International Politics / Current Events Thread

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Ghazi Hamad of the Hamas political bureau said in an October 24, 2023 show on LBC TV (Lebanon) that Hamas is prepared to repeat the October 7 “Al-Aqsa Flood” Operation time and again until Israel is annihilated.

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by avatar!

[Link | 2,714]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/12/israel-only-stop-gaza-attacks-when-complete-quiet

https://truthout.org/articles/israel-is-arming-fascist-militias-to-suppress-dissent-knesset-member-warns/

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/01/opinions/israel-flawed-strategy-defeating-hamas-pape/index.html

 

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31 minutes ago, Link said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/12/israel-only-stop-gaza-attacks-when-complete-quiet

https://truthout.org/articles/israel-is-arming-fascist-militias-to-suppress-dissent-knesset-member-warns/

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/01/opinions/israel-flawed-strategy-defeating-hamas-pape/index.html

 

First link, I can understand why. I wouldn't stop retaliating as long as terrorists continue to launch missiles and other attacks against civilians. NO country would.

Second link, I agree that Israel needs to try to minimize civilian causalities as much as possible -- something Hamas never ever does. However, most of that is just propaganda as far as I can tell.

Third link, well the analyst says Israel should engage in long campaigns of selective pressure, over years, not simply a month (or two, or three) of heavy ground operations, and to combine military operations with political solutions from early on. That does sound logical. EXCEPT, it was already tried and failed. You can't have peace if one party absolutely refuses it and will arm themselves and attack, which is exactly what happened.

What I want to hear from @Link is a response to the video in my previous email, which was conducted in Lebanon, where the Hamas political bureau clearly and unequivocally states they they want to:

1)"Annihilate Israel". Not have peace, literally destroy.
2)Replace Israel with an Islamic state ruled under Sharia law.
3)The 1400 civilians butchered by Hamas are "just the first" and there will be more "waves".
4)Hamas is ready to sacrifice as many civilians as needed, because they are "a nation of martyrs".

What is your response to that? Rather than just selectively post "progressive" messages, I want a response to the video posted FROM HAMAS -- this is from the mouth of Hamas. They are clearly stating their objectives. What is your response? Politics does not work and has not worked. In 2005, in fact by September Israel's withdrawal from the entire Gaza Strip to the 1967 Green Line was completed. They in fact evicted a number of Israeli settlements at that time. Where's the peace?

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Excellent article, everyone should read this --

This moment in history has created a perfect storm for antisemitism

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/01/opinions/dagestan-antisemitism-rise-israel-ghitis/index.html

The wrenching scenes from Gaza have provided the fuel for new protests, with some calling for a ceasefire and some chanting, “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” — a chant that rejects the existence of Israel. The protests started soon after news of the attack spread, while Israel was still fighting Hamas terrorists on its side of the border.

Once Israel’s military response ramped up, the world seemed to disregard what Hamas did. The United Nations General Assembly passed a call for a ceasefire, but it rejected a motion to condemn Hamas.

The historian Simon Sebag Montefiore, dismantling the “decolonization narrative” that scholars use against Israel, noted bitterly, “I always wondered about the leftist intellectuals who supported Stalin, and those aristocratic sympathizers and peace activists who excused Hitler.” Now, he said, he sees the same pattern among Hamas apologists and atrocity deniers, who ignore overwhelming evidence of what Hamas is and what it did.

It is critical that influential leaders highlight the fact that criticism of Israel routinely becomes a cover for antisemitic rhetoric and worse. And it is long past time to examine the curricula that distort history, for example drawing false analogies between the experiences of Black Americans and in the Middle East, often turning young progressive students into supporters of the oldest hatred.

Clearly, there’s much room for legitimate debate and disagreement about Israel’s actions. (Hamas’s actions are beyond excuse). But there’s no doubt that many of those who claim they are “anti-Zionist” rather than antisemitic are just using a newer word for a hatred that’s been around for thousands of years.

[Link | 2,714]

2 hours ago, avatar! said:

Clearly, there’s much room for legitimate debate and disagreement about Israel’s actions.

