International Politics / Current Events Thread

[phart010 | 1,707]

3 hours ago, Link said:

Occupied people fighting back are not aggressors. 

 

I applaud you for understanding the injustices done to the Palestinian people. Unfortunately it is not that simple.

Maybe you could undo the land grab shortly after it had happened. But now some of the lands stolen from Palestinian people have been occupied for multiple generations. So the original thief settler stole the land and forced the Palestinian person out and raised his family on it. His kids were born on stolen land. They grew up, got married and raised their families on the stolen land. Their kids were born on the land etc..

The point I am making is that even though the land is stolen, you now have “innocent” multigenerational Israeli families living on them. The Israeli families living  on the land today did not do the stealing, they were just born on it and are trying to live life. So even though the land is stolen, it would still be an injustice to force them off of it.

Even if someone stole the land more recently, for example let’s say a settler kicked a Palestinian out of their home 5 years ago, what can you do? If you do justice for this person, everyone will want you to do the same against every single settler. The legal resources to investigate every case simply don’t exist. They would be holding trials for the next 100 years. So that’s not a practical solution.

That is why this conflict is so complicated. It is already too late to undo a lot of the wrong. But you can still clearly see the wrong that was done. So many of the people that were forced out of their homes are still alive today and they still have their eyes set on taking their original home back. For those people, I think they reparations must be made. Israel should build them a new home in a nice setting. Or they should see if maybe the settlers would be willing to move to a new home in order to give the home back to the original owners.

Even though the Palestinians are fighting back against an occupation, their fight is not always directed at the right people. I would say that if someone is forcing you out of your home, you are in the right to fight them. But it is not right when Palestinians direct their fight against random Israelis just because they are on the other side.

[Link | 2,714]

7 hours ago, phart010 said:

even though the land is stolen, you now have “innocent” multigenerational Israeli families living on them.

No disagreement and there are strong parallels to what you’re saying in America (and my city/state/ neighborhood) beyond what the graphic shows visually. As I’ve said, correcting this from where things are today is a very complex matter. 

[avatar! | 1,819]

19 hours ago, phart010 said:

I will reply to you after you acknowledge that i24news lied about what it says in the survey.

 

I'm not sure why there should be this tit for tat -- just reply to what I asked -- I'm still waiting for a reply to what I asked days ago. As for i24, they may very well have been misled. Or maybe they lied, but typically during war there is always some misinformation, especially during atrocities. Hamas absolutely did butcher babies --

https://www.factcheck.org/2023/10/what-we-know-about-three-widespread-israel-hamas-war-claims/

Yes, the "beheadings" is unsubstantiated, but at the end of the day the murder of innocent babies is certainly substantiated by numerous independent organizations. Here's another thing, the NYT originally claimed that an Israel attack leveled al-Ahli Hospital. Now, it's universally known it as a Hamas rocket -- the video evidence is there for everyone to see --

The Times in fact apologized (more or less) for this rush to judgment.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/23/pageoneplus/editors-note-gaza-hospital-coverage.html

However, it's not at all uncommon for news channels to get things wrong. Sometimes because they're biased, some times for other reasons. At any rate, no one denies Hamas murdered over 1200 innocent people when they attacked on Oct 7th. If you can't agree to this which has been verified independently over and over, then there's no point in even trying to have a discussion with you, because you're too biased.

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by avatar!

[avatar! | 1,819]

16 hours ago, Link said:

Israel is not Judaism.

True, and you must agree that Mecca is not Islam and that Vatican City is not the Catholic Church, correct?

However, the aforementioned are an integral part of their religious identity, just like Israel is an integral part of Judaism. So saying "Israel is not Judaism" is ignoring and quite honestly dismissing the historical, cultural, and religious identity for many Jews. To be clear, I'm not saying you nor anyone else here is intentionally dismissing the concerns of millions of Jews -- but that said, Israel is an integral part of Judaism.

By the way, I absolutely agree that criticism of Israel does not automatically make it nor in essence is it antisemitic. If you believe Israel has no right to exist I absolutely see that as antisemitic. If you hate Netanyahu, well, you would be in line with most Israelis since his approval rating is something around 10% -- he's absolutely, in part, responsible for what has happened and apparently most Israelis want to see him not only kicked out of office but held accountable for many of the issues happening now.

[phart010 | 1,707]

7 hours ago, avatar! said:

I'm not sure why there should be this tit for tat -- just reply to what I asked -- I'm still waiting for a reply to what I asked days ago. As for i24, they may very well have been misled. Or maybe they lied, but typically during war there is always some misinformation, especially during atrocities. Hamas absolutely did butcher babies --

https://www.factcheck.org/2023/10/what-we-know-about-three-widespread-israel-hamas-war-claims/

Yes, the "beheadings" is unsubstantiated, but at the end of the day the murder of innocent babies is certainly substantiated by numerous independent organizations. Here's another thing, the NYT originally claimed that an Israel attack leveled al-Ahli Hospital. Now, it's universally known it as a Hamas rocket -- the video evidence is there for everyone to see --

The Times in fact apologized (more or less) for this rush to judgment.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/23/pageoneplus/editors-note-gaza-hospital-coverage.html

However, it's not at all uncommon for news channels to get things wrong. Sometimes because they're biased, some times for other reasons. At any rate, no one denies Hamas murdered over 1200 innocent people when they attacked on Oct 7th. If you can't agree to this which has been verified independently over and over, then there's no point in even trying to have a discussion with you, because you're too biased.

