dale_coop | 171 Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 (edited) Just in case, someone missed that article shared on Twitter: Much has been written about this article. Many reactions, comments and suggestions. Everyone has an opinion on the subject (check the replies under the twitter topic). Yesterday @SoleGoose posted his response to Seth Abramson: Sadly, Seth took that response as a personal attack against his work. And after a lot of messages, this drama ended like this: I really hope it will not end here. Because the article was not good but modifications could have been done and fix a lot of the main issues. For information, the original article has been archived here: https://archive.is/QCi8sUpdate on January 14th: Seth Abramson posted a news announcing the coming back of his TOP article : Edited January 14, 2022 by dale_coop 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OptOut | 9,078 Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 Lol, what a character! Come back Seth, I miss you!!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a3quit4s | 4,424 Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 I went to read the article and missed the rest of the post until I came back because the page wasn’t found. So much drama these days ffs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvertov | 211 Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 We did a bit about this on our podcast. Here's the blog page. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Code Monkey | 2,184 Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 Journalist? Hardly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fcgamer | 5,034 Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 I hate to admit it, but I agree with Goosey on a large portion of his thoughts; however, there are a few things on which I disagree. First off, Goosey states that Seth's list ranks lesser and unknown titles higher than some homebrew staples, and he's none too pleased. That being said, I don't think it should be in Goosey's position to decide what is and isn't a "lesser" homebrew title, considering he is making that stuff himself. Honestly not a good look, and if we really want to bring up crap, iirc he stated on NA that he was tickled to see anyone making homebrew stuff, even if it weren't great in quality, before admitting to shoddy products himself. Times have changed, but I still don't find it right for homebrew guys to be judging other hobbyists works as shoddy or not. Regarding the rom requirement Seth has, I sort of understand it. One of the bits I really hate about the homebrew scene is that you gotta jump through flaming hoops just to purchase games, even if there is a demand. If the person doesn't want to make it available aside from a limited edition that sells out immediately, with hundreds disappointed, then imo the game doesn't deserve a place on the list, info other offering is to be made available. Yeah, it's the designers choice, but it's also the authors choice about what to include on his top 100 list 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkchylde28 | 1,546 Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 32 minutes ago, fcgamer said: Times have changed, but I still don't find it right for homebrew guys to be judging other hobbyists works as shoddy or not. I somewhat disagree here. While I get what you're saying about it being a vector for conflict of interest, at the same time, who better to be able to spot actual "shoddiness" in homebrew software than a fellow developer? Things like whether a game is worthwhile to play, looks good, etc., are subjective, but things like (and I'm taking an educated stab in the dark here, as I don't and haven't ever developed such things, so forgive me if I miss the technical mark a bit) sprite flicker, memory management, etc., most likely can be easily spotted and called out by fellow developers. However, I don't think that those throwing stones at other developers should be immune to similar criticism, or be prevented from offering such criticism if they, too, provided similar shoddy work previously. And, honestly, if someone is throwing stones and it's unwarranted, an internet mob will come by sooner rather than later to deluge them if that's the case. TLDR, I think it's ok for there to be critiques from a technical perspective, even if the critic has been guilty in the past, so long as it's valid, and if it's not, it'll sort itself out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Morbis | 2,122 Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 (edited) I sort of understand the whole no ROM = no ranking argument (though I personally disagree with it), but I just cannot fathom his continual connection with mobile games. He states that mobile cell phone games are the future of NES dev and homebrews like it's a foregone conclusion. What on earth do the two really have to do with each other? Has a single NES homebrewer ever made an NES game because he wanted to encourage people to play games on their phones?!? I mean, if someone wants to develop mobile games, he'll develop mobile games; what on God's green earth does the NES have to do with that? (Other than the apparent reality that this dude only plays NES games on his cell phone). He even goes so far as to mention that the "almighty" Pat the NES Punk agrees that mobile games are the future of NES!?! Am I crazy or does mobile gaming have absolutely nothing to with modern NES game development? Like, are there people out there staring down at their phones thinking, "man, I am soooo bored with all these mobile games - I wish I could find an NES ROM to save me from these doldrums...." TOTALLY BIZARRE!!! Edited January 13, 2022 by Dr. Morbis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fcgamer | 5,034 Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 @Dr. MorbisMobile games and NES go together like sealed games and sports cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dale_coop | 171 Posted January 13, 2022 Author Share Posted January 13, 2022 Yeah, I don't really understand that "play on mobile phone" thing. I hate mobile games so much >_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkchylde28 | 1,546 Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 I can view the "mobile gaming" statement presented above (haven't read the article, and don't really intend to for the time being) in a couple of ways. A bunch of the more