General Current Events/Political Discussion

[Estil | 1,264]

1 hour ago, MrWunderful said:

I bet most of his followers dont even know what the WHO is. But in the USA, they have been saying to wear masks since March. Trump made it a pure political game. 

They do so know what The Who is!  

They even know Who's on first base!  

 

[Estil | 1,264]

54 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

On another note, I watched the film "The Problem with Apu" tonight, after work, in part due to this thread.

From the film I watched, one of the common points was that during the initial time of The Simpsons, there weren't really any other shows featuring Indian individuals, therefore any idea about India was seen by the stereotypical Apu character, contrast that with the stereotypical Italian in the show, etc. 

Now with more Indians in the media, it does feel a bit SJW-ish to me, since one of the key points as to why this is so offensive, compared to the other offensive stereotypes, doesn't even hold true anymore. Then pair it with the fact that accents are not passed on ethnically, accents are not passed on ethnically. 

Now the main Indian stereotype (that's India indians, not the Native American kind) are those call centers.  I mean here you have a country of over a billion people, who helped give us our modern base-10 number system (called Hindu-Arabic numerals) as well as chess among other things...but now all most Americans know about India is those stupid call centers (and believe it or not, most American Indians don't like them anymore than the rest of us...you know them being a flagrant walking stereotype and all that)  I especially cant stand the ones who lie and try to give themselves an "American name"    At least Apu was a very likable fun character....I mean I don't recall anyone having an unkind thing to say about him (the character not the guy playing him; I mean in the pre-Internet days who would've known?).

[spacepup | 2,404]

2 hours ago, fcgamer said:

It's hard to make it purely political when it was already made purely political before it even got to him.

Yeah, I know it's hard to accept, but the virus was already purely political before it even arrived in the USA, and it was because of Tedros, China, and the WHO. 

When the torch arrives in my hands, I have the power as the new torchbearer to guide what happens next.  I can blame the past or the previous one, for any issues, but if there's something, ANYTHING, I can do, to keep the flame alive, I'll try to do whatever I can.

Pardon the analogy - but that is sort of how I see this situation.  When you sign up for being president of the USA, you accept an immense amount of responsibility, including making an oath to the office and to the public.  His divisiveness and lack of clear and calm communication this entire year, I see as an incredibly disappointing failure of leadership.  

As president, your words, your lack of words, your actions, your inaction, are all judged constantly.  And of course that's an immense burden to bear.  I would never sign up for that.  But he did.  He made the bold claim that he is best suited to hold one of the most powerful positions on the planet.  But a true leader in this situation, would absorb the petty criticisms, and continue to pledge forward with the incredibly important challenges we are facing.  He can't handle that, and constantly lashes out at anyone and everyone who criticizes him in any way, spending a lot of energy trying to protect his ego and reputation, or calling out people who disagree with him. 

Here are some more statements, from our president, within literally the last 2 days:

"95% Approval Rating of President Trump in the Republican Party. I would imagine the 5% are the RINOS’ and stupid people who don’t want to see great Judges & Supreme Court Justice’s, a new & powerful Military, Choice for Vets, 2A Protection, big RegulationCuts, Life, & much more!"

"Sorry to inform the Do Nothing Democrats, but I am getting VERY GOOD internal Polling Numbers. Just like 2016, the @nytimes Polls are Fake! The @FoxNews Polls are a JOKE! Do you think they will apologize to me & their subscribers AGAIN when I WIN? People want LAW, ORDER & SAFETY!"

We're dealing with a global pandemic, and mounting civil unrest regarding racial tensions - and the above is what I am seeing every. single. day. from our president.  It is a barrage of attacks, interspersed with sharing every single article, comment, or video, about how great he is.  THIS IS A PROBLEM.  As I said before, WE DESERVE BETTER.  If, hypothetically, Biden becomes president, and we face similar issues, and he acts in this manner, I will absolutely call him out on it.   

 

  

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

He doesn't admit when he was wrong and he never takes responsibility for any situation. Besides the racist/sexist/etc stuff, those are the two things I hate about him the most.