 

i24news was not “misled”… I don’t even know what that means. There is a survey. They are a news agency. If they report what a survey says, they have to read the survey. If they report it says something vile, which in fact the survey does not say, that means they are lying.

Ok - we have cleared that up. They lied. And you have also acknowledged there is always misinformation especially during atrocities. Therefore, knowing there is tons of misinformation in circulation, it should not be a problem for me to want to see some better evidence of the Israeli deaths before accepting the official story. I am not saying it didn’t happen. I just want to confirm the primary evidence, like the actual dead people. What I have seen in video so far is a lot of zipped up body bags.

The reason I am willing to believe that Palestinians are being killed is because I am seeing tons of gruesome images of dead Palestinians. I am willing to believe that the Holocaust happened because I see gruesome images of piles of bodies of Holocaust victims. I will also believe that 1200+ Israeli civilians were killed when I see some better evidence.

I understand the Israelis wanting to show respect for the dead. But what’s more important right now? Respecting the dead by not photographing them, or dispelling any doubts that the public has about the conflict? And no this is not just a ‘me’ issue.. there are tons of people that are asking the same questions. So please dispel our doubts.

Regarding the hospital that was blown up.. maybe it was blown up by Hamas, maybe it was Israel. The video footage in my opinion and in the opinion of others is inconclusive. Yes - the mainstream media says it Hamas.. woohoo. That’s the default position for everything. To me the amount of damage doesn’t look consistent with the little tiny rockets Hamas has.

But this one incident doesn’t give the full picture. Because even if we assign this hospital bombing to Hamas, Israel has still deliberately cut off all food, water, electricity, medical supplies and generator fuel deliveries to the other hospitals. These hospitals have had to shut down their ICU’s and allow all the critically injured Palestinian people and premature Palestinian babies in intensive care die. Whether dropping a bomb on a hospital or choking off supplies to a hospital, both result in disabling the hospital operations and causing civilian deaths.

 

According to the Torah (and by the way I am not claiming to be a Torah scholar, but I am referencing the claim of a religious Jewish rabbi who IS referencing a Jewish Scholar) the prophecy is that:
1. First the Jewish messiah returns and
2. Then he re-opens Israel for the Jewish people.

Why does this matter? Because:
1. if you are going to make a religious claim to something, then you aught to at least believe in the religion that the claim is attached to.. and
2. the claim you are making should be in agreement with your religious beliefs.

Here is what Wikipedia says about religious polling of Israelis:

Concerning the existence of a deity, the results of four major polls, conducted between 2009 and 2019, imply that some 20% of Jewish Israelis do not believe in God: 11% "sometimes think God exists" and 9% are convinced atheists.^[13]Regarding other supernatural notions, 28% of respondents to the Guttman 2009 survey denied efficacy to prayer, 33% did not believe that the Jews are a chosen people, 35% did not affirm that the Law and the precepts are God-given, 44% rejected the notions of a World to Comeand afterlife, and 49% did not believe in a future coming of a Messiah. These findings largely commensurate with the 1991 and 1999 surveys.

So :
-20% of Israelis are atheist and don’t believe in a God.
-49% of Israelis don’t believe in a Jewish Messiah.

If you are going to make a religious argument that the current state of Israel is the Jewish homeland, you should at least believe in God and the Messiah… And even if you do believe in God and the Messiah, who do we identify as the Messiah that opened up Israel for the Jewish people? According to religious Jews, he has not come yet. So this leaves a question mark on the religious claim to the state of Israel.

Ok… let’s say you don’t care about the religious argument. Fair enough. I am only saying the way Israel came to be was wrong. I am not in support of Hamas or in support of Israel. I just want the injustice to stop. Stop killing innocent people on both sides. Stop lying about who did what or who killed who. Stop stealing peoples land or wanting to steal land back. Create a functional and peaceful government for the Palestinian people. Take all that military budget and develop massive new housing on the empty land for all the people who lost their homes. Destroy the wall surrounding Gaza. Create a functional economy for Palestinians so they can have something to do other than contemplate how awful their situation is.

 

[phart010 | 1,707]

@avatar!just wanted to point out that on Tuesday, you said:

That one line right there above just spokes volumes about your viewpoint -- Can you not accept facts? If Hamas harmed innocent people -- not even Hamas denies that they kill women and children! Every single news network across the world knows that on Oct 7th Hamas attacked Israel and killed over 1400 innocent people, including babies, children, and women. As well as kidnapping over 200 civilians of all nationalities. But, you still say "If" implying you refuse to accept facts.

 

Since then facts have changed. 200 of the 1400 were not Israelis, they were actually Hamas. So that decreases the factual 1400 down a new factual 1200.

Also the fact that Hamas killed 1200 innocent Israeli civilians has actually changed. 368 of those 1200 were actually IDF soldiers, 59 were police officers. So 773 were civilians.

Also, the fact that 773 civilians were killed by Hamas has also changed. It is now known that many of the hostages were actually killed by IDF soldiers in the crossfire amid all of the chaos.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/authorities-name-44-soldiers-30-police-officers-killed-in-hamas-attack/

So yeah. I still don’t excuse Hamas for killing even 1 innocent civilian. And I am sure they have killed innocent civilians. But you have accused me of being some kind of terrorist sympathizer for not immediately accepting the reporting as 100% factual while the situation is still hot. And now that things cooled down, the “facts” that you wanted me to accept have all changed.

