Sharedata Chiller NES Advertisement

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

13 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Please post the paraphrased blurb I'm honestly not seeing it...

Ok, I'll do your digging for you, this once.

On 10/26/2021 at 9:20 PM, Dr. Morbis said:

Okay, let's just forget arguments on both sides and list facts:

FACT #1 - Five or so Sharedata Chiller carts are known to exist in Color Dreams shells with no distinct boxes or manuals

FACT #2 - Sharedata put an ad in FOUR issues of GamePro, a leading videogame magazine of the era (printruns?)

FACT #3 - A former employee was questioned and believes that the Sharedata version was never sold and explains that AGCI was created as a subsidiary specifically to sell video games.

FACT #4 - Hundreds or Thousands of AGCI Chiller carts exist, many with boxes and manuals and majority with SHAREDATA TITLE SCREENS!!!!!

Intelligent people out there, feel free to draw your own logical conclusions.  @the_wizard_666 and @fcgamer, you may also use these facts to draw your illogical conclusions as well.

CASE DISMISSED!

"FACT #3" from a reply by @Dr. Morbis on page 6.

On 10/26/2021 at 10:15 PM, fcgamer said:

Is this all that counts? Title screens? I personally wouldn't go there if I were you

This might seem to be unrelated, but this is your post from the same page (6), where you literally quoted the above Dr. Morbis reply.

[fcgamer | 4,729]

10 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Ok, I'll do your digging for you, this once.

"FACT #3" from a reply by @Dr. Morbis on page 6.

This might seem to be unrelated, but this is your post from the same page (6), where you literally quoted the above Dr. Morbis reply.

I still don't see any paraphrasing of the quote from the alleged article that interviewed the guy that said the carts likely weren't released...

That's because it doesn't exist.

There may be an interview like that, but it doesn't exist here on these forums. 

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

1 hour ago, darkchylde28 said:

While I understand where you're coming from, where, exactly, do you draw the line at believing evidence produced by people other than yourself?  If the source of the article @Dr. Morbis presented regarding the recollections of a Sharedata employee regarding AGCI was provided, do we really need to go back and bother the specific employee about the same things once again?   How many people need to ask the direct source the same questions in order for it to be accepted?  I get that the paraphrased quote about this leaves something to be desired in the analytical documentation that's now being built about this, but seriously, if you can get the article where that specific quote came from or contact the writer of that article to ask questions about anything that wasn't 100% clear in the article, does the same ground need to be re-covered, and if so, why?

The actual article would be a good start.  I may have seen it, but I can't recall where, but everyone's saying this guy was quoted, but where is the quote?  Not to mention who made the quote in question?  Was it the CEO, the janitor, or someone in between?  We can't even begin to discuss it's veracity if we can't even verify the quote exists.  We don't need to reinvent the wheel here if the writer of the article can be reached and they still have their notes...but at this point, I have no idea if this referenced article even exists. 

[fcgamer | 4,729]

14 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

FACT #3 - A former employee was questioned and believes that the Sharedata version was never sold and explains that AGCI was created as a subsidiary specifically to sell video games.

Where is this taken from? The Martin Nielsen article?

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

2 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Where is this taken from? The Martin Nielsen article?

https://www.nesworld.com/agci.php

If that's the article you're referencing, probably not.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

Just now, fcgamer said:

I still don't see any paraphrasing of the quote from the alleged article that interviewed the guy that said the carts likely weren't released...

That's because it doesn't exist.

There may be an interview like that, but it doesn't exist here on these forums. 

Are you dense or just feel like being needlessly pedantic again?  Literal dictionary definition of the word paraphrase:  "express the meaning of (the writer or speaker or something written or spoken) using different words, especially to achieve greater clarity."  If you can't see @Dr. Morbis paraphrasing something in his list, you're being willfully dense, pedantic, or need an optometrist.  I went back and scanned as much as I could and didn't see any direct correlation with anything that came before then that he could have reinterpreted into that phrase, so he absolutely needs to provide a source for that information (preferably with the name of the employee, if available).  But, per the larger discussion at hand, once again, disproving that quote does not in any way, shape, or form validate your supposition that the blue Chiller cartridges were officially distributed.  Lack of documentation and validation of the paraphrased quote by Dr. Morbis simply removes a bit of information that would immediately deem the concept of blue Chiller carts being commercially released invalid.