I agree. 

 

2 hours ago, avatar! said:

there’s no doubt that many of those who claim they are “anti-Zionist” rather than antisemitic are just using a newer word for a hatred that’s been around for thousands of years.

I do not agree. Zionism has felt kind of creepy to me all my life. Anti-Zionism also has, to be fair. It’s all kind of a hot potato? The IDF has also always seemed very strange to me with the militaristic attitude. 

My personal perspective is: I was raised with multiple heritages including Ashkenazi, and I grew up celebrating both Christmas and Hannukah for the big holidays at home, as well as attending Passover and Easter and Yom Kippur in a Unitarian Universalist church. 

3 hours ago, avatar! said:

Israel needs to try to minimize civilian causalities as much as possible -- something Hamas never ever does.

I wish Israel would take responsibility for creating Hamas. And Israel-caused casualties are far greater numbers than Hamas-caused, regardless of who has a more socially acceptable attitude. Just by the power differential in warfare technology.

 

Much like USA should have taken responsibility for ISIS, and for Saddam Hussein’s regime before that, and for our real part in the Cuban missile crisis before that, and granting weapons to Al Qaeda… etc. I will not condone imperialism nor ignore the effects of its INTENTIONAL destabilization. We should be so far beyond ignoring the causes of these effects. But no. We are the powerful helping our powerful allies against their accused enemies, accepting one side of the story. 

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/10/israel-gaza-war-manufactured-consent.html

Noam Chomsky

Spoiler

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/4/9/qa-noam-chomsky-on-palestine-israel-and-the-state-of-the-world

now, the main support for Israel is the far-right evangelical community that has become politicised in the last 20 or 30 years as very strong supporters of Israel, mostly for extreme anti-Semitic reasons. Meanwhile, liberals, liberal Democrats, have drifted away. Look at the last poll: among Democrats, there’s more sympathy for Palestinians than for Israel. It’s particularly true among younger people, including younger Jews.

and Bernie Sanders

Spoiler

https://www.commondreams.org/news/bernie-sanders-israel

acknowledged Israeli and Egyptian blockades of Gaza over the past couple of decades, which led to living conditions that "were horrific and inhumane" long before Hamas' October 7 attacks. He said that "if we are serious about bringing freedom and dignity to the Palestinian people, that is a situation that can never be allowed to be returned to. The Palestinian people are entitled to much more than that."

The senator called out Hamas as "an authoritarian terrorist organization" that is guided by a "fundamentalist ideology" and rules by force while "stockpiling arms and war material, taxing the desperately poor population, and stealing resources to build tunnels and rockets."

 

say things I agree with on these matters. We have an ally who is also powerful, that doesn’t mean they ard slways right. Quite honestly, the entire thing imo stinks of weaponization of pro-Semitism. Again Israel is not Judaism just as USA is not Christianity. 

Show me where criticism of Israel is cover for antisemitism. Like I’m sure that exists in some neonazi bullshit, but show me some legit criticism that aligns with such garbage. Don’t tell me the baby is the bathwater.

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2 hours ago, Link said:

Show me where criticism of Israel is cover for antisemitism.

Wow, there are so many examples I'm at a loss where to start. Here is just one scholarly paper showing just that -- published in a peer-reviewed journal. So not just someone's personal opinion, but based on actual research --

ANTI-ISRAELISM AND ANTI-SEMITISM: COMMON CHARACTERISTICS AND MOTIF

https://www.jstor.org/stable/25834724

Here's just the preface to the article

Anti-Semitisms core theme is that Jews embody absolute evil. It has been propagated intensely for many centuries. This extreme fallacy and its principal submotifs have remained largely the same over the ages. Their representation, however, has evolved according to circumstances. The three main permutations of the core theme are religious anti-Semitism - one might call it more precisely anti-Judaism, ethnic (racist) anti-Semitism, and anti-Israelism or anti-Zionism.

