Let's Play a Game: Rate my copy of Riven as if you were a WATA Grader

[RH | 4,904]

Please take a look at this game in the drive folder.  Try to give the images a good look and notice any flaws.  Specifically, notice on the back at the bottom of the seal that this game as some scraping (along the edge, under the "5 Discs" logo, as well as the "KIDS TO ADULTS" rating description.)

I'll provide more details after people post their votes, but I'd request you not joke-vote.  Try to take a couple of minutes and at least be thoughtful about what you think this deserves.

My reasons for asking is that I've had this game graded and I don't agree with the grading.  Wata reached out to me and asked me to return the game, they've reviewed it and stand by the grade.

I've talked about this item before and I think I've both mentioned the grade and shown zoomed in defects of the item.  If you remember those details, try to be objective.  If you don't, I'll provide the saga of this item and my thoughts in a week or so.  Thanks guys, I appreciate your honest opinions on where you'd rate this item with what you can see.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-np17jI0fe-UEySrQoIkCwsOez8wUo-d?usp=sharing

Edited September 16, 2022 by RH

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

Do you have pictures of the four sides, as well? Impossible to do without those. 

[RH | 4,904]

Just now, ExplodedHamster said:

Do you have pictures of the four sides, as well? Impossible to do without those. 

I understand but I don't this game is in cased and these are the only pre-graded photos I have, which Wata took.  Grade from the front and back, and assume the sides are comparable.  I will say, there was no noticeable damage on the sides when I had it.  Other then some very faint scuffing only available from a side lighting, this seal and the game looked perfect to me to the naked eye.

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

2 minutes ago, RH said:

I understand but I don't this game is in cased and these are the only pre-graded photos I have, which Wata took.  Grade from the front and back, and assume the sides are comparable.  I will say, there was no noticeable damage on the sides when I had it.  Other then some very faint scuffing only available from a side lighting, this seal and the game looked perfect to me to the naked eye.

Interesting. When was the game graded?

Edited August 10, 2022 by ExplodedHamster

[RH | 4,904]

Just now, ExplodedHamster said:

WATA takes pics from all 6 sides, does it not? Or was this graded a long time ago before they took 6 sided?

I don't think so, no.  I got this in the mail Q2 this year, but they had had it since early December 2020.  They posted the photos long before I got the game back.  That might have been Q4 2021, but they hadn't had it a full year.  I honestly don't know when they took the photos, but I do know it took them a long time to take the photos and then I still had to wait a long time to get my game graded and back.

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

1 minute ago, RH said:

I don't think so, no.  I got this in the mail Q2 this year, but they had had it since early December 2020.  They posted the photos long before I got the game back.  That might have been Q4 2021, but they hadn't had it a full year.  I honestly don't know when they took the photos, but I do know it took them a long time to take the photos and then I still had to wait a long time to get my game graded and back.

Got it. Yeah, I think they might have just done front and back at that time. Now it's all 6 sides. I will say that I see something there at the bottom. Certainly the seal is torn in two places and perhaps the box itself is cracked, but it's impossible to tell without holding the game in hand. Likewise, given I can see that go onto the bottom, it's really difficult to estimate a guess on the overall grade without seeing the entire thing. With those bottom seal tears and scuffing, I'm guessing you're looking in the A/B+ range? Box is the one I really can't tell because I can't tell if it's at all cracked. Even a minor crack, you're probably down around a 9.0/9.2 or so?

Sorry, it's really tough lol. 

[RH | 4,904]

1 minute ago, ExplodedHamster said:

Got it. Yeah, I think they might have just done front and back at that time. Now it's all 6 sides. I will say that I see something there at the bottom. Certainly the seal is torn in two places and perhaps the box itself is cracked, but it's impossible to tell without holding the game in hand. Likewise, given I can see that go onto the bottom, it's really difficult to estimate a guess on the overall grade without seeing the entire thing. With those bottom seal tears and scuffing, I'm guessing you're looking in the A/B+ range? Box is the one I really can't tell because I can't tell if it's at all cracked. Even a minor crack, you're probably down around a 9.0/9.2 or so?

Sorry, it's really tough lol. 

No problem, and to be clear, the box is not cracked.  Also, you see the damage I was trying to point out on the seal.  This game was submitted and it wasn't in that condition when I submitted it because I wouldn't have submitted a game with that damage.  Regardless, thanks for the input.  I'm curious what the average consensus will be and your judgement already helps.

 

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

4 minutes ago, RH said:

No problem, and to be clear, the box is not cracked.  Also, you see the damage I was trying to point out on the seal.  This game was submitted and it wasn't in that condition when I submitted it because I wouldn't have submitted a game with that damage.  Regardless, thanks for the input.  I'm curious what the average consensus will be and your judgement already helps.