[spacepup | 2,404]

And despite everything I said, and as strongly as I feel about it - I also know that just complaining or ranting about it isn't going to be all that productive.  I do try not to go out of my way to constantly badger him as it doesn't really accomplish much.

What I can do, is just try to be calm, inform myself as much as possible, and try to make the best decision I can regarding how I can help - whether that is by voting for who I think is better (or less bad, however you look at it), or whether that is trying to be involved more locally.

While he does have a lot of power and responsibility for how things go here, there is also lot that we as individuals, and our own communities, local and state governments, can do to impact the situation, on many different topics and in so many ways.

We do need, in my opinion, to all try to channel our anger in constructive ways, when possible, and help each other get through this.  

 

[cartman | 195]

10 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

So basically you're saying anyone can make any offensive, racist statement and whoever is offended should just shut up about it.

No.

Come on, if you yourself are offended by something (and you clearly cane be), you're going to spout off. You're clearly not "dealing with your feelings" the way you expect them to, you're making your statement known to the world. You're not logging off and shutting up.

They have the same right you do.

 

They're the ones being singled out with an offensive representation of their culture. They have a stake in this.

There's a point where you have to be a fucking human being and consider other people. There's a point where you take into consideration what you are doing. There's a point where you decide what comedy you want to do and what line you won't cross.

The Simpsons creators found that line.

They decided to do something about it.

You don't like it.

That's fine.

And I disagree with you.

That's fine, too.

But it's not the end of counterculture. They'll find new things to poke fun at.

You'll have to go find other sources for your offensive humor.

One aspect of him was offensive to a group of people and they corrected it. It wasn't him not being treated like a person, it was the group he represented, with is aspect being part of many microagressions that add up. The creators of the Simpsons took one microagression away.

AGAIN, HIS CHARACTER IS STILL AROUND.

And I'm fine with it.

You're acting like they shut the Simpsons, South Park, and all other shows you like.

Quirks are fine. Offensive accents, on the other hand, have been used to dehumanize people for centuries.

Again, they corrected one thing. Everything else he does can still be there.

The core of the show was quirky, unexpected humor.

We can debate if it still has that, but losing Apu's voice actor is NOT what may have changed the humor.

Again, the creators themselves made a conscious decision to correct an aspect, and they probably do not identify with "WE'RE GOING TO INSULT PEOPLE WITH RACIST CARICATURES!" That's never been a part of the show. Ever.

You're so wrapped up in this crusade against PC culture and wanting to preserve really offensive stereotypes that you really going down this path.

Selling out? It's not like SJWs are some cabal or monolithic block. You probably think they are because all your precious shows and their offensive humor are going away.

Well maybe not base your humor on that and find other things that are funny. Surely you do.

We're regulating racist stereotypes to the ashcan of history. It's not going to happen overnight, but it will progress this way. We're not regressing anything.

But you keep fighting your good fight, where racist stereotypes are free to be flung upon the masses and no one can speak up against them.

What's wrong with just not watching something? That's what i do when i am offended  i don't feel the need for it to be shut down i can just not participate. Or when someone said something that i feel is off. Why does the whole world need to listen when X gets offended? Everyone gets offended but you can't just keep adapting to everyone.

Their personal opinion is not every Indians opinion so their stake is still very limited. They are the ones that bothered bugging the Simpson's creators but there was no vote count and nobody put them forth as their representative. And even if it is your race you still don't get some kind of "copyright" on being what you are and nobody else gets to depict you. 

You argument is still no better than "think of the children" or "we need to protect the families" or some shit like that in regards to the Simpsons getting into a controversy. They could've appologized to the conservatives at that time like they're doing now to the regressive left and the reason that they didn't is why the Simpsons kept it's format. You have no case to denounce them getting their way because you support the idea of catering it's just that the motives are different.

So they should've just ignored those complaints about Apu and stuck to their artistic vision and their artistic rights to keep doing what they were. Wouldn't even have to je insulting you know just, "we disagree with the notion..." or something like that. 

