Sharedata Chiller NES Advertisement

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

17 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Even when they came into existence, there's still the wait time for the molds, custom PCBs, etc

https://www.bizapedia.com/az/american-game-cartridges-inc.html

It would appear they started to exist, at least on paper, in February of 1990.  However, they may not have had anything ready aside from the brand.  I'm guessing AGCI as we know it probably didn't exist until a couple months after that, but anything is possible.

Anyway, I'm not taking sides on this at this point, as either side is equally logical.  I'm just interested in figuring out this mystery once and for all.

[Jaden | 151]

I'm just looking for a special someone to play Chiller with this Halloween. It has two player simultaneous action, after all...

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

1 minute ago, Jaden said:

I'm just looking for a special someone to play Chiller with this Halloween. It has two player simultaneous action, after all...

Or you could just go two guns, one dude and play it solo...

[fcgamer | 4,722]

@Dr. MorbisMorbis How about the Sachens, what would your criteria be to get them on the list?

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

That question has more or less been answered.  They were never marketed toward a specific region, rather they were sold to anyone worldwide who desired to sell them.  There is no difference between regions, thus the "worldwide" designation is entirely fair in their case.  That said, being "worldwide" releases should put them as requirements for every region, but then that's just semantics really.  Nobody doubts that they exist, nor that they were sold in the US.  They just refuse to add 70+ rare and expensive titles to their sacred lists.  It's the ghost of Etler's list again.

That said, I also count them separately, although that's more for clarity's sake.  I've got one already, and would love to get the set, but the feasibility of it is just not there.  And I think that's what holds most people back from adding the Sachens to the list.  Much like Sharedata Chiller, it's the feasibility of collecting the full set if it's included that has many people balking at it. 

[fcgamer | 4,722]

My problem with the worldwide designation for the Sachens is as follows:

The 72-pin cartridges had a very small distribution / release worldwide.

Taiwan didn't get these games, neither did Poland, Russia, most of South America, etc etc. Even in Australia and New Zealand, Spica seems to have been the ones releasing the Sachen stuff, on Famicom I might add.

So the only places where the 72 pin Sachens were released seems to be in the States, Canada, and some parts of Europe. The hardly seems worldwide to me.

Then you pair this up with the fact that I'm some regions (like Italy, Germany), Sachen released games with boxes in the local language. So the 72 pin Sachens we are talking about weren't likely for those markets either.

Throw in the fact that Sachen registered their name in a few areas, and that the export line appearing in magazines was listed in English words, world wide seems like a huge stretch for the region.

 

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

@fcgamer in regards to Sachen, you know I’m on team Sachen but the incrediblE amount of Mah Jong games, and Middle School English leads me to believe a good amount of sales were done in Taiwan. Or at least other countries in Southeast Asia

The whole reason I love Sachen is the mystery surrounding them.

My evidence for US Release though is anecdotal at best and misremembering at worst, but as a child I remember seeing X-in-1 plug n play games, and Sachen games on Canal St. in New York City. Canal street was known (and still is known) as the Mecca of bootleg and counterfeit goods for the USA. Mostly ranging from fashion items like purses, wallets, scarves, and watches but also known for bootleg toys and media like movies, music, and for a while, games.

Edited October 26, 2021 by ThePhleo

[fcgamer | 4,722]

19 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

@fcgamer in regards to Sachen, you know I’m on team Sachen but the incrediblE amount of Mah Jong games, and Middle School English leads me to believe a good amount of sales were done in Taiwan. Or at least other countries in Southeast Asia

The whole reason I love Sachen is the mystery surrounding them.

My evidence for US Release though is anecdotal at best and misremembering at worst, but as a child I remember seeing X-in-1 plug n play games, and Sachen games on Canal St. in New York City. Canal street was known (and still is known) as the Mecca of bootleg and counterfeit goods for the USA. Mostly ranging from fashion items like purses, wallets, scarves, and watches but also known for bootleg toys and media like movies, music, and for a while, games.

Understanding Taiwanense culture and guangxi, i personally feel that the likely story with the 72 pin Sachens was this: they ran the export line advertisements in Taiwanense gaming magazines, which would have been available worldwide, hoping to self-publish their games abroad with individual contacts acting as suppliers.

