Sharedata Chiller NES Advertisement

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

23 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

As @the_wizard_666 wrote, the ad was supposedly up for many months in GamePro; that pretty much kills your theory right there....

How does it kill the theory? Think about it - how many copies of Stadium Events are floating around for a game that likely sold in the 5 digit range...not many, less than 1%.  So if even 1000 copies were made in Color Dreams shells, the fact that only a couple survived is not out of line.  Stadium Events had the full range of distribution afforded to a Nintendo licensee.  Sharedata Chiller would've had all the revenue generated from four issues of GamePro (which was still just getting off the ground at the time).  I doubt they sold more than a couple hundred units over that span of time.

[fcgamer | 4,719]

39 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

@fcgamer: My problem is that you lump them all together.  That's like asking about "Konami" and then saying Noah's Ark should be listed since it's "Konami." I have no problem with listing an individual Sachen title on the US list if it's proven to have been sold on US soil pre-'97, but it is wrong to list them all categorically.  Do you see what I'm saying?  The argument, "well I remember seeing title X and Y for sale when I was a kid so Sachens should count," is terribly flawed.  You have to look at each title individually and assess its merits as a possible US release, and as of right now, I personally believe less than five titles out of the entire Sachen catalog could be convincingly proven to have been sold on US soil during the life of the NES...

While I agree with you somewhat on this point, due to the distribution methods, unless you get a bunch of Asian/ Chinese American collectors chiming in, it's not likely we'll ever be able to differentiate, aside from Huge Insect of course. And to exclude titles that should be on the list is just as bad, if not worse, than the alternative.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

3 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

While I agree with you somewhat on this point, due to the distribution methods, unless you get a bunch of Asian/ Chinese American collectors chiming in, it's not likely we'll ever be able to differentiate, aside from Huge Insect of course. And to exclude titles that should be on the list is just as bad, if not worse, than the alternative.

I disagree: accusing someone or something of being something they are not is far, FAR worse than not accusing someone or something of being something that they are, and the law of pretty much every country on earth tends to agree with me...

[fcgamer | 4,719]

22 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

I'll tell you what probably happened: that ad garnered a lot of sales, and each of those kids received an AGCI Chiller, becaues that's what Sharedata had moved onto by the time the ad ran and they were ready to fill out the orders they had received..

To quote a wise man:

The problem is: you have NOTHING to back this up other than your personal assumptions based on not knowing how business works.

This sums up your arguments nicely.

 

[fcgamer | 4,719]

1 minute ago, Dr. Morbis said:

I disagree: accusing someone or something of being something they are not is far, FAR worse than not accusing someone or something of being something that they are, and the law of pretty much every country on earth tends to agree with me...

We aren't accusing anyone of anything.

With that said, excluding and discriminating against people or things isn't in favour right now, at least not in the USA.

You ever been discriminated against? That sucks, and we've seen what happens when the issue isn't addressed.

#SachensCartsMatter

 

 

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

2 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

While I agree with you somewhat on this point, due to the distribution methods, unless you get a bunch of Asian/ Chinese American collectors chiming in, it's not likely we'll ever be able to differentiate, aside from Huge Insect of course. And to exclude titles that should be on the list is just as bad, if not worse, than the alternative.

Exclusion until proven is the way it should be though.  The inclusion should be a case-by-case basis, but everyone is focused on an all-in-one solution.  With Sachen, that plain doesn't work.  I think you'd have a better case if you were to argue each game individually with the evidence than to try and get all of them included en masse.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

21 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

How does it kill the theory? Think about it - how many copies of Stadium Events are floating around for a game that likely sold in the 5 digit range...not many, less than 1%.  So if even 1000 copies were made in Color Dreams shells, the fact that only a couple survived is not out of line.  Stadium Events had the full range of distribution afforded to a Nintendo licensee.  Sharedata Chiller would've had all the revenue generated from four issues of GamePro (which was still just getting off the ground at the time).  I doubt they sold more than a couple hundred units over that span of time.

No way in hell did SE sell in the five digit range; some of the rarer later NES era games only had print-runs in the FOUR digit range, never mind sell-throughs, and they are considerably less rare.