visible homebrew games that immediately come to mind for me are basically clones of very simple games that have been cloned a bunch on mobile phones for quite a long time. Now, granted, I'm not any sort of homebrew guru or collector, so my exposure is mostly minimal, and I'm sure lots of more complicated stuff exists. However, from an outside-looking-in perspective (representing the general public versus dedicated homebrew enthusiasts), I think this is an easy statement to make, even if becomes less true the deeper down the rabbit hole you go. Looking at it from another angle, NES homebrew developers' games are often simple enough that they could most likely be ported to more mobile platforms fairly easily (already done several times, in the case of the Nintendo Switch). With this in mind, instead of dedicated homebrew developers having (most often) a limited run of cartridges as their sole source of income on a title, they could take the time and effort to port their completed game to various mobile platforms (iOS, Android, Switch, etc.), open them up for sale in those marketplaces, and reap more profit over time (either as income for the developer or to be reinvested directly in future homebrew projects). Based solely on what has been presented in this thread, that blurb sounds much less like the author is suggesting homebrew developers move on to greener pastures, but moreso either making a comment on the type of source material that many uncomplicated homebrews are inspired by or further areas where they could distribute their works with (most likely) fairly minimal effort. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Morbis | 2,122 Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 10 hours ago, darkchylde28 said: I can view the "mobile gaming" statement presented above (haven't read the article, and don't really intend to for the time being) in a couple of ways. A bunch of the more visible homebrew games that immediately come to mind for me are basically clones of very simple games that have been cloned a bunch on mobile phones for quite a long time. Now, granted, I'm not any sort of homebrew guru or collector, so my exposure is mostly minimal, and I'm sure lots of more complicated stuff exists. However, from an outside-looking-in perspective (representing the general public versus dedicated homebrew enthusiasts), I think this is an easy statement to make, even if becomes less true the deeper down the rabbit hole you go. Looking at it from another angle, NES homebrew developers' games are often simple enough that they could most likely be ported to more mobile platforms fairly easily (already done several times, in the case of the Nintendo Switch). With this in mind, instead of dedicated homebrew developers having (most often) a limited run of cartridges as their sole source of income on a title, they could take the time and effort to port their completed game to various mobile platforms (iOS, Android, Switch, etc.), open them up for sale in those marketplaces, and reap more profit over time (either as income for the developer or to be reinvested directly in future homebrew projects). Based solely on what has been presented in this thread, that blurb sounds much less like the author is suggesting homebrew developers move on to greener pastures, but moreso either making a comment on the type of source material that many uncomplicated homebrews are inspired by or further areas where they could distribute their works with (most likely) fairly minimal effort. I definitely understand the need or desire to want to monetize all the hard work one has already put into a project like a NES homebrew by making sure they are easily port-able to the mobile world and other such outlets, but if making money is one's main focus, surely he'd be better served by just skipping the limited and archaic architecture of the NES altogether and just straight-up coding a mobile game on a moderm platform to begin with, no? If you're trying to make a NES game, but you've got one eye on it's port-ability to mobile throughout the whole process, you're pretty much limiting the genre and scope of the project you're working on. It just seems like the classic "have your cake and eat it too" conundrum. This paradigm would work great for one screen puzzle games and a few other genres, but not for any of the major stuff the NES is actually known for (platformers, action/adventure, shooters, etc). In fact, to do a NES homebrew justice and also maximize my profit, I would skip mobile altogether and do what the Micro Mages release did: full physical CIB NES release, and then they also coded an emulator for their ROM to work on Steam (and maybe other modern platforms too, I dunno???) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dale_coop | 171 Posted January 14, 2022 Author Share Posted January 14, 2022 The homebrew dev goal is not to sell games... but just to make a game by himself for the physical console he loves (NES?), just for fun or by challenge ! The rom is a way to share (for free or a small fee) the games with other homebrew lovers that can't afford the physical release or missed the window. I would say it's the indie dev that wants to sell games and should try to show his games on every popular mobile platforms. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dale_coop | 171 Posted January 14, 2022 Author Share Posted January 14, 2022 OH, some news arrived this morning... I will add them to the original post... but: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkchylde28 | 1,546 Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 12 hours ago, dale_coop said: The homebrew dev goal is not to sell games... but just to make a game by himself for the physical console he loves (NES?), just for fun or by challenge ! The rom is a way to share (for free or a small fee) the games with other homebrew lovers that can't afford the physical release or missed the window. I would say it's the indie dev that wants to sell games and should try to show his games on every popular mobile platforms. I see what you're saying, but too many times I've seen "pure" homebrew developers deliberately do extremely limited runs, often at incredibly hiked prices in the NA days, with zero thought or willingness of selling or releasing a ROM of their efforts for those who didn't have enough for a physical copy, missed the window, etc. If those folks aren't doing it at least on some level to make money, then