The thing about Taiwanense is that they travel a lot, and the relationship between those abroad and those on the island is generally maintained, somewhat closely. The Sachens were likely sold in Chinatown areas across America, as well as places like you mentioned, which would explain why most folks personally don't remember seeing them in stores.

This would also help explain the Middle School English and Mahjong games; however, I think another explanation is that they just took the whole library of their IP and made 72 pin versions, when people wanted them. The games were already developed, it would have been no hardship.

The reason why I take issue with the worldwide description is that the 72 pin carts definitely weren't distributed in Taiwan (I have a near complete set of the Taiwan Famicom versions), and likewise, the Famicom versions have turned up and have also been advertised frequently in Famiclone regions (and some nes markets like Korea) across the globe. 

Similarly, some nes markets received their own localized versions,like Italy. So by worldwide, it basically means Scandinavia + Finland and USA / Canada, for where the Sachen 72 pin games were sold.

 

 

 

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

2 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Understanding Taiwanense culture and guangxi, i personally feel that the likely story with the 72 pin Sachens was this: they ran the export line advertisements in Taiwanense gaming magazines, which would have been available worldwide, hoping to self-publish their games abroad with individual contacts acting as suppliers.

The thing about Taiwanense is that they travel a lot, and the relationship between those abroad and those on the island is generally maintained, somewhat closely. The Sachens were likely sold in Chinatown areas across America, as well as places like you mentioned, which would explain why most folks personally don't remember seeing them in stores.

This would also help explain the Middle School English and Mahjong games; however, I think another explanation is that they just took the whole library of their IP and made 72 pin versions, when people wanted them. The games were already developed, it would have been no hardship.

The reason why I take issue with the worldwide description is that the 72 pin carts definitely weren't distributed in Taiwan (I have a near complete set of the Taiwan Famicom versions), and likewise, the Famicom versions have turned up and have also been advertised frequently in Famiclone regions (and some nes markets like Korea) across the globe. 

Similarly, some nes markets received their own localized versions,like Italy. So by worldwide, it basically means Scandinavia + Finland and USA / Canada, for where the Sachen 72 pin games were sold.

Yeah, I’m aware of the Italian boxes. I think they’re white boxes with green and purple graphics?

Ive also seen some flyers that are English/German, and English/Spanish (which could either imply Spain, or Central and South America)

Ive seen an entire brochure for one of the Scandinavian countries...Then I’ve seen a South American advertisement for Sachen as well. Can’t remember specifically which country.

We can really go and have been going in circles for years with Sachen and that’s just because there’s a mental barrier that needs to be crossed. No one wants to add 67 titles to the list, but they certainly exist.

[fcgamer | 4,722]

23 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

Yeah, I’m aware of the Italian boxes. I think they’re white boxes with green and purple graphics?

Ive also seen some flyers that are English/German, and English/Spanish (which could either imply Spain, or Central and South America)

Ive seen an entire brochure for one of the Scandinavian countries...Then I’ve seen a South American advertisement for Sachen as well. Can’t remember specifically which country.

We can really go and have been going in circles for years with Sachen and that’s just because there’s a mental barrier that needs to be crossed. No one wants to add 67 titles to the list, but they certainly exist.

I think the Spanish advert you saw is for South America, but the carts shown are famicom cartridges, and the company Electrolab is acting as the distributor.

I agree, the problem is more about adding carts to "the list" for those going for full sets.

[fcgamer | 4,722]

Similarly, I'd like to throw out the idea that the b/w S.E.I. Impossible Mission II carts are samples or magazine demos. 

It's odd for me that these would be retail, then the coloured label ones also would be retail.

The only other situation would be that they sold so many copies, ran out of coloured labels, then printed the others to fulfill orders.

Let's discuss.

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

Well, looking at YouTube videos about this game with the title screen…

Turns out a VAST majority of them are Sharedata title screens.

So, yeah when you ordered from this order form you were If not 100% of the time, then 99.9% of the time getting a AGCI cart with Sharedata title screen.