What do you mean "the group he represented"? It's just one character with his own traits, anyone drawing broad conclusions that he's a representation for a whole collective well that's on them. There was no "microaggression" taking place there was a character with his own set of quirks and there are others with theirs, many much worse than his if he we look at them. But it's a comedy show there be something that sticks out or else there is no purpose. Not everyone can be bald, fat, or dumb in an endless roster of similar characters and one of his trademark quirks just so happened to be the voice and dialects. But that doesn't automatically make it racist just because race is involved.

The core of the show was flawed people many times doing inappropriate things but they still have a heart to them. Something along those lines. It's not an amoral show as such but people do inappropriate things and they're not over-moralised when they happen. It's not preachy, like when Bart ditches/doesn't give a fuck about school. The Apu situation and how they handle it tilt's it toward preachy and especially because the character doesn't even stand out as particularly offensive compared to how many others behave.

Isn't the whole point of racism this thing about not judging people on based on their character? But look this benign and friendly character is brown so let's make a whole fucking spectacle of how problematic everything is.

[Tabonga | 2,317]

2 hours ago, fcgamer said:

It's an available option, yes, but the pizza this Canadian guy says is the "American" pizza is a combination of pepperoni (not peppers, the red, round meat thingies) and mushrooms. I personally like my pizza with anchovies.

But if ordering for a large group of people, at least in my area, the preferred choices were always either plain cheese, or pepperoni, not pepperoni and mushrooms. 

Pepperoni is a thing on American pizza - probably the most popular meat on pizza if you are gonna have meat.  (Just a guess here - I am sure that info is available somewhere.)

So a pepperoni and mushroom pizza certainly seems American to me - although I usually add Canadian bacon, sausage and extra cheese.  

Anchovies are availabe at some (but not all pizza places) but I don't think I have ever seen a pizza place that didn't offer pepperoni* and/or mushrooms.  

*The (very) rare vegararian  pizza places   will obviously eschew the pepperoni option.  

 

[Reed Rothchild | 9,521]

9 minutes ago, spacepup said:

And despite everything I said, and as strongly as I feel about it - I also know that just complaining or ranting about it isn't going to be all that productive.  I do try not to go out of my way to constantly badger him as it doesn't really accomplish much.

What I can do, is just try to be calm, inform myself as much as possible, and try to make the best decision I can regarding how I can help - whether that is by voting for who I think is better (or less bad, however you look at it), or whether that is trying to be involved more locally.

While he does have a lot of power and responsibility for how things go here, there is also lot that we as individuals, and our own communities, local and state governments, can do to impact the situation, on many different topics and in so many ways.

We do need, in my opinion, to all try to channel our anger in constructive ways, when possible, and help each other get through this.  

He's never accountable for anything, he will never try to unite Americans (we could have another 9/11 tomorrow and his first tweet would blame Democrats), and I have serious concerns about us doing anything constructive and helpful for one another.  Possibly ever again.

If Biden wins he's gonna have to start figuring that shit out, because at this point I fear it's already well beyond the point of no return.

[Hammerfestus | 3,837]

2 hours ago, fcgamer said:

I personally like my pizza with anchovies.

Your opinion is bad and you should feel bad.  Maybe forced to live on an island somewhere.

X, Y, and/or Z AND mushrooms should almost always be on a pizza.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,521]

I love anchovies and I hate mushrooms.  Discuss.  

[Hammerfestus | 3,837]

Just now, Reed Rothchild said:

I love anchovies and I hate mushrooms.  Discuss.  

Monster.

[Tulpa | 3,492]

I feel we're talking in circles at this point.

But I'm not giving up, because this is important.

21 minutes ago, cartman said:

What's wrong with just not watching something? That's what i do when i am offended  i don't feel the need for it to be shut down i can just not participate.

When it perpetuates stereotypes, it allows others to perpetuate stereotypes. Then there's no escaping it.