 

Got it, though it's odd that damage would happen before encapsulation. It's not like someone would drop it and cause that sort of damage. I wonder how it could have happened. 

If the box isn't cracked, the case seems fine from what I can see, though again it's always hard to say without seeing the entire thing or seeing stuff under a light. 

[Gloves | 11,779]

What kind of turnaround are you looking for on this grading service, and are you willing to bribe me?

[TDIRunner | 2,740]

Gloves sort of beat me to it, but I came here to say that I cannot give it a grade until I know whether or not you will allow my brother to sell it for you and he and I get a nice percentage of the sale.  That's important information that has a lot to do with the overall condition of the item.  

[a3quit4s | 4,100]

Based on the quality scale they have on their site, which is far from perfect: 9.4 box A seal. I could be being mislead by pictures so max would be 9.6 and still an A on the seal maybe even B+ because it looks rough. 
 

I’m far from an authority on grading games but I did take it seriously. 

[RH | 4,904]

Bump.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

Good thing im not a wata grader for you, i say 9.0 A seal, But I would possibly drop the a seal down lower if the artifacts on the front picture in the upper right and the bottom right are frayed or loose corners.

 

I can see a half moon looking thing in upper right, and a jagged looking thing on lower right (from front). Maybe its the pic or my phone or something.   Maybe a B because of the two scratches too. 
 

 But then again, I haven’t read their site to see what their grading reasoning is and I’m not actually a grader so yeah. 

[inasuma | 1,203]

It’s basically impossible to guess but I’d say at least a 9.4 if there are no cracks. 

I missed out a nice sealed big box earlier this year. Still punching myself lol

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,013]

It looks good I'd give it a 5

[DarkTone | 985]

If I was a WATA grader, it would get a 

"What Riven? We never got your Riven". 

[phart010 | 1,707]

This type of thing is exactly why I don’t trust grading companies. In my mind there’s just so many opportunities for the grading company employees (who likely also collect games) to do free condition upgrades on their sealed games. If they have something with a slight blemish, they just swap it out with your perfect copy. If you complain, they just say it happened during shipping. If you keep pursuing them, they just ask you to make an insurance claim. 
 

Doesn’t matter how much they assure you they have security measures in place to prevent shenanigans, when you actually work at any place day in and day out, you’ll start to figure out where the security vulnerabilities are

[RH | 4,904]

24 minutes ago, phart010 said:

This type of thing is exactly why I don’t trust grading companies. In my mind there’s just so many opportunities for the grading company employees (who likely also collect games) to do free condition upgrades on their sealed games. If they have something with a slight blemish, they just swap it out with your perfect copy. If you complain, they just say it happened during shipping. If you keep pursuing them, they just ask you to make an insurance claim. 
 

Doesn’t matter how much they assure you they have security measures in place to prevent shenanigans, when you actually work at any place day in and day out, you’ll start to figure out where the security vulnerabilities are

That’s not what happened.  I was a bit surprised. #Spoilers!

[RH | 4,904]

Well I dropped the ball on this follow up.  Jump to the TL;DR on this one at the bottom if you're not wanting to read this essay.

In late-November 2020 I submitted this copy of Riven.  I basically went for all the full features, but I submitted it on the slowest tier.  At that time, I was in no rush to get the game back quickly and "months" didn't sound like a problem. Also, the expose on Wata hadn't dropped and to my knowledge people weren't even yet reporting damaged games being returned.

I've mentioned this before but I had a near-pristine copy of Riven. They only reason I bought it was because I could see no flaws from what were eBay photos of about the best quality you can muster by their resolution standards.  I got the game, and other than light scuffing on the shrink wrap, it was in excellent shape.  I legit went over it very thoroughly because pinholes and other blemishes like that bother me.  I don't expect perfection but... close.

Many months later after I submitted my game, they finally posted their hosted photos, which is something I paid for.  Those are the linked photos and, as you can see, the bottom edge is damaged.  I learned a valuable lesson that I should take photos before submitting games but since I didn't, I just had to accept that Wata damaged my game and that was that.

After they took the photos and moved it to "Grading" status, it sat in the queue... and sat in the queue... and sat in the queue.  Eventually it was graded and shipped back to me.  To my surprise, it was graded a 9.6 with an A+ seal.

I don't know.  Maybe my personal standards are too high, but I thought this was actually an over-grading.  I had contacted them earlier and told them as soon as I saw the photos that I thought they damaged the game.  I dropped the support ticket because I didn't have proof, but I wanted to see how they would respond.  I was surprised to see that months later after it was graded, it was such a high grade.  I mean, this is a flaw that once you see, you can't unsee.  Maybe, maaaaaaybe some might say that an A grade of the seal is fine but certainly not an A+.  An A++ should be one with zero flaws, up to a certain standard.  Take out a magnifying glass in clear light and if there's no scuffs or scrapes, then give a game like that an A++.  A game like mine before the pinholes could be an A/A+ considering the minor scuffs that are visible to the naked eye, but an A+ in this condition I just couldn't agree to it.