The only chance this has at being a unique release is if there’s a record of someone saying “I ordered from XYZ source and got this blue cartridge” … which would still be iffy. It’s still possible that you got a blue cart with the original order form, but again who knows at this point.

 

Cant believe in all these years I never thought of actually booting up a chiller cartridge. Maybe because I never did and still don’t own one

[fcgamer | 4,722]

The AGCI shells are listed as patent pending, when was the patent applied?

[fcgamer | 4,722]

5 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

Well, looking at YouTube videos about this game with the title screen…

Turns out a VAST majority of them are Sharedata title screens.

So, yeah when you ordered from this order form you were If not 100% of the time, then 99.9% of the time getting a AGCI cart with Sharedata title screen.

The only chance this has at being a unique release is if there’s a record of someone saying “I ordered from XYZ source and got this blue cartridge” … which would still be iffy. It’s still possible that you got a blue cart with the original order form, but again who knows at this point.

 

Cant believe in all these years I never thought of actually booting up a chiller cartridge. Maybe because I never did and still don’t own one

I disagree, actually I think it strengthens the case in reverse.

They used the old rom release / surplus PCBs until they ran out, then they edited the rom and released carts with the updated rom.

It's likely the PCBs were manufactured in larger quantities than the shells, so that explains old version ROMs going into AGCI shells.

 

[fcgamer | 4,722]

People who disagree, well it's very common here in the bootleg famicom market, it's always the PCBs getting off-loaded as surplus.

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

I think we’re saying the same thing in different ways.

Sharedata (the entity) clearly advertised and manufactured a VERY tiny amount of labels and bought some surplus shells from Color Dreams. They *might* have sold those ones through the catalog order form.

What IS clear is that they manufactured a ton of boards and threw them in what we now call AGCI shells, with AGCI labels.

Later reprints clearly edited the title screen.

[fcgamer | 4,722]

8 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

I think we’re saying the same thing in different ways.

Sharedata (the entity) clearly advertised and manufactured a VERY tiny amount of labels and bought some surplus shells from Color Dreams. They *might* have sold those ones through the catalog order form.

What IS clear is that they manufactured a ton of boards and threw them in what we now call AGCI shells, with AGCI labels.

Later reprints clearly edited the title screen.

We should look up the patent application.

I'm more convinced than ever that the advert went with the blue carts.

They started off small, that's why they got the kit from CD, sold a few units, then upgraded half a year later.

I'm currently starting a business and we're doing the exact same thing, only it's not games.

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

Seems we’re close to the truth. Just gotta dig up some more information. All were really missing is dates of events.

Chip dates, dates of incorporation, corporate structure, etc.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

2 hours ago, ThePhleo said:

I think we’re saying the same thing in different ways.

Sharedata (the entity) clearly advertised and manufactured a VERY tiny amount of labels and bought some surplus shells from Color Dreams. They *might* have sold those ones through the catalog order form.

What IS clear is that they manufactured a ton of boards and threw them in what we now call AGCI shells, with AGCI labels.

Later reprints clearly edited the title screen.

They didn't manufacture their own boards, they also bought them from Color Dreams.  Find me an AGCI release with a non-Color Dreams board and we can go from there.  My guess is that they sourced a few shells from Color Dreams, but ended up finding a different supplier for shells, but kept ordering the boards from CD.  A purely financial decision most likely - go with what costs the least.  They may also have wanted to distinguish their product from Color Dreams in a way that using recognizable blue shells would have not allowed.  So there are two real possibilities here:

A: Sharedata, prior to the formation of AGCI, placed ads in at least four months of GamePro, and made Color Dreams carts to fulfill the orders, switching mid-production after the incorporation of AGCI in February 1990.  With the first advert being in the February issue (so publicly released in January), this would account for the low production numbers of the Sharedata version.

B: The Sharedata carts were manufactured as a "proof of concept" to send to various distributors and were never actually sold to the public.