Edited November 19, 2023 by phart010

[avatar! | 1,819]

1 hour ago, phart010 said:

It is now known that many of the hostages were actually killed by IDF soldiers in the crossfire amid all of the chaos.

I'm guessing your source for that is Hamas, because no other channel has reported anything like that. You're just making things up that fit your narrative with no legitimate source behind them. Also, you pretend to be open-minded but you're absolutely not --

Regarding the hospital that was blown up.. maybe it was blown up by Hamas, maybe it was Israel. The video footage in my opinion and in the opinion of others is inconclusive.

No, the video opinion is 100% conclusive. The only people who are inconclusive are people that support Hamas, refuse to accept the legitimacy of the State of Israel, and refuse to accept facts.

[phart010 | 1,707]

1 hour ago, avatar! said:

I'm guessing your source for that is Hamas, because no other channel has reported anything like that. You're just making things up that fit your narrative with no legitimate source behind them. Also, you pretend to be open-minded but you're absolutely not --

Regarding the hospital that was blown up.. maybe it was blown up by Hamas, maybe it was Israel. The video footage in my opinion and in the opinion of others is inconclusive.

No, the video opinion is 100% conclusive. The only people who are inconclusive are people that support Hamas, refuse to accept the legitimacy of the State of Israel, and refuse to accept facts.

SOURCE 1: Haaretz - IDF military helicopter firing at terrorists also kills Israelis

https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2023-11-18/ty-article/0000018b-e1a5-d168-a3ef-f5ff4d070000
 

 

SOURCE 2: Electronic Intifada - this is a pro-Palestinian source, but scroll down to the video. They archived this video from an Israeli network that has since been scrubbed from Israeli media. Israeli woman  was a released hostage and says that IDF killed everyone in the compound, including the Israeli hostages.

https://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-forces-shot-their-own-civilians-kibbutz-survivor-says/38861

 

SOURCE 3: Keren Neubach is an Israeli TV reporter. She details on her personal Twitter how the Israeli Defense forces brought a tank to a building known to contain hostages and shells the building, twice killing everyone inside except for 2 hostages:

@avatar! I didn’t know Hamas writes stories in Hebrew for Haaretz

 

There are also additional non-Israeli sources if you are interested 

Edited November 19, 2023 by phart010

[avatar! | 1,819]

27 minutes ago, phart010 said:

SOURCE 1: Haaretz - IDF military helicopter firing at terrorists also kills Israelis

https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2023-11-18/ty-article/0000018b-e1a5-d168-a3ef-f5ff4d070000
 

I put your story through Google Translate, here is the entire story in English --

There is a growing assessment in the security establishment that the terrorists who carried out the massacre on October 7 did not know in advance about the Nova festival held near Kibbutz Ra'im, and decided to come to the place after discovering that a mass event was taking place there. The security system's assessment relies, among other things, on the investigations of the terrorists and the investigation of the incident by the police, from which it appears that the terrorists intended to reach Kibbutz Ra'im and nearby kibbutzim. According to the police, 364 people were killed at the festival. Senior officials estimate that Hamas found out about the existence of the party using drones or parachutes, and directed the terrorists to the location in their communication system. In a video from a body camera of one of the terrorists, he is heard asking a captured citizen for directions to reach the bad guys, even though he was in a different area. One of the findings that strengthen the assessment, according to the police and other security officials, is that the first terrorists arrived at the party from the direction of Route 232 and not from the direction of the fence. According to a police source, an investigation into the incident also revealed that an IDF combat helicopter that arrived at the scene from the Ramat David base fired at the terrorists and apparently also hit some of the revelers who were there. In addition, according to police sources, the party was planned to be held on Thursday and Friday, and on Tuesday evening of the same week, the army approved the organizers of the event to hold it on Saturday as well, after the request of the organizers. The change at the last minute reinforces the assessment that Hamas did not know about the incident. "We estimate that about 4,400 people were present at the event, the vast majority of whom managed to escape following a decision to disperse the event that was made four minutes after the rocket barrage," says a senior police official. The police analysis shows that many of the party participants managed to escape because it was decided to stop the party half an hour before shots were heard.

 

It did not say "kill" anywhere. Also, I have not been able to find more information on the supposed incident above. If that really did happen, and I say "if" because it may very well not have occurred. But if it did occur, fortunately it sounds like innocent people were either lightly hurt or not at all -- hopefully. Of course friendly fire does happen --

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-soldier-killed-in-apparent-friendly-fire-incident-in-west-bank/

IDF says soldier killed in apparent friendly fire incident in West Bank

Note how the IDF immediately says that friendly fire happened and someone was hurt/killed. Again, what you posted above is suspect. Also, earlier you said you can't trust news from Israeli sources -- but I guess you can when it fits your narrative, eh? Anyway, friendly fire happens in every war. Not to minimize the suffering of anyone that is injured or dies by friendly fire, but it's completely different than the massacre of innocent men, women, children -- a massacre that you refuse to acknowledge and clearly never will.

 

You should learn about what really happens in Gaza and the West Bank --

 

Samer Mohammed was born a Palestinian and was, in his own words, "brainwashed to hate Israel". It's horrible that this is happening, but many Palestinians view martyrdom as a lofty goal. Watch the video, learn something --

 

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by avatar!