Move on.  There is zero point beyond personal vendetta or some sort of OCD or something in remaining so invested in taking down a bit of information that has already been admitted to be needing documentation and validation to be accepted as fact.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

3 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Move on.  There is zero point beyond personal vendetta or some sort of OCD or something in remaining so invested in taking down a bit of information that has already been admitted to be needing documentation and validation to be accepted as fact.

Except that @Dr. Morbis referenced it as a fact.  If it cannot be proven as factually true, or at least shown to even exist, said quote strikes one "fact" from his list - the only one that in any way can point to being evidence that the Sharedata version was not distributed at all to the public in any form.  The rest are simply facts that do not work to prove any scenario.

Basically, we just have no clue at this point.  We need more evidence.  Sourced quotations would be an excellent start.  Finding people involved, internal documents, public records, news posts, etc would also be great.  Everything can be used to build a picture of what went down, but without them we just have nothing to go on but theories and speculation.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

7 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

https://www.nesworld.com/agci.php

If that's the article you're referencing, probably not.

Thank you for that.  Despite copying the @Hollywoodcaddy post that copy/pasted that NESWorld article verbatim, Notepad didn't find "Chiller" when I used the find function, so I moved on without rereading it.  That's definitely where that tidbit came from, @fcgamer, with the quote from that article being:

"Anyway the idea to make low-budget NES games came into mind and ShareData contacted another company, Color Dreams, who already had their foor in the doorway to be making NES games using their own, unlicensed, cartridge. ShareData licensed the NES format from Color Dreams and bought a license to release Exidy games on the NES aswell. First game programmed was Chiller and a small production run was made using Color Dreams cartridge format with a label saying the game was released by ShareData. I don't think these were actually released though as American Game Cartrides Inc soon after was formed and the cartridge design to a much heavier one and the name ShareData removed from the game aswell as cartridge label."

So someone would need to contact Martin Nielsen and see what his sources were for that article to determine how that conclusion came to be reached.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

1 minute ago, darkchylde28 said:

Thank you for that.  Despite copying the @Hollywoodcaddy post that copy/pasted that NESWorld article verbatim, Notepad didn't find "Chiller" when I used the find function, so I moved on without rereading it.  That's definitely where that tidbit came from, @fcgamer, with the quote from that article being:

"Anyway the idea to make low-budget NES games came into mind and ShareData contacted another company, Color Dreams, who already had their foor in the doorway to be making NES games using their own, unlicensed, cartridge. ShareData licensed the NES format from Color Dreams and bought a license to release Exidy games on the NES aswell. First game programmed was Chiller and a small production run was made using Color Dreams cartridge format with a label saying the game was released by ShareData. I don't think these were actually released though as American Game Cartrides Inc soon after was formed and the cartridge design to a much heavier one and the name ShareData removed from the game aswell as cartridge label."

So someone would need to contact Martin Nielsen and see what his sources were for that article to determine how that conclusion came to be reached.

On it...

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

4 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Except that @Dr. Morbis referenced it as a fact.  If it cannot be proven as factually true, or at least shown to even exist, said quote strikes one "fact" from his list - the only one that in any way can point to being evidence that the Sharedata version was not distributed at all to the public in any form.  The rest are simply facts that do not work to prove any scenario.

Basically, we just have no clue at this point.  We need more evidence.  Sourced quotations would be an excellent start.  Finding people involved, internal documents, public records, news posts, etc would also be great.  Everything can be used to build a picture of what went down, but without them we just have nothing to go on but theories and speculation.