Sitting by while your culture gets insulted day after day is a terrible way to live.

Actively speaking up gets change. Change for the better.

You're just wanting the old stereotypes to continue, for some reason. Maybe you find them funny.

 

21 minutes ago, cartman said:

Or when someone said something that i feel is off. Why does the whole world need to listen when X gets offended? Everyone gets offended but you can't just keep adapting to everyone.

How is EVERYONE getting offended? This is just one little aspect that they changed.

The whole world needs to learn that some things are unacceptable.

Not everything grinds to a halt and you know it. They just make little corrections.

21 minutes ago, cartman said:

Their personal opinion is not every Indians opinion so their stake is still very limited.

It's still a substantial amount. And who are you to say their stake in their culture is limited?

21 minutes ago, cartman said:

They are the ones that bothered bugging the Simpson's creators but there was no vote count and nobody put them forth as their representative. And even if it is your race you still don't get some kind of "copyright" on being what you are and nobody else gets to depict you. 

It's your very identity when you're in that culture.

What makes you a human being.

And now some white dudes are putting up what represents your culture.

I'd say if the tables were turned, you'd feel offended. You may or may not speak up, and that's your prerogative, but people don't have to just sit there and like it.

If someone, anyone is offended, we have to at least listen.

Then decide what action should be taken.

That's what the creators of the Simpsons did.

21 minutes ago, cartman said:

You argument is still no better than "think of the children" or "we need to protect the families" or some shit like that in regards to the Simpsons getting into a controversy.

Those arguments are not rooted in a cultural identity. This is about a culture day after day portrayed on TV, and they wanted it portrayed the right way.

And again, THE CREATORS AGREED WITH IT.

21 minutes ago, cartman said:

They could've appologized to the conservatives at that time like they're doing now to the regressive left and the reason that they didn't is why the Simpsons kept it's format. You have no case to denounce them getting their way because you support the idea of catering it's just that the motives are different.

No, the conservative thing was different. It wasn't some cultural identity like this was. It wasn't one thing representing a group of people.

This aspect of Apu was something that many Indians were uncomfortable with, the show listened and obliged. And now you're jumping up and down about how it's some great regression.

21 minutes ago, cartman said:

So they should've just ignored those complaints about Apu and stuck to their artistic vision and their artistic rights to keep doing what they were. Wouldn't even have to je insulting you know just, "we disagree with the notion..." or something like that.

Yeah, ignore human beings' concerns while putting up a representation of their culture.

Simpsons is an all inclusive brand. They want to make sure they're treating human beings as human beings.

Saying "Eh, your concerns are not worth addressing" is a shitty way of treating people.

When did basic human decency become "selling out"?

21 minutes ago, cartman said:

What do you mean "the group he represented"? It's just one character with his own traits, anyone drawing broad conclusions that he's a representation for a whole collective well that's on them.

The people he was representing on TV day after day saw that as "This is what we think of you." Some of it was good, one aspect wasn't. They asked for it to be changed.

The creators did.

The creators acted like decent people.

21 minutes ago, cartman said:

There was no "microaggression" taking place there was a character with his own set of quirks and there are others with theirs, many much worse than his if he we look at them.

None of those other quirks were a cultural identity. Represented by a white dude.

21 minutes ago, cartman said:

But it's a comedy show there be something that sticks out or else there is no purpose. Not everyone can be bald, fat, or dumb in an endless roster of similar characters and one of his trademark quirks just so happened to be the voice and dialects

When it's a cultural identity, that's when it ceases to be a quirk and moves into a potential racial stereotype. The creators acted to correct that misstep.

Apu still has all his other quirks.

21 minutes ago, cartman said:

But that doesn't automatically make it racist just because race is involved.

It does when you have a white dude making his representation of that race.

21 minutes ago, cartman said:

The core of the show was flawed people many times doing inappropriate things but they still have a heart to them. Something along those lines. It's not an amoral show as such but people do inappropriate things and they're not over-moralised when they happen. It's not preachy, like when Bart ditches/doesn't give a fuck about school.