[phart010 | 1,707]

2 hours ago, avatar! said:

I put your story through Google Translate, here is the entire story in English --

There is a growing assessment in the security establishment that the terrorists who carried out the massacre on October 7 did not know in advance about the Nova festival held near Kibbutz Ra'im, and decided to come to the place after discovering that a mass event was taking place there. The security system's assessment relies, among other things, on the investigations of the terrorists and the investigation of the incident by the police, from which it appears that the terrorists intended to reach Kibbutz Ra'im and nearby kibbutzim. According to the police, 364 people were killed at the festival. Senior officials estimate that Hamas found out about the existence of the party using drones or parachutes, and directed the terrorists to the location in their communication system. In a video from a body camera of one of the terrorists, he is heard asking a captured citizen for directions to reach the bad guys, even though he was in a different area. One of the findings that strengthen the assessment, according to the police and other security officials, is that the first terrorists arrived at the party from the direction of Route 232 and not from the direction of the fence. According to a police source, an investigation into the incident also revealed that an IDF combat helicopter that arrived at the scene from the Ramat David base fired at the terrorists and apparently also hit some of the revelers who were there. In addition, according to police sources, the party was planned to be held on Thursday and Friday, and on Tuesday evening of the same week, the army approved the organizers of the event to hold it on Saturday as well, after the request of the organizers. The change at the last minute reinforces the assessment that Hamas did not know about the incident. "We estimate that about 4,400 people were present at the event, the vast majority of whom managed to escape following a decision to disperse the event that was made four minutes after the rocket barrage," says a senior police official. The police analysis shows that many of the party participants managed to escape because it was decided to stop the party half an hour before shots were heard.

 

It did not say "kill" anywhere. Also, I have not been able to find more information on the supposed incident above. If that really did happen, and I say "if" because it may very well not have occurred. But if it did occur, fortunately it sounds like innocent people were either lightly hurt or not at all -- hopefully. Of course friendly fire does happen --

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-soldier-killed-in-apparent-friendly-fire-incident-in-west-bank/

IDF says soldier killed in apparent friendly fire incident in West Bank

Note how the IDF immediately says that friendly fire happened and someone was hurt/killed. Again, what you posted above is suspect. Also, earlier you said you can't trust news from Israeli sources -- but I guess you can when it fits your narrative, eh? Anyway, friendly fire happens in every war. Not to minimize the suffering of anyone that is injured or dies by friendly fire, but it's completely different than the massacre of innocent men, women, children -- a massacre that you refuse to acknowledge and clearly never will.

 

You should learn about what really happens in Gaza and the West Bank --

 

 

Ok I will agree with you that IDF military helicopter that fired upon and “hit” Israeli civilians may have possibly not killed them because the use of the word “hit” is ambiguous. But in my mind, getting hit by military helicopter ammo means certain death. Just for reference this is the size of military grade heavy weapons ammo compared conventional 22 bullets. And I can totally see Israelis friendly firing on their people because the terrorists may been wearing plain clothes and running just like the Israeli people attending the concert.

 

Hostage situations happen all the time in the US. According to the logic of Israel, it is ok when Hamas uses a Palestinian hostage as a human shield to just bomb the entire Gaza city filled with 600k residents to hell. That is not what I call self defense.

Thats like saying a wanted murderer in Chicago hides in a building and uses the residents of the building as a shield. So we’re just gonna blow up the entire city block and by the way it’s the murderers fault (not the governments) for using the residents of the building as a human shield.

I agree that Israel has the right to defend itself. But you know the situation was under control once the IDF neutralized this attack. Once they went into Gaza Israel’s actions made them aggressors.

You are right. I am not open minded about genocide. As I already stated before, but you seem to have missed, I acknowledge that Hamas killed Israeli military as well as innocent civilians. And I agree this is terrible. 

What I am arguing is the magnitude of the attack that Hamas did. The magnitude of Israel’s response should be proportional to the casualties Israel has suffered. If Hamas came in and only killed 1 Israeli, the world would have called Israel out a long time ago for destroying city. That is a disproportionate response.

Israel has had support in the magnitude of their response based on the headline of 1400 innocent civilians plus 200+ hostages (edit: and 40 beheaded babies). If the actual casualties they suffered were 50% of that, the magnitude of their response should have been significantly reduced.

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by phart010

[phart010 | 1,707]

54 minutes ago, avatar! said:

 

 

 

By the way, if I was you I’d avoid using CBN News as a source to back your claims. They are a looney religious news company from my hometown of Virginia Beach, founded by Pat Robertson who recently passed away. If you didn’t know, he was kind of like a Christian cult leader obsessed with trying to relate every single current event of the past several decades to end times prophecy. He was an extreme Muslim hater, so you can always expect anti Muslim bias from his network. He was also a huge Zionist and he was convinced that God worked miracles through him.

Edited November 19, 2023 by phart010

[avatar! | 1,819]

14 minutes ago, phart010 said:

I agree that Israel has the right to defend itself. But you know the situation was under control once the IDF neutralized this attack. Once they went into Gaza Israel’s actions made them aggressors.