I'm starting to think you came into this thread just to argue against me rather than actually find the truth.  Read what you're writing.... SE sold FIVE DIGITS... as in TEN THOUSAND COPIES.... SOLD!!!!!!  I don't know who you are, noob, but give the keyboard back to Mike, as he's been collecting for decades and would never make such an assinine assertion.

Seriously though, are you trolling me???

Edited October 27, 2021 by Dr. Morbis

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

Just now, Dr. Morbis said:

No way in hell did SE sell in the five digit range; some of the rarer later NES era games only had print-runs in the FOUR digit range, never mind sell-throughs, and they are considerably less rare.

I'm starting to think you came into this thread to argue against me rather than actuall find the truth.  Read what you're writing.... SE sold FIVE DIGITS... as in TEN THOUSAND COPIES.... SOLD!!!!!!  I don't know who you are, noob, but give the keyboard back to Mike, as he's been collecting for decades and would never make such an assinine assertion.

Seriosly though, are you trolling me???

10,000 copies isn't all that much. Not every cart made has survived to today - most would be in landfills somewhere.

[fcgamer | 4,719]

2 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Exclusion until proven is the way it should be though.  The inclusion should be a case-by-case basis, but everyone is focused on an all-in-one solution.  With Sachen, that plain doesn't work.  I think you'd have a better case if you were to argue each game individually with the evidence than to try and get all of them included en masse.

As mentioned earlier, this will never work due to how the carts were distributed.

 

[fcgamer | 4,719]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

No way in hell did SE sell in the five digit range; some of the rarer later NES era games only had print-runs in the FOUR digit range, never mind sell-throughs, and they are considerably less rare.

Here we go again, jumping to conclusions...

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

3 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

As mentioned earlier, this will never work due to how the carts were distributed.

 

Why not?  Start with titles that have definitive evidence of distribution in the US.  There are a few IIRC that have surfaced over the years.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

7 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

To quote a wise man:

The problem is: you have NOTHING to back this up other than your personal assumptions based on not knowing how business works.

This sums up your arguments nicely.

 

Okay, let's just forget arguments on both sides and list facts:

FACT #1 - Five or so Sharedata Chiller carts are known to exist in Color Dreams shells with no distinct boxes or manuals

FACT #2 - Sharedata put an ad in FOUR issues of GamePro, a leading videogame magazine of the era (printruns?)

FACT #3 - A former employee was questioned and believes that the Sharedata version was never sold and explains that AGCI was created as a subsidiary specifically to sell video games.

FACT #4 - Hundreds or Thousands of AGCI Chiller carts exist, many with boxes and manuals and majority with SHAREDATA TITLE SCREENS!!!!!

Intelligent people out there, feel free to draw your own logical conclusions.  @the_wizard_666 and @fcgamer, you may also use these facts to draw your illogical conclusions as well.

CASE DISMISSED!

[fcgamer | 4,719]

2 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Why not?  Start with titles that have definitive evidence of distribution in the US.  There are a few IIRC that have surfaced over the years.

If blue chiller can't even get on the list, how are the few Sachens that you mentioned above? Again, limited number of carts found.

Then again, the whole thing is a farce, as I said earlier, the b/W impossible mission 2 likely shouldn't be on the list, or it should st least be investigated, but there's been a lack of interest for some reason

 

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

Just now, fcgamer said:

Then again, the whole thing is a farce, as I said earlier, the b/W impossible mission 2 likely shouldn't be on the list, or it should st least be investigated, but there's been a lack of interest for some reason

Why?  Isn't that a classic case of cost-cutting measures late in a game's run?

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

1 minute ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Okay, let's just forget arguments on both sides and list facts:

FACT #1 - Five or so Sharedata Chiller carts are known to exist in Color Dreams shells with no distinct boxes or manuals

FACT #2 - Sharedata put an ad in FOUR issues of GamePro, a leading videogame magazine of the era (printruns?)

FACT #3 - A former employee was questioned and believes that the Sharedata version was never sold and explains that AGCI was created as a subsidiary specifically to sell video games.