Understood, although I believe I, at least, conceded that it wasn't a fact without actual documentation a while back.  Had the NESWorld article actually referenced a source, I'd be more comfortable and confident in referring to it as a solid source, but right now, with things as they are, it looks like it's a potentially solid lead at best and NESWorld article's author's (presumably Martin Nielsen, but it's not documented) best guess theory at worst.  Hopefully your followup will shed some more light on things, in all directions.  The fact stands that @fcgamer just keeps looping back to this again and again, which needn't keep happening as, in the court scenario that keeps getting referenced, this would have been considered "asked and answered" a long time ago, even if @Dr. Morbis himself didn't do so.  Fingers crossed we can cease looping backward into anything other than actual facts moving forward.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

Just now, darkchylde28 said:

Understood, although I believe I, at least, conceded that it wasn't a fact without actual documentation a while back.  Had the NESWorld article actually referenced a source, I'd be more comfortable and confident in referring to it as a solid source, but right now, with things as they are, it looks like it's a potentially solid lead at best and NESWorld article's author's (presumably Martin Nielsen, but it's not documented) best guess theory at worst.  Hopefully your followup will shed some more light on things, in all directions.  The fact stands that @fcgamer just keeps looping back to this again and again, which needn't keep happening as, in the court scenario that keeps getting referenced, this would have been considered "asked and answered" a long time ago, even if @Dr. Morbis himself didn't do so.  Fingers crossed we can cease looping backward into anything other than actual facts moving forward.

You did concede that point, however iirc it was before @Dr. Morbis made his list...or at least most recently posted it.  The burden of proof at this point is on him if he still wishes to use that point as an argument.

The NESWorld article is clearly stating his personal opinion.  Whether that opinion was based on anything concrete, I have no idea.  I've sent Martin a message however, so hopefully soon we'll get something from him.  I linked the thread in all it's glory for him to read up on, and gave him the option of communicating through me if he'd rather not register, so hopefully we'll hear from him soon. 

I do agree though, it's tedious at best to watch both @fcgamer and @Dr. Morbis circle the drain like they have, although at least @fcgamer is providing some tidbits of info.  @Dr. Morbis just seems to be content with raising his voice and trying to drown out the opposition.  I honestly wish he'd put that enthusiasm to use trying to find tangible data that we could use to solve this puzzle instead of just saying "I'm right, you're wrong, we're done" repeatedly like that's gonna help things along. 

Anyway, I'm thinking I may write up something to use as a data repository...if only to get everything relevant from the thread somewhat organized in one central place.  I was gonna just leave that mantle for someone else to grab, but I'm not sure anyone else will at this point.  If this is gonna get figured out, someone needs to actually do some figuring.  So I'll get on that after my class today.  If anyone wants to help, and finds something interesting one way or the other, post or PM me and I'll start the process tonight.

[fcgamer | 4,729]

28 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Are you dense or just feel like being needlessly pedantic again?  Literal dictionary definition of the word paraphrase:  "express the meaning of (the writer or speaker or something written or spoken) using different words, especially to achieve greater clarity."  If you can't see @Dr. Morbis paraphrasing something in his list, you're being willfully dense, pedantic, or need an optometrist.  I went back and scanned as much as I could and didn't see any direct correlation with anything that came before then that he could have reinterpreted into that phrase, so he absolutely needs to provide a source for that information (preferably with the name of the employee, if available).  But, per the larger discussion at hand, once again, disproving that quote does not in any way, shape, or form validate your supposition that the blue Chiller cartridges were officially distributed.  Lack of documentation and validation of the paraphrased quote by Dr. Morbis simply removes a bit of information that would immediately deem the concept of blue Chiller carts being commercially released invalid.

Move on.  There is zero point beyond personal vendetta or some sort of OCD or something in remaining so invested in taking down a bit of information that has already been admitted to be needing documentation and validation to be accepted as fact.

Dr.Morbis references Hollywood Caddy (username correct?) Who had quoted the NES World article, in which the NES World author had drawn conclusions suggesting the carts were never released.

The way the NES World article is dropped in, to those that don't know better it looks as though it could be quotes with someone from ShareData, but it's not, the article is taken out of context and being misinterpreted.

That's my point! You can't produce a quote, neither can anyone else because in this thread, no quotes exist, not even paraphrased ones.