No, the situation has not been under control. For one thing, you're completely neglecting the constant rocket and drone attacks. Since Oct 7 of this year, nearly 10,000 rockets have been launched at civilians.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-fires-rockets-deep-into-israel-setting-off-sirens-tel-aviv-2023-11-10/

Israel's plan is to take out Hamas, destroy their tunnels which are hundreds of miles long. They have build these tunnels and supplied them with the billions of dollars they have received for humanitarian aid. Back in 2014 they already had sophisticated tunnels.

Also, Hamas is holding hundreds of hostages, including babies -- but, where is your outrage for that?

 

[phart010 | 1,707]

1 hour ago, avatar! said:

No, the situation has not been under control. For one thing, you're completely neglecting the constant rocket and drone attacks. Since Oct 7 of this year, nearly 10,000 rockets have been launched at civilians.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-fires-rockets-deep-into-israel-setting-off-sirens-tel-aviv-2023-11-10/

Israel's plan is to take out Hamas, destroy their tunnels which are hundreds of miles long. They have build these tunnels and supplied them with the billions of dollars they have received for humanitarian aid. Back in 2014 they already had sophisticated tunnels.

Also, Hamas is holding hundreds of hostages, including babies -- but, where is your outrage for that?

 

I am outraged by both sides of this conflict. Hamas for kidnapping innocent Israeli civilians and Israel for kidnapping innocent Palestinian civilians. I am also outraged that Israel has forced half of the Palestinian population into a concentration camp called Gaza for the past 20 years. 
 

I am outraged at Hamas for firing missiles into Israel at random civilian locations. I am also outraged that a sophisticated country like Israel would think it is appropriate to use weapons with the most precision capabilities in the world to deliberately destroy civilian targets in Palestine.
 

At least Hamas can argue that they can’t precisely hit military targets since they have crappy weapons. Israel has said they are not interested in precision, they want to do as much damage as possible. They want to “flatten Gaza into a tent city.” Netanyahu has made statements that infer it is now time to exterminate every man, woman and child in Gaza.

How can people not see that Gaza is Auschwitz concentration camp and the IDF are the Nazis?

Edited November 19, 2023 by phart010

[avatar! | 1,819]

18 hours ago, phart010 said:

I am outraged by both sides of this conflict. Hamas for kidnapping innocent Israeli civilians and Israel for kidnapping innocent Palestinian civilians. I am also outraged that Israel has forced half of the Palestinian population into a concentration camp called Gaza for the past 20 years. 
 

I am outraged at Hamas for firing missiles into Israel at random civilian locations. I am also outraged that a sophisticated country like Israel would think it is appropriate to use weapons with the most precision capabilities in the world to deliberately destroy civilian targets in Palestine.
 

At least Hamas can argue that they can’t precisely hit military targets since they have crappy weapons. Israel has said they are not interested in precision, they want to do as much damage as possible. They want to “flatten Gaza into a tent city.” Netanyahu has made statements that infer it is now time to exterminate every man, woman and child in Gaza.

How can people not see that Gaza is Auschwitz concentration camp and the IDF are the Nazis?

I actually agree with much of what you said. However, not everything.

Israel for kidnapping innocent Palestinian civilians

That just does not happen. First of all, Israel never kidnaps. They do arrest, and there is a huge difference. When you're arrested, you have rights. When you're kidnapped, you have no rights and in fact kidnapping is war crime. Secondly, Israel only arrests people suspected of being militants, and honestly this is very rare. In general Israel does NOT want to enter Gaza or the West Bank. Thirdly, Israel does not execute anyone. ANYONE. The death penalty does not exist in Israel. Hamas on the other hand tortures and executes CIVILIANS without hesitation. It's not even clear how many of the hostages are still alive.

I am also outraged that a sophisticated country like Israel would think it is appropriate to use weapons with the most precision capabilities in the world to deliberately destroy civilian targets in Palestine.

Yeah, that stinks. However, Israel is in a state of war. I think Israel should do everything they can to minimize civilian damage and casualties, but of course this is going to happen. Sadly, this is exactly what Hamas was counting on. They knew the world would want a ceasefire and that would be a victory for them. What I think they miscalculated is twofold -- first Israel is not bowing to world pressure. Secondly, Israel's priority is disposing of the trash that is Hamas, NOT rescuing the hostages. Rescuing the hostages is a top priority, but not the top. This caught Hamas by surprise.

They want to “flatten Gaza into a tent city.”

That's not what they want. That quote is out of context --

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/gaza-tent-city-israel-invasion/

the military is preparing "to execute the mission we have been given by the Israeli government… to make sure that Hamas, at the end of this war, won't have any military capabilities by which they can threaten or kill Israeli civilians". That's the goal to make sure Hamas can no longer kill innocent civilians. The "tent city" quote is asinine, I fully agree.

How can people not see that Gaza is Auschwitz concentration camp and the IDF are the Nazis?

100% DISAGREE. You either do not know what Auschwitz or any concentration camp were really like, or you do not know what life is like in Gaza. Don't get me wrong, life in Gaza before Hamas started the war was not good. Now of course it's horrible, thanks to Hamas. However, it's nothing like Auschwitz. You should educate yourself. Honestly, once you start comparing something like what is happening in Gaza, which I agree is a tragedy, but comparing it to Auschwitz, you lose any credibility.

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by avatar!

[phart010 | 1,707]

1 hour ago, avatar! said:

I actually agree with much of what you said. However, not everything.