Sure, and none of that needs a white guy doing a fake Indian accent.

The show will go on without that aspect now.

21 minutes ago, cartman said:

The Apu situation and how they handle it tilt's it toward preachy and especially because the character doesn't even stand out as particularly offensive compared to how many others behave.

Again, the other stuff isn't part of a cultural identity. This was.

Then the jettisoned it.

And now the show can go back to doing what it does. For better or for worse.

21 minutes ago, cartman said:

Isn't the whole point of racism this thing about not judging people on based on their character?

That was what was happening, and the show corrected for it.

21 minutes ago, cartman said:

But look this benign and friendly character is brown so let's make a whole fucking spectacle of how problematic everything is.

Again, APU IS STILL ON THE SHOW.

They just had the white dude voicing him go do something else.

You're still acting like they pulled it and every other funny show off the air.

That didn't happen.

They corrected one offensive thing and you're acting like you lost the culture war.

We as human beings make corrections all the time. It's what makes us human.

We need to evolve as a species, drop these crude, offensive, not-that-funny aspects of comedy and keep with what is truly funny.

There are plenty of things to make fun of in this world. Your precious South Park is one doing it right. So are many others.

We're not going to lose comedy just because Azaria and the Simpsons creators decided to be decent people and address a concern.

We're not becoming bland people. We're making the right decisions to make us all better.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Tulpa

[fcgamer | 4,723]

7 minutes ago, Hammerfestus said:

Your opinion is bad and you should feel bad.  Maybe forced to live on an island somewhere.

X, Y, and/or Z AND mushrooms should almost always be on a pizza.

I'm already living on an island somewhere

From a quick google search, it seems pepperoni is an easy first, with mushrooms, onions (ick) and sausage falling into second and third places. Maybe you guys always order special pizzas with pepperoni and mushrooms, but in my area, everyone I knew got pepperoni by itself, and maybe a cheese for folks that didn't like pepperoni. 

[Tulpa | 3,492]

16 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

If Biden wins he's gonna have to start figuring that shit out, because at this point I fear it's already well beyond the point of no return.

I personally think that a lot of things we're seeing brought out in the open have always been there.

But I also feel we're a strong country, and we'll weather this. It won't be easy, but there are enough decent people out there.

I just wish that it was easier for many of them to vote.

[spacepup | 2,404]

I haven't given up.  I'll never give up.  

Re: pizza, I already got some shade in discord over this, but one of my favorite pizzas has carrots, peanuts, chili-sauce, and cilantro.  And it is A M A Z I N G!

Maybe the type of pizza differs, or the toppings on it differ, but see!  We can find some commonalities in our love for pizza.  There is always hope.

[Tabonga | 2,317]

4 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

I'm already living on an island somewhere

 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

Throw in a barrel of rum and that looks like a pretty nice life.

[Hammerfestus | 3,837]

Yarr.  What would ye do with a drunken sailor... Early in the morning?

[Jono1874 | 144]

1 hour ago, Reed Rothchild said:

He's never accountable for anything, he will never try to unite Americans (we could have another 9/11 tomorrow and his first tweet would blame Democrats), and I have serious concerns about us doing anything constructive and helpful for one another.  Possibly ever again.

If Biden wins he's gonna have to start figuring that shit out, because at this point I fear it's already well beyond the point of no return.

I don't think we're beyond the point of no return. I think that a win for literally anyone that isn't Trump will placate people enough.

 

Given how easy social media has made it for the average person to be a vitriolic psycho, I could be horribly wrong and everyone will just move on to something else to shill for/hate on.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

I saw this and figured that I'd leave it here. Maybe it will help some people understand.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,521]

1 hour ago, Jono1874 said:

I don't think we're beyond the point of no return. I think that a win for literally anyone that isn't Trump will placate people enough.

 

Given how easy social media has made it for the average person to be a vitriolic psycho, I could be horribly wrong and everyone will just move on to something else to shill for/hate on.