FACT #4 - Hundreds or Thousands of AGCI Chiller carts exist, many with boxes and manuals and majority with SHAREDATA TITLE SCREENS!!!!!

Intelligent people out there, feel free to draw your own logical conclusions.  @the_wizard_666 and @fcgamer, you may also use these facts to draw your illogical conclusions as well.

CASE DISMISSED!

1 - Air Raid had far more carts known without a box and manual before any showed up.  Just because it's not known doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  However, the box and manual wasn't exactly required if it was sold through the mail anyway.  Sharedata was known for doing shit on the cheap, so why would they have spent a penny more than absolutely necessary?

2 - Find the data to show the print run.  That said, the number of people interested enough to order it would likely have fallen in the >1% range of total readers.  Only accounts for a few hundred sales at most.

3 - So you're using someone's opinion as fact?  Show me the documents man, this is hearsay and wouldn't hold up to any scrutiny.

4 - That's entirely irrelevant.  Those carts would've had a wider distribution, and there was really no reason to alter the ROM itself.  Indeed, they still used the Color Dreams boards, indicating they were using up existing stock rather than having to spend extra money.  This fits perfectly with how Sharedata was run.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

8 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

If blue chiller can't even get on the list, how are the few Sachens that you mentioned above? Again, limited number of carts found.

 

 

That's as it should be, but it depends on the evidence presented.  Some of the Sachen games have some solid evidence to include them (Huge Insect is probably the most obvious example here).  But part of it is people wanting a finite list.  Why aren't homebrew releases counted? They should be - they were made for the US market, albeit in a limited form.  But because they weren't made "back in the day" they don't count.  At the end of the day, people are gonna collect what they want to collect, and that's it.  No amount of trying to "change the list" is gonna change the fact that most people aren't gonna give a shit.

 

8 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Then again, the whole thing is a farce, as I said earlier, the b/W impossible mission 2 likely shouldn't be on the list, or it should st least be investigated, but there's been a lack of interest for some reason

 

That's clearly an end-of-run cost cutting measure, but it's also a cartridge variant that exists in sufficient quantities to warrant including it as a known variant vs a one-off.  The only "full set" distinction for Impossible Mission II is the AVE vs SEI distinction, not which SEI version you own.  Apples and oranges dude.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

3 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

3 - So you're using someone's opinion as fact?  Show me the documents man, this is hearsay and wouldn't hold up to any scrutiny.

 

4 - That's entirely irrelevant.  Those carts would've had a wider distribution, and there was really no reason to alter the ROM itself.  Indeed, they still used the Color Dreams boards, indicating they were using up existing stock rather than having to spend extra money.  This fits perfectly with how Sharedata was run.

3 - Trial law is built, in part, around examing and cross-examining human beings, with the understanding that you are taking what the person is saying on good faith.  You can dismiss this man's particular testimony in this case if you want, but I have no reason whatsoever to believe he is lying or would have any reason to lie.

4 - I know exactly how cheap companies cut corners, trust me.  As I said in the first or second page of this thread: there's a distinct possibility that a few kids received Sharedata carts inside their AGCI Chiller boxes (as you said, using up existing stock) and if this were the case, the blue Chiller would have to be classified as an AGCI cart variant at best.  But, of course, this is all conjecture on both your part and mine

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

3 - Trial law is built, in part, around examing and cross-examining human beings, with the understanding that you are taking what the person is saying on good faith.  You can dismiss this man's particular testimony in this case if you want, but I have no reason whatsoever to believe he is lying or would have any reason to lie.

4 - I know exactly how cheap companies cut corners, trust me.  As I said in the first or second page of this thread: there's a distinct possibility that a few kids received Sharedata carts inside their AGCI Chiller boxes (as you said, using up existing stock) and if this were the case, the blue Chiller would have to be classified as an AGCI cart variant at best.  But, of course, this is all conjecture on both your part and mine

3 - There is a reason that hearsay is not admissible in court - people's memories are flawed.  I don't think he's lying, but he may have faulty knowledge of the situation, or is guessing, or any number of things that could invalidate the testimony.  If he had hard data to back it up, then it's worth putting more stock into it.  But without that data, there isn't a court on the continent that would admit that testimony as evidence.