Israel for kidnapping innocent Palestinian civilians

That just does not happen. First of all, Israel never kidnaps. They do arrest, and there is a huge difference. When you're arrested, you have rights. When you're kidnapped, you have no rights and in fact kidnapping is war crime. Secondly, Israel only arrests people suspected of being militants, and honestly this is very rare. In general Israel does NOT want to enter Gaza or the West Bank. Thirdly, Israel does not execute anyone. ANYONE. The death penalty does not exist in Israel. Hamas on the other hand tortures and executes CIVILIANS without hesitation. It's not even clear how many of the hostages are still alive.

I am also outraged that a sophisticated country like Israel would think it is appropriate to use weapons with the most precision capabilities in the world to deliberately destroy civilian targets in Palestine.

Yeah, that stinks. However, Israel is in a state of war. I think Israel should do everything they can to minimize civilian damage and casualties, but of course this is going to happen. Sadly, this is exactly what Hamas was counting on. They knew the world would want a ceasefire and that would be a victory for them. What I think they miscalculated is twofold -- first Israel is not bowing to world pressure. Secondly, Israel's priority is disposing of the trash that is Hamas, NOT rescuing the hostages. Rescuing the hostages is a top priority, but not the top. This caught Hamas by surprise.

They want to “flatten Gaza into a tent city.”

That's not what they want. That quote is out of context --

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/gaza-tent-city-israel-invasion/

the military is preparing "to execute the mission we have been given by the Israeli government… to make sure that Hamas, at the end of this war, won't have any military capabilities by which they can threaten or kill Israeli civilians". That's the goal to make sure Hamas can no longer kill innocent civilians. The "tent city" quote is asinine, I fully agree.

How can people not see that Gaza is Auschwitz concentration camp and the IDF are the Nazis?

100% DISAGREE. You either do not know what Auschwitz or any concentration camp were really like, or you do not know what life is like in Gaza. Don't get me wrong, life in Gaza before Hamas started the war was not good. Now of course it's horrible, thanks to Hamas. However, it's nothing like Auschwitz. You should educate yourself. Honestly, once you start comparing something like what is happening in Gaza, which I agree is a tragedy, but comparing it to Auschwitz, you lose any credibility.

 

 

[guillavoie | 1,210]

Imagine thinking you are educating someone about Auschwitz.

[avatar! | 1,819]

34 minutes ago, guillavoie said:

Imagine thinking you are educating someone about Auschwitz.

It's amazing how little many people know about the Holocaust, let alone Auschwitz.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2020/01/22/what-americans-know-about-the-holocaust/

Fewer than half of Americans (43%), however, know that Adolf Hitler became chancellor of Germany through a democratic political process. And a similar share (45%) know that approximately 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust. Nearly three-in-ten Americans say they are not sure how many Jews died during the Holocaust, while one-in-ten overestimate the death toll, and 15% say that 3 million or fewer Jews were killed.

I know when I was in 7th or 8th grade we read The Diary of Anne Frank and had to learn about the Holocaust. It seems like now with more and more disinformation going around, things are getting even worse when it comes to Holocaust education.

Holocaust Deniers and Public Misinformation

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/holocaust-deniers-and-public-misinformation?series=20792

Holocaust denial on the Internet is especially a problem because of the ease and speed with which such misinformation can be disseminated. In the United States, where the First Amendment to the Constitution ensures freedom of speech, it is not against the law to deny the Holocaust or to propagate Nazi and antisemitic hate speech. European countries such as Germany and France have criminalized denial of the Holocaust and have banned Nazi and neo-Nazi publications. The Internet is now the chief source of Holocaust denial and the chief means of recruiting for Holocaust denial organizations.

So yeah, I think it's important to try and "educate" someone as best you can.

[phart010 | 1,707]

9 hours ago, avatar! said:

It's amazing how little many people know about the Holocaust, let alone Auschwitz.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2020/01/22/what-americans-know-about-the-holocaust/

Fewer than half of Americans (43%), however, know that Adolf Hitler became chancellor of Germany through a democratic political process. And a similar share (45%) know that approximately 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust. Nearly three-in-ten Americans say they are not sure how many Jews died during the Holocaust, while one-in-ten overestimate the death toll, and 15% say that 3 million or fewer Jews were killed.

I know when I was in 7th or 8th grade we read The Diary of Anne Frank and had to learn about the Holocaust. It seems like now with more and more disinformation going around, things are getting even worse when it comes to Holocaust education.

Holocaust Deniers and Public Misinformation

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/holocaust-deniers-and-public-misinformation?series=20792

Holocaust denial on the Internet is especially a problem because of the ease and speed with which such misinformation can be disseminated. In the United States, where the First Amendment to the Constitution ensures freedom of speech, it is not against the law to deny the Holocaust or to propagate Nazi and antisemitic hate speech. European countries such as Germany and France have criminalized denial of the Holocaust and have banned Nazi and neo-Nazi publications. The Internet is now the chief source of Holocaust denial and the chief means of recruiting for Holocaust denial organizations.

So yeah, I think it's important to try and "educate" someone as best you can.

As a non-Jew, I would never speak about the Holocaust or Auschwitz of my own. Because I have no experience or firsthand knowledge. 

However, Norman Finkelstein does. He is a Jew. Both of his parents were in Auschwitz. All of his extended family were exterminated in Auschwitz. And he has been in Gaza and seen the conditions firsthand. And he says very bluntly that Gaza is a concentration camp.