These three permutations have a number of common characteristics. There is an ongoing, powerful promotion of a discourse of Jew-hatred. The main motif of the Jew constituting absolute evil manifests itself according to the prevailing worldviews at a given time. Verbal or physical attacks are common against both Jews and Israelis. Jews and nowadays Israel are judged by standards applied to them but not to others. In its extreme form, the anti-Semitic process has three stages: demonization, isolation, and elimination.

The anti-Semitic character of anti-Israelism can be proved through the analysis of cartoons, opinion-survey findings, statistical analysis, and semantics. During the summer 2006 war in Lebanon, further proof emerged that anti-Semitism and anti-Israelism go hand in hand.

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by avatar!

[avatar! | 1,819]

2 hours ago, Link said:

I wish Israel would take responsibility for creating Hamas.

Except that they did not. In fact, that sounds very much like the antisemitic trope of the "Jewish war conspiracy" --

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_war_conspiracy_theory

The Nazis used it to claim that Jews started the war and sought the destruction of Germany. Hamas also claims Jews started the war and want the destruction of Islam. And of course you can be Jewish and be antisemitic. Noam Chomsky is a perfect example of a self-hating Jew. Well, I should say Jewish in name only. I heard him debate (in person), always against anything Israel would do, in fact he wanted Israel to cease to exist. He never could defend himself well, but he always had the support of any terrorist-supporting person. Literally, people that supported ISIS, Hamas, etc. would flock to him.

Remember how peacefully Jordan let the Palestinians refugees into their country? Of course you don't because they never wanted them nor was there any peace between those supposed "brothers". In fact, it's called the Jordanian Civil War --

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September

The Black September Organization was a terrorist organization founded by Palestinians living in Jordan in 1970. The Jordanians fought against the Palestinians. Arafat claimed the Jordanians killed 25,000 Palestinians. Many scholarly estimates are closer to 1/10 that number. So, the Palestinians were kicked off to Lebanon, which did not want them either, nor does Egypt want them etc... I'm not going to go through the whole history -- learn it if you want to know why basically no Arab country wants to let the Palestinians in as refugees (it's because of Hamas and their history). So who truly created Hamas? Arguably Jordan, arguably just arose naturally from the Palestinians living in Jordan who wanted to overthrow the monarchy. Black September is the predecessor to Hamas, started decades ago.

ps @Link you still ignore the four questions I asked earlier, so I will repost  it here.

the Hamas political bureau clearly and unequivocally states they they want to:

1)"Annihilate Israel". Not have peace, literally destroy.
2)Replace Israel with an Islamic state ruled under Sharia law.
3)The 1400 civilians butchered by Hamas are "just the first" and there will be more "waves".
4)Hamas is ready to sacrifice as many civilians as needed, because they are "a nation of martyrs".

What is your response to that?

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by avatar!

[G-type | 2,482]

While there are certainly many examples of flagrant antisemitism when considering the worldwide opposition to Israel’s actions, conflating these things is very much a bad faith means to discredit the criticism, especially when there are so Jewish voices who are also speaking out. Last week there was a massive demonstration in NYC where Jews protesting Israel shut down grand central station. 

[avatar! | 1,819]

40 minutes ago, G-type said:

While there are certainly many examples of flagrant antisemitism when considering the worldwide opposition to Israel’s actions, conflating these things is very much a bad faith means to discredit the criticism, especially when there are so Jewish voices who are also speaking out. Last week there was a massive demonstration in NYC where Jews protesting Israel shut down grand central station. 

First, Jews can be antisemites. Noam Chomsky is one notable case. In fact, there was even a scholarly book written about him by a professor from Canada --

Partners in hate: Noam Chomsky and the Holocaust deniers

https://www.amazon.com/Partners-Hate-Chomsky-Holocaust-Deniers/dp/0964589702

Of course protesting against Israel is not necessarily antisemitic, but it certainly can be. When you deny Israel the right to exist, then that is antisemitism -- and that happens a lot. The Hamas chant "From the river to the sea..." -- that is antisemitic since it's clear that it wants Jews and Israel annihilated -- as noted in the Hamas charter. Don't take my word for it, read what the AJC says --

https://www.ajc.org/news/7-ways-some-anti-israel-protests-have-spread-antisemitism

There is, of course, nothing antisemitic about advocating for Palestinians to have their own state. However, when protesters chant “From the River to the Sea,” they are rejecting Israel’s right to exist, by indicating that the entire land of Israel should be freed from Jews. Calling for the elimination of the Jewish state denies Jews the right to self-determination. This saying is a historic call-to-arms for terrorist groups and their sympathizers, from the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) to Hamas.