I think however, the truth may be somewhere between.  Because it's a mail-away budget title, Sharedata likely didn't even bother making a box for it (a manual is more likely but could potentially have been skipped as well).  The game sold poorly via mail order, so AGCI was created to focus on NES distribution, getting their games on store shelves.  AGCI would have made the call to switch from Color Dreams shells to one unique to them, as well as printing boxes and manuals and upping the price from $19.99 to $29.99 on store shelves.  This would mean that the Sharedata carts WERE sold to the public, but only a small number of them were ever sold before AGCI was created and took over.  I would be curious to see when an AGCI Chiller ad might have begun making the rounds, if anyone has a lead on that, that'd be great, as I have a bunch of homework and a late class and won't have time to do the digging today

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

@the_wizard_666 I mean there is the old NES World copy in a licensed grey cart.

http://www.nesworld.com/fakechiller.php

decade and a half later that website is still full of some stuff people just straight up forgot about.

The board is a near 1:1 clone of color Dreams though.

 

Edit: looking at the grey cart in the article, it’s definitely a homemade peel job. So that means it’s likely an ordinary AGCI release with an AGCI board…clearly AGCI boards exist though.

Edited October 26, 2021 by ThePhleo

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

1 hour ago, ThePhleo said:

@the_wizard_666 I mean there is the old NES World copy in a licensed grey cart.

http://www.nesworld.com/fakechiller.php

decade and a half later that website is still full of some stuff people just straight up forgot about.

The board is a near 1:1 clone of color Dreams though.

 

Edit: looking at the grey cart in the article, it’s definitely a homemade peel job. So that means it’s likely an ordinary AGCI release with an AGCI board…clearly AGCI boards exist though.

Show me an AGCI board though.  Bootgod shows a Color Dreams PCB.  The thread that popped up about Chiller in this subforum is on a Color Dreams PCB.  AGCI made cart shells, but did they ever make a PCB?  Doubtful.  It makes sense to visually differentiate between carts by using their own shells, but the internals wouldn't make a difference.  Hell, even their back labels are Color Dreams backs and not AGCI specific.  The ONLY unique part of the cart is the shell.

EDIT: Referring specifically to Chiller.  Shockwave and Death Race both have AGCI boards...but when you've already got the ROM working on one board, you don't try and make it work on a new one, you just stick with what works.  Again, they likely just stuck the CD internals into an AGCI shell.

Edited October 26, 2021 by the_wizard_666

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

4 hours ago, the_wizard_666 said:

I think however, the truth may be somewhere between.  Because it's a mail-away budget title, Sharedata likely didn't even bother making a box for it (a manual is more likely but could potentially have been skipped as well).  The game sold poorly via mail order, so AGCI was created to focus on NES distribution, getting their games on store shelves.  AGCI would have made the call to switch from Color Dreams shells to one unique to them, as well as printing boxes and manuals and upping the price from $19.99 to $29.99 on store shelves.  This would mean that the Sharedata carts WERE sold to the public, but only a small number of them were ever sold before AGCI was created and took over.

Wow, you're jumping to conclusions again!  How do you know how well Chiller sold via mail-order vs brick & mortar?  Where are you drawing that conculsion from?  Oh yeah, you're making the erroneous assumption (again!) that the mail-orders were sold "Sharedata" carts with no box and manual while the retail were sold AGCI Chiller.  The problem is: you have NOTHING to back this up other than your personal assumptions based on not knowing how business works.  But don't worry, I'll clear it up for you; that's what I'm here for  

You said that Gamepro ad was in like four or five issues, right?  That means two things: sales were rather brisk (or why keep paying for the ad month after month), and that the mail orders were filled with AGCI CIB games (because if they were selling Sharedata carts over four or five months there would be hundreds or thousands around today to prove it).

Mike, here's what you can't seem to wrap your head around: AGCI  IS  SHAREDATA!!!!!!!!!!  Once you posted your research that the ad was in for many consecutive months, that basically threw all of the circumstantial evidence on planet earth in favour of the Sharedata cart not being "released."  At this point, you would need one hell of a smoking gun to convince any logical person otherwise.....

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

16 hours ago, fcgamer said:

@Dr. MorbisMorbis How about the Sachens, what would your criteria be to get them on the list?