If Trump loses we're gonna have a significant number of people in this country who are convinced the"radical Marxist mentally ill liberals" are gonna destroy us all.  Right wing social media and the Breitbarts of the world are gonna whip them into a frenzy.

And if the Rs still have the Senate, they're gonna work mostly to appease their base: stopping everything that comes their way from the Democrats.

The next 4 years are gonna be dysfunctional as hell, at best 

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

3 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

If Trump loses we're gonna have a significant number of people in this country who are convinced the"radical Marxist mentally ill liberals" are gonna destroy us all.  Right wing social media and the Breitbarts of the world are gonna whip them into a frenzy.

And if the Rs still have the Senate, they're gonna work mostly to appease their base: stopping everything that comes their way from the Democrats.

The next 4 years are gonna be dysfunctional as hell, at best 

I'm sadly expecting this to be the case no matter who wins.

[Tabonga | 2,317]

15 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

If Trump loses we're gonna have a significant number of people in this country who are convinced the"radical Marxist mentally ill liberals" are gonna destroy us all.

And if the Rs still have the Senate, they're gonna work mostly to appease their base: stopping everything that comes their way from the Democrats.

The next 4 years are gonna be dysfunctional as hell, at best 

And I suspect things will get really nasty if Trump wins again - there are still elements that are convinced his election was cheating somehow. Combined with the recent mania for burning/destroying/defacing things it may not be pretty.

They (an R Senate)  will have the perfect example to follow  given the relative non-cooperative perfomance of the House for the last 2 years.  

And we could wind up with either party sweeping all three.  Way too early given these tumultuous times to predict what is going to happen.  (And most people's predictions are based on what they want to happen rather than any basis in reality.)

As the old (falsely attributed) saying goes "may you live in interesting times".  We be there!

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Tabonga

[Reed Rothchild | 9,521]

2 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

And I suspect things will get really nasty if Trump wins again - there are still elements that are convinced his election was cheating somehow. Combined with the recent mania for burning/destroying/defacing things it may not be pretty.

They (an R Senate)  will have the perfect example to follow  given the relative non-cooperative perfomance of the House for the last 2 years.  

And we could wind up with either party sweeping all three.  Way too early given these tumultuous times to predict what is going to happen.  (And most people's predictions are based on what they want to happen rather than any basis in reality.)

As the old (falsely attributed) saying goes "may you live in interesting times".  We be there!

 

See, that's kinda what I'm talking about.  Always a compulsion to say "but the liberals!". You probably don't even notice it.  Neither side does 

I specifically mentioned the possible fallout of a Biden win because I was replying to Jonos post.

But you are correct.  Either way it's gonna be complete dysfunction.  Tit for tat.  Trying to defeat the enemy instead of working together.  Pointing fingers.  Nothing matters anymore but winning.  But this isn't a game that can ever be won. 

[Tabonga | 2,317]

19 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

See, that's kinda what I'm talking about.  Always a compulsion to say "but the liberals!". You probably don't even notice it.  Neither side does 

I specifically mentioned the possible fallout of a Biden win because I was replying to Jonos post.

But you are correct.  Either way it's gonna be complete dysfunction.  Tit for tat.  Trying to defeat the enemy instead of working together.  Pointing fingers.  Nothing matters anymore but winning.  But this isn't a game that can ever be won. 

We are talking about potential outcomes - so think branch logic here - possible reactions to possible outcomes are just that,  I did notice the liberals bit - but to be honest with you I am not sure what that means anymore - certainly different than what we covered in polisci in my day. If there are really nasty reactions to a Trump victory* it will be from the element that already thinks it is a neat idea to loot, riot and burn things - not what I would call liberal,

For whatever reason democratically based systems of government almost invariably get caught in a nasty trap where both "sides" have about 1/2 of the voting constituencies and wind up in situations much like we have today.  From what I can tell parlimentary systems are even worse in that regard.

*On the bright side if that happens we might get to  see Martha Raddatz cry on national tv again.  That was certainly precious.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Tabonga