This created an ethical problem for me.  As soon as I saw the pinholes, I knew I'd be selling the game and starting fresh.  I'd look for another sealed copy and get it graded.  But I didn't want to sell a game that was over-graded because it felt like false representation.  So... I contacted Wata support and told them my issue. 

I know, I know it may seem crazy that I'd contact them and basically say "I think you guys screwed up my game and THEN over graded it" but I'm a fair guy and I don't want to misrepresent my items.   I also didn't want to list this game and explicitly state "be sure to see the pinholes".  I just want to put it up on eBay AS-IS and let the buyer ask their own questions and do their own due diligence, but with an honest grade they can have an expectation of what condition this game might be in, that can't be seen from eBay photos.

Wata requested I send back the game and they'd verify the grade.  They also asked me questions about how I valued the game.  They questions were vague, so I told them where I would have valued the game with the current score if it was undamaged and where I valued the game in it's current condition, assuming they gave me a score reflective of the damage.  I wasn't expecting to be reimbursed the difference but I gave them my estimations anyway.

Rather quickly I got the game back after I shipped it to them and they responded in my support ticket telling me, basically, "Yep, we agree with our 9.6/A+ grade."

Ok, fine.  If they feel like that's a legit grade and it's their standards, people more familiar with their grading, I guess, have come to accept this standard of grading.  I don't want to sell someone less than what they expect, but I assume if Wata slacked on my game, they've slacked on many others. 

I'm going to throw this up on eBay and just see what happens.  I know this whole experience might sound a bit crazy to you all. Honestly, all I started out wanting was to experiment with getting my first game graded while entombing a piece of shelf-candy. As soon as it was damaged I lost interest in the piece and ethics and proper representation entered the equation.  IMHO, Wata is at best unbelievably sloppy at grading, or at worst they dole out grades in a way they hope will make people happy or get them to shut up.  Regardless, I'm disappointed more than anything.  Nearly two years of this nonsense and it's finally resolved but at what cost and I'm back at square-one.

Sorry for the rant.  I know most of us agree that Wata is pretty bad, but this was a bizarre case I felt was worth documenting considering it involves over-grading a game, which is a misrepresentation, even if it works to my benefit.

TL;DR:

I got a game graded through Wata.  Same as many others have complained, it took forever to get it back.  They also (probably) damaged my game, graded it  to high (9.6/A+) by probably most peoples standards and then had the audacity to stand by that grade in spite of obvious damage.

I now have a game I want to sell, but I feel a little dirty letting it go rated this high with this type of flaw.

[Makar | 1,946]

The bottom of it looks like there’s a rip in the seal?

[RH | 4,904]

17 hours ago, Makar said:

The bottom of it looks like there’s a rip in the seal?

Yes, exactly!  That's my complaint about the grade.  How is this an A+?

I don't know if you read the whole thing (which if fine, i know I'm long winded) but I sent it back for them to "verify" the grade and support explicitly told me that stand by 9.6/A+?!

The game might be a 9.6.  That's fine.  The scuffs you see appear to be on the shrink wrap and not the case.  Maybe a 9.8 is justifiable but I've not scrutinized the case.  The seal is far from perfect though. Definitely shouldn't be a second-highest rating by any grading company.

Edited September 15, 2022 by RH

[Makar | 1,946]

3 hours ago, RH said:

Yes, exactly!  That's my complaint about the grade.  How is this an A+?

I don't know if you read the whole thing (which if fine, i know I'm long winded) but I sent them back for them to "verify" the grade and support explicitly told me that stand by 9.6/A+?!

The game might be a 9/6.  That's fine.  The scuffs you see appear to be on the shrink wrap and not the case.  Maybe a 9.8 is justifiable but I've not scrutinized the case.  The seal is far from perfect though. Definitely shouldn't be a second-highest rating by any grading company.

Yea I read the TL/DR part and skimmed through the rest. Definitely not close to a perfect seal if there’s a rip in it even if it isn’t the biggest rip in the world. 

[phart010 | 1,707]

5 hours ago, Makar said:

Yea I read the TL/DR part and skimmed through the rest. Definitely not close to a perfect seal if there’s a rip in it even if it isn’t the biggest rip in the world. 

If they are overlooking rips in seals maybe I’ll grade this 

[RH | 4,904]

2 hours ago, phart010 said:

If they are overlooking rips in seals maybe I’ll grade this 

It’s a NES tape too, so that’s a minimum A.