[fcgamer | 4,729]

25 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Thank you for that.  Despite copying the @Hollywoodcaddy post that copy/pasted that NESWorld article verbatim, Notepad didn't find "Chiller" when I used the find function, so I moved on without rereading it.  That's definitely where that tidbit came from, @fcgamer, with the quote from that article being:

"Anyway the idea to make low-budget NES games came into mind and ShareData contacted another company, Color Dreams, who already had their foor in the doorway to be making NES games using their own, unlicensed, cartridge. ShareData licensed the NES format from Color Dreams and bought a license to release Exidy games on the NES aswell. First game programmed was Chiller and a small production run was made using Color Dreams cartridge format with a label saying the game was released by ShareData. I don't think these were actually released though as American Game Cartrides Inc soon after was formed and the cartridge design to a much heavier one and the name ShareData removed from the game aswell as cartridge label."

So someone would need to contact Martin Nielsen and see what his sources were for that article to determine how that conclusion came to be reached.

He made the conclusions the same way we are all drawing conclusions in this very thread, which I had even mentioned three posts up. Give me a f'ing break, seriously, the stupidity in here is something I can't deal with.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

I got confirmation from Martin.  He based his opinion on data from Richard Frick, who was no longer with the company as of February 1990.  For what it's worth.  I'm getting a wealth of new info from him, but I have class in 5 minutes so it'll have to wait.

[fcgamer | 4,729]

18 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Understood, although I believe I, at least, conceded that it wasn't a fact without actual documentation a while back.  Had the NESWorld article actually referenced a source, I'd be more comfortable and confident in referring to it as a solid source, but right now, with things as they are, it looks like it's a potentially solid lead at best and NESWorld article's author's (presumably Martin Nielsen, but it's not documented) best guess theory at worst.  Hopefully your followup will shed some more light on things, in all directions.  The fact stands that @fcgamer just keeps looping back to this again and again, which needn't keep happening as, in the court scenario that keeps getting referenced, this would have been considered "asked and answered" a long time ago, even if @Dr. Morbis himself didn't do so.  Fingers crossed we can cease looping backward into anything other than actual facts moving forward.

Dude, you do realise that I also ran and maintained a prominent website back in that era, right?

Martin Nielsen, TSR, nesplayer, Niels, tootai, nes.god, dreamtr, portnoyd, etc - we all were involved in researching shit years ago, throw in Frank cifaldi, b00dah, et all . 

As there wasn't tons of concrete information, we interviewed folks, did meta crawler / dog pile searches, then constructed articles based on our findings and theories, accuracies be damned. 

Different times.

 

[fcgamer | 4,729]

2 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

I got confirmation from Martin.  He based his opinion on data from Richard Frick, who was no longer with the company as of February 1990.  For what it's worth.  I'm getting a wealth of new info from him, but I have class in 5 minutes so it'll have to wait.

Iirc , it was Richard Frick who the Nolans called up confirming the AGCI Wallybear based on a newspaper advert.

[fcgamer | 4,729]

Regarding the whole AVE thing, until I brought it up to Phleo last year or so, no one here had any clue that Ave was formed just to give a Taiwanense company the chance to sell their chips. Lol. Such a western centric perspective these articles take, based on half baked theories. 

As mentioned earlier, Ive been there before, but now I prefer the reality.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

16 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Dr.Morbis references Hollywood Caddy (username correct?) Who had quoted the NES World article, in which the NES World author had drawn conclusions suggesting the carts were never released.

The way the NES World article is dropped in, to those that don't know better it looks as though it could be quotes with someone from ShareData, but it's not, the article is taken out of context and being misinterpreted.

That's my point! You can't produce a quote, neither can anyone else because in this thread, no quotes exist, not even paraphrased ones.

You're being needlessly adversarial and pedantic at this point.  I understand that @Dr. Morbis shit in your Cheerios, but please take your personal beef with each other to PMs at this point.  I'm still, at least momentarily, involved and interested in this discussion, so even if Dr. Morbis never concedes that his third fact on page 6 isn't actually one and that he misunderstood Martin Neilsen's article as being a quote from an employee versus being the author's own theory, it's immaterial at this point.  What Dr. Morbis paraphrased was him quoting Marin Neilsen from his own article, which does exist, and was produced on page 1, even if it wasn't a direct quote from someone who actually worked at Sharedata.  So, for the final time before I just click ignore to this who bit of shenanigans and leave you to shout whatever you want to make up in your own echo chamber, please, for the love of whatever, drop it.  The horse died, was autopsied, confirmed to be deceased, a service was held, the body was incinerated, then we buried the ashes and entombed it in concrete.  The end.