I'm a monkey's uncle. The actual "true" homebrew developer that you're describing is rare indeed, and generally don't keep putting out releases over time--it's most often a one-and-done affair, seeing as they're doing it for the fun/challange of it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrobins | 1,844 Moderator · Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 13 hours ago, dale_coop said: OH, some news arrived this morning... I will add them to the original post... but: I'm not sure this is true though. None of the posts from anyone in response to Seth's tweets asked for a "massive compendium of what's available", in fact Seth's own article included several links to existing such compendiums (including to my threads here (which is also why you should take what I say with a grain of salt, because I'm biased and defending what I worked hard to create)). Power to him if he wants to make one of his own, but no one (publicly) asked him for one, and if he's saying that to justify making one, he's intentionally lying that there aren't any already. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fcgamer | 5,034 Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 @Scrobins for president! Your enthusiasm and work will always shine in comparison to whatever shite this joker is doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrobins | 1,844 Moderator · Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 And for the sake of saying it here as well as where I said it on Twitter then: my issue with the list was that Seth banged readers over the head with his journalistic credentials and carefully curated methodology for what he presented as a “definitive” list, only to include several games that violate his own eligibility rules, indicating that despite his credentials, his research wasn’t as thorough as he claimed it was. It just seems pretentious to have an air of “homebrew should be grateful I grace it with my attention and followers because I’m a big deal.” If he had just said “hey I found this really cool community and I am having fun exploring it, here’s what I like”, there wouldn’t have been any blowback. My other problem was that in addition to the above, he hadn’t done (to the best of my knowledge) any engagement with people in the homebrew scene. If it’s a journalistic piece, he should be talking to devs and fans in order to establish the basis for his observations. If it’s just a list then he doesn’t need any of that, but then again he also doesn’t need to be overcompensating with his “I teach video games at the university level” mantra. I honestly think that at first people were really excited by the prospect of his list and the opportunity for wider exposure of the community. I know I was. But when it became clear that he was using his background to paper over the fact that his list was rife with errors and the fact that he was an unknown entity to the community, there was legitimate concern that Seth was either I’ll-informed or taking advantage of the relative obscurity of this niche community to garner himself some clicks, either of which makes him a poor advocate to represent/report on the community to the mainstream. Was the response perhaps too harsh? Yes, and I contributed to that somewhat and feel bad, but I also get it necessary to qualify my enthusiasm with my concerns as I looked more closely at the list, Seth’s methodology, and his responses to others, both those good faith corrections and pointed criticisms. At the same time, given how much he claims to value his background as a journalist, Seth has an ethical responsibility to portray what he sees accurately and not use unethical sources to make his list, especially if he claims to support devs. And if he’s just a fan showing the world what he likes, then he should check his efforts to present himself as an authority at the door. He can’t have it both ways. Since he took down the list earlier this month, I’ve seen him interact with devs and that’s great. My last tweet to him made clear that I didn’t want to engage in gatekeeping, but rather to invite him further in, that he might get to know the devs behind the games he likes, as well as other fans, and thus be a more effective advocate or fan. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dale_coop | 171 Posted January 16, 2022 Author Share Posted January 16, 2022 @Scrobins for president! (©@fcgamer) You're totally right, Scrobins, Seth seemed really pretentious with his list, the way he presented it to the public. He should have just said the "here is a list of cool homebrew games I found" thing, yeah! I REAAAALLY prefer your approach, doing a deep presentation of homebrew games with interviews of their creators. (Man, you should publish them in a book or a magazine. I sincerely love those). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a3quit4s | 4,424 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 I’m not sure what the issue is here dude wrote an opinion piece and people shit on him because it wasn’t what they would have wrote? So write your own lol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerBidon | 145 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 (edited) When the guy popped talking about writing a top of hombrew games on a substack, I really didn't understand some of you where really hyped. Like, what are the chance for a random list by a random guy on the internet to be well done? Actually, I was pleasely surprised. The man seemed to have gueninely enjoyed our games, and the list was free to access. I would never have paid for such a thing. While it was clear the article should have been named "My 100 favourite hombrews to play in transit, 97th will blow your mind" I did not understand the backlash, and angry folks on all channels (heck, I muted Discord to let it pass.) Seems the hype was in part due to his big following on twitter. I am happy I never check that, I would have been disapointed. Remember folks, numbers on social networks are not a good measurement of people's popularity. Pretending to be a star-journalist while posting on a substack instead of well known media is a better indicator. That said, I disagree with you @dale_coop about the motivation of the brewer, and think it is a balance between challenge, expression, and money that differ from dev to dev. Expression being sharing your art, or bringing fun to people. I know in my case, expression is a big factor, I love to see