Notice the AJC clearly states there is nothing antisemitic about advocating a Palestinian state -- many Israelis want them to have  a state of their own too. However, that chant is one example of popular antisemitism. Furthermore, the peer-reviewed article I noted above which was written by someone who actually studies such instances, clearly noted that there is a direct verifiable connection between anti-Israeli sentiments and antisemitism, and there are numerous other such articles. Again, not to say that any criticism of Israel is not legit - heck, I've never liked Netanyahu and apparently neither do Israelis! I think his approval rating right now is about 20%. However, that does not change the fact that many people, particularly in Muslim countries and communities, are espousing antisemitism.

One thing I have not heard from you, nor @Link is addressing the clear genocidal message from Hamas. I have yet to hear how you think Israel should respond to this? How would the USA or any other country respond if another country espoused this level of hatred and murdered so many innocent civilians? How would you respond if your family members were raped and then murdered as was the case for over 1400 Israelis who were just living their lives --

the Hamas political bureau clearly and unequivocally states they they want to:

1)"Annihilate Israel". Not have peace, literally destroy.
2)Replace Israel with an Islamic state ruled under Sharia law.
3)The 1400 civilians butchered by Hamas are "just the first" and there will be more "waves".
4)Hamas is ready to sacrifice as many civilians as needed, because they are "a nation of martyrs".

What is your response to that?

Edited November 4, 2023 by avatar!

[Link | 2,714]

18 hours ago, avatar! said:

Wow, there are so many examples I'm at a loss where to start.

Yes that was a malformed question. 

I am going out and will consider other things later. To be clear: I don’t support Hamas, but they are provoked by Israel’s actions against the people of Palestine.

Among my reading on the matter, https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Link

[avatar! | 1,819]

1 hour ago, Link said:

Yes that was a malformed question. 

I am going out and will consider other things later. To be clear: I don’t support Hamas, but they are provoked by Israel’s actions against the people of Palestine.

Among my reading on the matter, https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

 

I have no doubt that much of what has transpired is on Netanyahu's shoulders. Not that he wanted terrorists to attack and kill innocent people, there is simply ZERO excuse for terrorists. That said, he appears to have failed the Israeli people as well as the Palestinians. I'm convinced that after this horrible war is over, he will quickly be replaced.

[G-type | 2,482]

Are you for real giving Link and I purity tests to see if we are opposed to genocide? What do you think?!

[avatar! | 1,819]

On 11/5/2023 at 10:46 AM, G-type said:

Are you for real giving Link and I purity tests to see if we are opposed to genocide? What do you think?!

That's not what I asked -- What I asked is how do you think Israel should react to Hamas? How should any country react to another country which is run by terrorists whose aims are genocide? A country who refuses to accept you, a country that wants to turn your country into an Iran-like state. A country that still launches rockets at civilians daily (including today). And how do you react after the massacre of civilians? Going by percentages, Hamas slaughter of civilians in Israel is equivalent to about 50,000 people murdered here in the USA. It's easy to be critical of Israel and say they are being heavy-handed, but much harder to actually come up with a meaningful plan.

[Link | 2,714]

My plan is don’t occupy someone else’s land for >50 years. To answer the question, try pulling your military out of where it doesn’t belong first, in good faith. Then shower the land with leaflets ordering evacuation, if peace cannot be achieved. And don’t make the evac receiving area equally dangerous.

Quit the ethnic cleansing. (Take your pick.)

31 minutes ago, avatar! said:

Going by percentages, Hamas slaughter of civilians in Israel is equivalent to about 50,000 people murdered here in the USA.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/10/9/israel-hamas-war-in-maps-and-charts-live-tracking 
The latest death toll stands at 10,177 Palestinians and at least 1,405 people killed in Israel since October 7… Israeli air strikes on Gaza have killed one child every 10 minutes since the start of the war.