4 - There is ZERO evidence that the mail order copies even shipped with a box and manual.  And if they did, you would think that AGCI would have to EXIST before they made the boxes and manuals with their branding.  The $10 increase in MSRP would seem to directly correlate to the cost of distribution increasing due to needing packaging material to sell on store shelves. 

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

10 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

3 - There is a reason that hearsay is not admissible in court - people's memories are flawed.  I don't think he's lying, but he may have faulty knowledge of the situation, or is guessing, or any number of things that could invalidate the testimony.  If he had hard data to back it up, then it's worth putting more stock into it.  But without that data, there isn't a court on the continent that would admit that testimony as evidence.

4 - There is ZERO evidence that the mail order copies even shipped with a box and manual.  And if they did, you would think that AGCI would have to EXIST before they made the boxes and manuals with their branding.  The $10 increase in MSRP would seem to directly correlate to the cost of distribution increasing due to needing packaging material to sell on store shelves. 

3 - Dude, this isn't a murder trial; if you're going to throw out first hand testimony of a person who was actually there, then you really don't want to find the truth to begin with.  I'm sorry, but this sort of first hand info is a dream to uncover in the collectible hobby realm.  You.....  just... don't.... get... it....

4 - In assuming the mail order shipped in a box, I am speculating that this game came packaged like every other released title in the NES library; in assuming that the game did NOT come in a box, you are speculating that this game's packaging was unlike every other NES game ever released!!!  Can you not see the problem here?  You're literally making absurd assumptions to back up the conclusions you so desperately hope to find.  That's not how you run a logical investigation.  You start by assuming like is to like, and you run with that until you find evidence that runs to the contrary!  Why are working so hard against logic?  Seriously????

Edited October 27, 2021 by Dr. Morbis

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

3 - Dude, this isn't a murder trial; if you're going to throw out first hand testimony of a person who was actually there, then you really don't want to find the truth to begin with.  I'm sorry, but this sort of first hand info is a dream to uncover in the collectible hobby realm.  You.....  just... don't.... get... it....

4 - In assuming the mail order shipped in a box, I am speculating that this game came packaged like every other released title in the NES library; in assuming that the game did NOT come in a box, you are speculating that this game's packaging was unlike every other NES game ever released!!!  Can you not see the problem here?  You're literally making absurd assumptions to back up the conclusions you so desperately hope to find.  That's not how you run a logical investigation.  You start by assuming like is to like, and you run with that until you find evidence that runs to the contrary!  Why are working so hard against logic?  Seriously????

3 - Dude, who's first-hand info is it?  Was he the guy fulfilling orders?  No? Then his testimony is hearsay.  It'd be like asking the guy running the company if he can remember what product they used to clean the toilets.

4 - Seeing as every other documented NES release was sold in stores at some point, they have boxes for a reason.  Selling directly to the consumer could easily have been viewed as a way to cut costs and NOT sell with packaging.  Or possibly the shipping box WAS the box.  We just don't know.  Suffice to say, not having a box for a mail order title is not the smoking gun you seem to think it is.  It's a company that, to that point, had NEVER had anything to do with the NES market.  And since such distribution was still commonplace with PC games at the time when sold via mail order.  Couple that with the fact that discs were cheaper than carts by a wide margin, and to hit their $19.99 MSRP they would've likely needed to cut whatever frills were necessary from the process.  And since most people just tossed the boxes, why waste money making them?

[fcgamer | 4,719]

53 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Okay, let's just forget arguments on both sides and list facts:

FACT #1 - Five or so Sharedata Chiller carts are known to exist in Color Dreams shells with no distinct boxes or manuals

FACT #2 - Sharedata put an ad in FOUR issues of GamePro, a leading videogame magazine of the era (printruns?)

FACT #3 - A former employee was questioned and believes that the Sharedata version was never sold and explains that AGCI was created as a subsidiary specifically to sell video games.