 

Regarding flattening Gaza into a tent city: whether they meant it literally or not, fact is that 50% of residential homes in Gaza are destroyed by Israeli bombs. So if they didn’t mean it, they sure are doing it.

[avatar! | 1,819]

12 hours ago, phart010 said:

However, Norman Finkelstein...

Finkelstein and Chomsky are two prolific self-hating Jews. They hate everything to do with Israel. After the Hamas attack that left some 1200 dead, this is what Finkelstein said:

“[the attacks] warms [sic] every fiber of my soul”

You can certainly disagree with Israel's policies, even vehemently, but Finkelstein's response clearly shows his lack of empathy nor understanding of anything relating to what is happening in the region. Another case in point, David Irving, the Holocaust denier, the same person who has been barred from Austria, Germany, Poland, Italy, and other countries because of his antisemitism, the same Irving that lost a trial here in the USA where the judge said of him --

Irving has for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence; that for the same reasons he has portrayed Hitler in an unwarrantedly favourable light, principally in relation to his attitude towards and responsibility for the treatment of the Jews; that he is an active Holocaust denier; that he is anti-Semitic and racist, and that he associates with right-wing extremists who promote neo-Nazism...therefore the defence of justification succeeds...It follows that there must be judgment for the Defendants.

Well THAT Irving is buddy with Finkelstein. In fact, they often speak together, and Finkelstein has repeatedly said that Irving is "a very good historian" despite the fact that he is disgraced and only far-right people listen to him. Well, far-right and antisemites on the left too.

Look, I can find crazy far-right people who believe that Palestinians should be exiled and Israel should take over all of Gaza and the West Bank. I vehemently disagree with such a view, and most Americans and Israelis do too. The reason I bring this up is because Finkelstein, Irving, and Chomsky are all like that with respect to Israel. They are so extreme that they really are only supported by antisemites and right-wingers. Heck, here is a decent summary of Finkelstein from Prof. Omer Bartov of Brown University (whom by the way strongly supports the Palestinians) -- he notes that Finkelstein is nothing more than an antisemitic conspiracy theorist:

It [his work and book] is filled with precisely the kind of shrill hyperbole that Finkelstein rightly deplores in much of the current media hype over the Holocaust; it is brimming with the same indifference to historical facts, inner contradictions, strident politics and dubious contextualizations; and it oozes with the same smug sense of moral and intellectual superiority... Like any conspiracy theory, it contains several grains of truth; and like any such theory, it is both irrational and insidious.

 

[phart010 | 1,707]

3 hours ago, avatar! said:

Finkelstein and Chomsky are two prolific self-hating Jews. They hate everything to do with Israel. After the Hamas attack that left some 1200 dead, this is what Finkelstein said:

“[the attacks] warms [sic] every fiber of my soul”

You can certainly disagree with Israel's policies, even vehemently, but Finkelstein's response clearly shows his lack of empathy nor understanding of anything relating to what is happening in the region. Another case in point, David Irving, the Holocaust denier, the same person who has been barred from Austria, Germany, Poland, Italy, and other countries because of his antisemitism, the same Irving that lost a trial here in the USA where the judge said of him --

Irving has for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence; that for the same reasons he has portrayed Hitler in an unwarrantedly favourable light, principally in relation to his attitude towards and responsibility for the treatment of the Jews; that he is an active Holocaust denier; that he is anti-Semitic and racist, and that he associates with right-wing extremists who promote neo-Nazism...therefore the defence of justification succeeds...It follows that there must be judgment for the Defendants.

Well THAT Irving is buddy with Finkelstein. In fact, they often speak together, and Finkelstein has repeatedly said that Irving is "a very good historian" despite the fact that he is disgraced and only far-right people listen to him. Well, far-right and antisemites on the left too.

Look, I can find crazy far-right people who believe that Palestinians should be exiled and Israel should take over all of Gaza and the West Bank. I vehemently disagree with such a view, and most Americans and Israelis do too. The reason I bring this up is because Finkelstein, Irving, and Chomsky are all like that with respect to Israel. They are so extreme that they really are only supported by antisemites and right-wingers. Heck, here is a decent summary of Finkelstein from Prof. Omer Bartov of Brown University (whom by the way strongly supports the Palestinians) -- he notes that Finkelstein is nothing more than an antisemitic conspiracy theorist:

It [his work and book] is filled with precisely the kind of shrill hyperbole that Finkelstein rightly deplores in much of the current media hype over the Holocaust; it is brimming with the same indifference to historical facts, inner contradictions, strident politics and dubious contextualizations; and it oozes with the same smug sense of moral and intellectual superiority... Like any conspiracy theory, it contains several grains of truth; and like any such theory, it is both irrational and insidious.

 

Why is it that whenever a Jewish person calls out the atrocities of the state of Israel, a violent genocidal political entity, you guys claim they hate themselves or the Jewish religion?

And why do you only try to slander them and their character but you never address any of the facts and arguments that they raise? 

[avatar! | 1,819]

53 minutes ago, phart010 said:

Why is it that whenever a Jewish person calls out the atrocities of the state of Israel, a violent genocidal political entity, you guys claim they hate themselves or the Jewish religion?

And why do you only try to slander them and their character but you never address any of the facts and arguments that they raise? 