people enjoying my game, and the ROM is the big deal. It is there, as easy as possible to grab, and the community being built around it is what keeps me motivated. Of course technical challenge is fantastic, especially on the hardware-side, and money is hoped to at least repay some of the dev costs. This is a blance, and all three aspects are important to understand a dev. Edited January 16, 2022 by RogerBidon Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrobins | 1,844 Moderator · Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 1 hour ago, a3quit4s said: I’m not sure what the issue is here dude wrote an opinion piece and people shit on him because it wasn’t what they would have wrote? So write your own lol That's not why people complained, and that he made a list at all was not the problem. Seth posted his list and said I'm a journalist, best-selling author, and I teach about video games at the university level, therefore I am an authority on this thing I found recently that none of my followers have heard of, and my list on it is definitive. Then he filled it with games using pirated roms (encouraging his followers to do the same rather than articulate how to ethically find games and support devs) and despite committing "hundreds of hours of his free time and money" his research didn't reveal to him that some of the games he included violated his own eligibility rules. It would be like if I posted here or on a forum dedicated to the Xbox and wrote: hey everyone I got an Xbox for Christmas last month and I just started playing. I'm learning more about it every day, and it's such a cool console I decided to make my list of Best Xbox Games of All Time for my new digital mag (like & subscribe errybody!). Now because I've been playing NES games for years, I know a thing or two about video games, more than most really, so my list is informed by my background and should be regarded as THE list of Xbox games. Now I have some rules about which games I will include, but I'm half-assing my research so I don't really care about those rules, just know that I started off with good and smart intentions. Also I didn't include any games I couldn't find on YouTube. And if you criticize me, my million followers will harass you that you should be grateful I cared enough to do this in the first place. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a3quit4s | 4,424 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scrobins said: That's not why people complained, and that he made a list at all was not the problem. Seth posted his list and said I'm a journalist, best-selling author, and I teach about video games at the university level, therefore I am an authority on this thing I found recently that none of my followers have heard of, and my list on it is definitive. Then he filled it with games using pirated roms (encouraging his followers to do the same rather than articulate how to ethically find games and support devs) and despite committing "hundreds of hours of his free time and money" his research didn't reveal to him that some of the games he included violated his own eligibility rules. It would be like if I posted here or on a forum dedicated to the Xbox and wrote: hey everyone I got an Xbox for Christmas last month and I just started playing. I'm learning more about it every day, and it's such a cool console I decided to make my list of Best Xbox Games of All Time for my new digital mag (like & subscribe errybody!). Now because I've been playing NES games for years, I know a thing or two about video games, more than most really, so my list is informed by my background and should be regarded as THE list of Xbox games. Now I have some rules about which games I will include, but I'm half-assing my research so I don't really care about those rules, just know that I started off with good and smart intentions. Also I didn't include any games I couldn't find on YouTube. And if you criticize me, my million followers will harass you that you should be grateful I cared enough to do this in the first place. You must be very busy taking care of all the people that lie on the internet and protecting us little folk. All kidding aside I think you do great work here and the homebrew scene means a lot to you. You do need to trust that when people read an opinion piece they take it as just that. All “top X number of all time” lists are opinion and mostly clickbait anyways. I love reading Reeds list and do I agree with everything of course not but it’s fun to read and put me in touch with games that I never heard of and really enjoyed playing. The real win here is the homebrew scene getting attention and money being made by people who work their assess off on this stuff. The fact that I don’t see dungeons and doomknights on there is pretty BS. And, yes, he should certainly not be providing links to download games illegally that is reprehensible Edited January 16, 2022 by a3quit4s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dale_coop | 171 Posted January 16, 2022 Author Share Posted January 16, 2022 3 hours ago, RogerBidon said: I disagree with you @dale_coop about the motivation of the brewer, and think it is a balance between challenge, expression, and money that differ from dev to dev. Expression being sharing your art, or bringing fun to people. Ok, I might fantasize a little the homebrewer motivations 1 hour ago, a3quit4s said: The fact that I don’t see dungeons and doomknights on there is pretty BS. Haha, thank you. I did the code for that game. And I told Seth he should check it again, because it's not a demake or hack or anything like that. I really hope the list comes back, just for the spotlight it could bring to the community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a3quit4s | 4,424 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 2 minutes ago, dale_coop said: Ok, I might fantasize a little the homebrewer motivations Haha, thank you. I did the code for that game. And I told Seth he should check it again, because it's not a demake or hack or anything like that. I really hope the list comes back, just for the spotlight it could bring to the community. Oh cool! I backed in October 2020 and have been following the updates. Neat stuff! Thanks for your hard work and can’t wait to play the final product! I’m standing firm on not playing it till I get my cart! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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