8 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Dude, you do realise that I also ran and maintained a prominent website back in that era, right?

Martin Nielsen, TSR, nesplayer, Niels, tootai, nes.god, dreamtr, portnoyd, etc - we all were involved in researching shit years ago, throw in Frank cifaldi, b00dah, et all . 

As there wasn't tons of concrete information, we interviewed folks, did meta crawler / dog pile searches, then constructed articles based on our findings and theories, accuracies be damned. 

Different times.

No offense intended, but how is this relevant?  So, based on you shooting down Martin Neilsen's article's veracity, you're saying you all did bad, undocumented, unsourced "research" at the same time and/or together?  If anything, everyone you mentioned would have had an easier time getting information in those days, seeing as memories would be fresher, records more recent and less likely to be archived in a warehouse somewhere, etc.

Edited October 29, 2021 by darkchylde28

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

4 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Regarding the whole AVE thing, until I brought it up to Phleo last year or so, no one here had any clue that Ave was formed just to give a Taiwanense company the chance to sell their chips. Lol. Such a western centric perspective these articles take, based on half baked theories. 

As mentioned earlier, Ive been there before, but now I prefer the reality.

What does AVE have to do with this?  Aside from Frick moving on to form the company and subsequently buying Wally Bear, they have nothing to do with AGCI.  They're really a footnote at best in this.

I'm shooting a PM your way shortly though...similar matter but involves some personal info too.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

9 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

No offense intended, but how is this relevant?  So, based on you shooting down Martin Neilsen's article's veracity, you're saying you all did bad, undocumented, unsourced "research" at the same time and/or together?  If anything, everyone you mentioned would have had an easier time getting information in those days, seeing as memories would be fresher, records more recent and less likely to be archived in a warehouse somewhere, etc.

Actually, Martin has confirmed that to me.  @fcgamer was the one who tracked down most of the info on AGCI back in the late '90s.  Hence the PM I just sent him

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

Just now, the_wizard_666 said:

Actually, Martin has confirmed that to me.  @fcgamer was the one who tracked down most of the info on AGCI back in the late '90s.  Hence the PM I just sent him

So his statement is a roundabout admission that the reason we don't have actual confirmed facts and figures is because of him not asking for them back in the day? 

So we can either believe him and his research and conclude that Martin's article guessing that the blue Chiller was never distributed officially is correct, or disbelieve him due to no sources and still have no confirmation that blue Chiller was ever officially distributed. 

[NESWORLD | 13]

Hi there ....

My AGCI article was based on a single "mail interview from 1998" with Richard Frick, it seems. It looks like I tried to get more details about AVE and maybe also AGCI, but Richard was a busy guy and he stopped responding after promising to reply to my second round of questions. 

It was a different time back then. I don't remember where my Chiller cart came from, most likely Phil Mikkelson, and I most likely assumed things in the article, not to mislead anyone but because there was basicly no info available, so assumptions were made.

I have not read all 10 pages (yet) so I'm not too sure of what this is about, but feel free to throw some questions at me and I will try to answer, if I even remember. I'm getting old

Regards,
Martin

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

4 minutes ago, NESWORLD said:

I have not read all 10 pages (yet) so I'm not too sure of what this is about, but feel free to throw some questions at me and I will try to answer, if I even remember. I'm getting old

Regards,
Martin

A quick summary was discussion about whether the blue, Color Dreams cased Sharedata branded Chiller cartridges were ever distributed via any retail channel or not.  The resurfacing of an old ad featured in GamePro for several months with Sharedata contact details fanned the flames about whether those copies were officially distributed via that method, but no conclusive evidence has ever been brought forward one way or the other.  As there have only been approximately 5 to ever surface, the opposing theory is that those cartridges were created as a proof of concept in order to spur orders from retailers, shortly after which Sharedata spun its NES games off into it's subsidiary AGCI.  Sadly, no solid proof either way, but I have to admit that the severe lack of copies known to exist of the blue Sharedata Chiller carts does shade it as them not having been officially distributed in my eyes.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

11 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Sadly, no solid proof either way, but I have to admit that the severe lack of copies known to exist of the blue Sharedata Chiller carts does shade it as them not having been officially distributed in my eyes.