@fcgamer: My problem is that you lump them all together.  That's like asking about "Konami" and then saying Noah's Ark should be listed since it's "Konami." I have no problem with listing an individual Sachen title on the US list if it's proven to have been sold on US soil pre-'97, but it is wrong to list them all categorically.  Do you see what I'm saying?  The argument, "well I remember seeing title X and Y for sale when I was a kid so Sachens should count," is terribly flawed.  You have to look at each title individually and assess its merits as a possible US release, and as of right now, I personally believe less than five titles out of the entire Sachen catalog could be convincingly proven to have been sold on US soil during the life of the NES...

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

6 hours ago, fcgamer said:

I'm more convinced than ever that the advert went with the blue carts.

As @the_wizard_666 wrote, the ad was supposedly up for many months in GamePro; that pretty much kills your theory right there....

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

58 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Wow, you're jumping to conclusions again!  How do you know how well Chiller sold via mail-order vs brick & mortar?  Where are you drawing that conculsion from?  Oh yeah, you're making the erroneous assumption (again!) that the mail-orders were sold "Sharedata" carts with no box and manual while the retail were sold AGCI Chiller.  The problem is: you have NOTHING to back this up other than your personal assumptions based on not knowing how business works.  But don't worry, I'll clear it up for you; that's what I'm here for  

You said that Gamepro ad was in like four or five issues, right?  That means two things: sales were rather brisk (or why keep paying for the ad month after month), and that the mail orders were filled with AGCI CIB games (because if they were selling Sharedata carts over four or five months there would be hundreds or thousands around today to prove it).

Mike, here's what you can't seem to wrap your head around: AGCI  IS  SHAREDATA!!!!!!!!!!  Once you posted your research that the ad was in for many consecutive months, that basically threw all of the circumstantial evidence on planet earth in favour of the Sharedata cart not being "released."  At this point, you would need one hell of a smoking gun to convince any logical person otherwise.....

That quoted paragraph was my opinion based on what data is available, as noted by the statement "I think" at the beginning of it.  The ads themselves were probably taken out in a chunk...it's cheaper to pay for multiple months in one go than to pay for them individually.  They may have even been able to submit an addendum to the existing ad at no extra cost (the "coming soon" variation showing up two for the last two issues).  The likelihood here is that they were trying to sell their first game, and it was far more cost-effective to pay for multiple months in advance.  And since the ad appeared in the magazine in January (remember, magazines hit store shelves a month before the issue date, so February 1990 would be on store shelves in January), the first issue of the magazine came out BEFORE AGCI WAS INCORPORATED.  As AGCI didn't exist before February in any form, there couldn't have been an AGCI variant available yet.  The logo, cart design, etc, would've come up AFTER the company existed.  So even if orders were fulfilled with AGCI carts at some point, the earliest orders would likely have been in the Color Dreams shells.  Yet the price listed in the ad doesn't change.  So again, my THEORY of events is simple - Sharedata takes out the ad, but sells very few copies via mail order.  During that time, they created a subsidiary company to take over the NES side of the business, at which point they didn't pull out another advert because they were planning the relaunch under that brand.  That relaunched version was likely sold in stores (find me a later advert that shows it available for mail order), and cost an extra $10 for unknown reasons, the likelihood being that there were increased costs associated with it.  This is about the only logical conclusion I can think of that actually takes every factor into account.  The question then becomes whether the Sharedata one would count as a separate release (like the AVE/SEI Impossible Mission carts, or Caltron/Myriad) or if it was simply a variant of the AGCI one.  The fact that the ads were out prior to the incorporation of AGCI strongly indicates that the Sharedata variation was indeed an actual release.  It likely sold very poorly, being an adult-oriented title being sold via mail order only, explaining the low numbers, but it definitely sold at least a few copies.

On a related note, does anyone have any scans of any AGCI specific adverts to show when they may have began production?  My guess would be that they would've appeared in late 1990 sometime...possibly even early 1991 issues.  Also any relevant articles from gaming, business, or tech magazines might be of use.  Anything that even mentions Sharedata or AGCI may have some useful tidbits.

Edited October 27, 2021 by the_wizard_666