You as usual ignore facts and arguments when it goes against your narrative. Also, other than the two antisemitic Jews you listed, most Jews have very valid criticism of the State of Israel. But of course they also support the State of Israel and understand it's historical and religious connection with the people who have lived their for thousands of years. Furthermore, the vast majority of Jews, and by vast I mean over 80% say Israel is an important part of their Jewish identity.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/

You choosing two people who call themselves Jewish and then pretending as if they speak for Jews is one of the most asinine things I've read recently, and I've read a lot. Also, what exactly do you mean by "you guys" -- sounds like you're trying the old gaslighting technique here. Chomsky and Finkelstein have no facts and their arguments are easily countered. I don't care how often you're going to try and pretend they are legit, they do not speak for anyone other than alt-right winging Neo-nazis such as Richard Spencer, or ulta left-leaning (so far left that they're basically right) antisemites such as Rashida Tlaib.

[G-type | 2,482]

5 hours ago, phart010 said:

Why is it that whenever a Jewish person calls out the atrocities of the state of Israel, a violent genocidal political entity, you guys claim they hate themselves or the Jewish religion?

He tried to do the same thing when I mentioned the grand central station protest.

 

[avatar! | 1,819]

37 minutes ago, G-type said:

He tried to do the same thing when I mentioned the grand central station protest.

In my defense, 1) I was again referring to Chomsky when I replied to you and 2)I did not know about the protest (certainly not the scope, I just thought it was a few people protesting) and 3)you did not link the video -- but all that said, I absolutely concede that you're right, the protest at Grand Central Station in favor of a cease fire did not appear to be antisemitic nor anti-Zionist -- same thing can not be said for Norman Finkelstein. Definitely people have a right to be angry about what is happening thanks to the attacks instigated by Hamas. People have a right to criticize Israel, to criticize it's response. However, when someone claims Israel is a Nazi state, as @phart010 said then you lose ALL credibility with me. Also @phart010 still has not conceded that Hamas killed over 1200 innocent Israelis, he keeps trying to derail that conversation by changing the subject or using sources which can not be verified. Really, it's clear to me that @phart010 has some vendetta against Israel. I'm always open to having a meaningful dialogue. However, that's not possible when the other person just accuses a whole country, ironically enough, a country that was founded for Jews after the Holocaust, of being Nazis.

Edited November 22, 2023 by avatar!

[guillavoie | 1,210]

12 hours ago, avatar! said:

 After the Hamas attack that left some 1200 dead, this is what Finkelstein said:

“[the attacks] warms [sic] every fiber of my soul”

Have you read the full statement in its context though? Cause this kind of truncated quote smells 100% twisted stuff to change the meaning of the original message. I wouldn't be surprised that he was actually describing the event as a resistance act, but not in such an inflammatory way. Also, when did he say that? That's kind of important too to judge the context of the quote.

[phart010 | 1,707]

8 hours ago, avatar! said:

In my defense, 1) I was again referring to Chomsky when I replied to you and 2)I did not know about the protest (certainly not the scope, I just thought it was a few people protesting) and 3)you did not link the video -- but all that said, I absolutely concede that you're right, the protest at Grand Central Station in favor of a cease fire did not appear to be antisemitic nor anti-Zionist -- same thing can not be said for Norman Finkelstein. Definitely people have a right to be angry about what is happening thanks to the attacks instigated by Hamas. People have a right to criticize Israel, to criticize it's response. However, when someone claims Israel is a Nazi state, as @phart010 said then you lose ALL credibility with me. Also @phart010 still has not conceded that Hamas killed over 1200 innocent Israelis, he keeps trying to derail that conversation by changing the subject or using sources which can not be verified. Really, it's clear to me that @phart010 has some vendetta against Israel. I'm always open to having a meaningful dialogue. However, that's not possible when the other person just accuses a whole country, ironically enough, a country that was founded for Jews after the Holocaust, of being Nazis.

I said Hamas is a concentration camp and metaphorically related it Auschwitz. I am saying this on the authority of Norman Finkelstein who is a Jewish man who’s entire family was in Auschwitz and many of them were exterminated there.

I said the IDF are the Nazis metaphorically, because they are the ones doing all of the destruction and killing of the Palestinians in Gaza. I did not refer to the state of Israel as Nazis.

Again let’s recap:
-The walled borders of Gaza prevent any movement out of the area. Anyone escaping into the Israeli side will be shot.
-50% of the homes in Gaza have been destroyed.
-The entire population has been displaced.
-The people are being intentionally starved of food and water.
-Palestinian were being indiscriminately bombed and half of the dead are children.
-Officials in the Israeli government essentially referred to the Palestinians as “human animals” since Hamas are human animals and they make no distinction between the Palestinians and Hamas.  
-The Prime minister of Israel who claims to have total control of all military operations, has publicly stated that he relates the Palestinian operation to Amalek which biblically was a village of people that the Jews destroyed entirely. Not a single soul was spared including every man, woman, child, not even their animals.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/11/benjamin-netanyahu-amalek-israel-palestine-gaza-saul-samuel-old-testament/

Here is the Bible verse he was referring to:
As others quickly pointed out, God commands King Saul in the first Book of Samuel to kill every person in Amalek, a rival nation to ancient Israel. “This is what the Lord Almighty says,” the prophet Samuel tells Saul. “‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

 

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by phart010