FACT #4 - Hundreds or Thousands of AGCI Chiller carts exist, many with boxes and manuals and majority with SHAREDATA TITLE SCREENS!!!!!

Intelligent people out there, feel free to draw your own logical conclusions.  @the_wizard_666 and @fcgamer, you may also use these facts to draw your illogical conclusions as well.

CASE DISMISSED!

Is this all that counts? Title screens? I personally wouldn't go there if I were you

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

1 minute ago, the_wizard_666 said:

3 - Dude, who's first-hand info is it?  Was he the guy fulfilling orders?  No? Then his testimony is hearsay.  It'd be like asking the guy running the company if he can remember what product they used to clean the toilets.

4 - Seeing as every other documented NES release was sold in stores at some point, they have boxes for a reason.  Selling directly to the consumer could easily have been viewed as a way to cut costs and NOT sell with packaging.  Or possibly the shipping box WAS the box.  We just don't know.  Suffice to say, not having a box for a mail order title is not the smoking gun you seem to think it is.  It's a company that, to that point, had NEVER had anything to do with the NES market.  And since such distribution was still commonplace with PC games at the time when sold via mail order.  Couple that with the fact that discs were cheaper than carts by a wide margin, and to hit their $19.99 MSRP they would've likely needed to cut whatever frills were necessary from the process.  And since most people just tossed the boxes, why waste money making them?

3 - Wow, just wow.  We're not talking about an Oil company with a thirty floor headquarters - holy shit!!!  If you don't want to believe him, fine, I don't care.  Just know that it greatly diminishes your credibility as someone trying to find the truth in this matter

4 - Action 52 was sold mailorder and came sealed CIB.  Dragon Warrior was given away by the hundreds of thousands via mail and it came sealed CIB.  In fact, I can't think of a single NES game that came via mail as a loose cartridge.  You're jumping to conclusions about a particular product (NES games) in a particular era that has NO PRECENDENT WHATSOEVER at all in the history of NES releases during the NES era!!!  If that's what you need to do to support your claims, fine, I'm done.  I'm going with the four facts I listed earlier, and as long as @ThePhleo is smart enough to not add this title to his upstanding US release list, then I don't really care what you and TRM, the two mighty non-conformists, think on the matter anymore.

End of Line.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

1 minute ago, fcgamer said:

Is this all that counts? Title screens? I personally wouldn't go there if I were you

Taken together with the other three facts, it paints a pretty clear picture to everybody but you and wiz

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

1 minute ago, Dr. Morbis said:

3 - Wow, just wow.  We're not talking about an Oil company with a thirty floor headquarters - holy shit!!!  If you don't want to believe him, fine, I don't care.  Just know that it greatly diminishes your credibility as someone trying to find the truth in this matter

4 - Action 52 was sold mailorder and came sealed CIB.  Dragon Warrior was given away by the hundreds of thousands via mail and it came sealed CIB.  In fact, I can't think of a single NES game that came via mail as a loose cartridge.  You're jumping to conclusions about a particular product (NES games) in a particular era that has NO PRECENDENT WHATSOEVER at all in the history of NES releases during the NES era!!!  If that's what you need to do to support your claims, fine, I'm done.  I'm going with the four facts I listed earlier, and as long as @ThePhleo is smart enough to not add this title to his upstanding US release list, then I don't really care what you and TRM, the two mighty non-conformists, think on the matter anymore.

End of Line.

3 - That wouldn't be accepted in small claims court, nevermind the Supreme Court.  Without some evidence to support the statements, unless he had literal first hand knowledge because he packed the orders, his recollection of events is simply not relevant.

4 - Action 52 came later, and was viewed (at least by Active Enterprises) as a premium product with an MSRP of like $200.  That's a far cry from a $20 budget title put out earlier with far less marketing behind it.  Precedents are only useful for guidance, not an absolute statement.  And like I said, who's to say it wasn't just packed in a plain brown box and not repacked when shipped?  A lack of a retail box doesn't mean it never came with one.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Taken together with the other three facts, it paints a pretty clear picture to everybody but you and wiz

To be fair, I don't think anyone else gives enough of a shit to even read the thread at this point