5 is a lot of copies for what may have been a mail-order only version though, especially from a company that was a) unlicensed, and b) completely unknown in the NES sphere.  It's not a cut-and-dried thing.  To me, it seems less likely that 5 retailer demos would've survived this long than for the same number of retail carts being all that's survived.  The carts look production quality, but without proof either way, it's all speculation. 

Also, we don't know that only 5 exist. Just that only 5 have turned up to date in collectors' hands. There could be dozens out there in grandma's attic, someone's storage locker, or even possibly a warehouse somewhere.  We just don't have all the information that we need to conclusively determine what exactly Sharedata Chiller is, nevermind how it got out.

Here's a thought - has any of the 5 owners ever opened the cart and taken a picture of the board itself?  If it looks different than the AGCI version, it could potentially prove it to be a concept piece, proto, or demo, rather than a retail release. 

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

14 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

5 is a lot of copies for what may have been a mail-order only version though, especially from a company that was a) unlicensed, and b) completely unknown in the NES sphere.  It's not a cut-and-dried thing.  To me, it seems less likely that 5 retailer demos would've survived this long than for the same number of retail carts being all that's survived.  The carts look production quality, but without proof either way, it's all speculation.

Not at all in other mail order software spheres of the day.  Plenty more copies of other games which were shipped in baggies, with photocopied documentation (at best) stuffed in with a diskette or two.  5 is still very, very few copies for something that is being inferred as having sold well due to the GamePro ad staying up for at least four months.  The only way that the dealer demo scenario really seems unlikely is that all (or nearly all) such copies would appear to have survived and made it into hands that weren't those of anyone involved with the company.

As for them looking like they're "production quality," I mean...come on.  That, right there, is some absolutely, incredibly weak-ass sauce.  OF COURSE they looked production quality--they literally made them using materials they bought straight off of Color Dreams' already running production lines.  The only real differences between those carts and an actual Color Dreams release are the labels applied (which weren't hard or expensive to produce), what ROM chips were on the Color Dreams boards obtained, and who screwed the carts together.  They looked extremely polished because they bought virtually every piece already professionally done from another company, ready to go, save for soldering in their own ROMs, screwing the carts together, and slapping on the labels.  Any idiot executive in a suit could even do that.

14 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Also, we don't know that only 5 exist. Just that only 5 have turned up to date in collectors' hands. There could be dozens out there in grandma's attic, someone's storage locker, or even possibly a warehouse somewhere.  We just don't have all the information that we need to conclusively determine what exactly Sharedata Chiller is, nevermind how it got out.

Technically a fair point, but also somewhat ridiculous until proven different.  Where's the huge stash of US Stadium Events cartridges?  Produced, but unused gray NWC carts?  I mean, if we're just speculating wildly, why not shoot for the moon?  Right now, what evidence we have shows as it being an oddity, whose reason for production is unknown.  There's zero evidence to even hint that there's some sort of stockpiled horde somewhere, so if you're going to put that out there as a likelihood, you might as well go big for other well known, truly rare carts out there.

14 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Here's a thought - has any of the 5 owners ever opened the cart and taken a picture of the board itself?  If it looks different than the AGCI version, it could potentially prove it to be a concept piece, proto, or demo, rather than a retail release. 

Good thought, but to date, no, at least not publicly.  Ferris seemed to indicate he'd have been keen on the idea if anyone had approached him before he got his copy slabbed, but now it's basically too late.  Is there public documentation of who the other 4 owners are so that they could be contacted to see if they'd ever done so or would be willing to do so to help with the investigation?