(That first death toll mentioned includes over 4000 children btw.) Going by the same calculation and comparison, (10K/5M population West Bank + Gaza Strip)(1.4K/10M population Israel) Israel has “slaughtered” equivalent to 650,000/330,000,000 USA residents. In the past month. To say nothing of

Assault on Gaza. Assault on Gaza. Assault on Gaza. Assault on Gaza. Who is the terrorist?

[Link | 2,714]

150 to 6. 

[avatar! | 1,819]

8 hours ago, Link said:

My plan is don’t occupy someone else’s land for >50 years. To answer the question, try pulling your military out of where it doesn’t belong first, in good faith. Then shower the land with leaflets ordering evacuation, if peace cannot be achieved. And don’t make the evac receiving area equally dangerous.

Israel absolutely acted in good faith when they unilaterally withdrew ALL forces from Gaza in 2005. They also removed Israeli settlements that were impeding the process and Gaza was in control of the Palestinian Authority. Tell, how is that not good faith? Ariel Sharon, speaking at the UN, said

The end of Israeli control over and responsibility for the Gaza Strip allows the Palestinians, if they so wish, to develop their economy and build a peace-seeking society, which is developed, free, law-abiding, and transparent and which adheres to democratic principles.

Then in 2006 Hamas took over Gaza. HAMAS has refused to recognize Israel, refused to renounce violence. Oh, but far before 2006 Hamas was already murdering innocent people. The first Oslo Accord, aimed at establishing peace between Israel and the Palestinians, was signed in 1993. Hamas opposed it and instead started a campaign of terror on Israeli civilians. This was going nonstop until 2005, including the kidnapping and murder of teenagers in 2014, and I don't know how many thousands of rockets launched into Israel. I didn't even mention all the suicide bombings -- Hamas does not value life --

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks

Israel assumed that withdrawing entirely from Gaza would potentially, hopefully, possibly, result in peace -- some sort of peace. No such thing. The billions in money Hamas received as humanitarian aid was used to purchase and build rockets and other military buildup, including the extensive underground tunnels used only for terrorist activities.

This rather sums things up --

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/12/opinion/israel-palestinians-gaza-peace.html

Dec. 23, 2000. That was the day the Palestinians were offered a path to having their own nation on roughly 95 percent of the land in the West Bank and 100 percent of the land in the Gaza Strip. Under that outline, Israel would also swap some of its own land to compensate the Palestinians in exchange for maintaining 80 percent of its settler presence in the West Bank.

The Palestinians would control, in President Bill Clinton’s formulation, “Arab areas” of East Jerusalem. And on the most sensitive religious sites, there would have been divided sovereignty or jurisdiction, with Palestinians controlling the Haram al-Sharif (including the Aqsa and Dome of the Rock mosques) and Israel controlling the Western Wall and the holy space of which it is a part. There would also be a return of many refugees into the new Palestinian state.

July 2000...The Palestinian leadership launched the second intifada, bringing a reign of terror to Israeli streets. Still, Clinton and negotiators persisted with meetings at Sharm al-Sheik. By the end of the year, Clinton brought the two sides to the White House. At the pivotal meeting in December, he slowly read aloud the peace plan that would come to be known as the Clinton Parameters. It called for uncomfortable sacrifices from both parties but gave each side what the U.S. negotiators believed they needed. A few days later, the Israeli cabinet voted to accept the plan. Yasir Arafat did what he generally did. He never said no, but he never said yes...Arafat dallied. Momentum was frittered away. Just before Clinton left office, he had one of his final conversations with Arafat. Arafat told him he was a great man. According to his memoir, Clinton replied: “I am not a great man. I am a failure, and you have made me one.”

Hamas and its followers cultivate the fantasy that Israel, a permanent Middle Eastern nation, will magically cease to exist. Its terrorists seek to avenge the wounds of injustice and humiliation with mass murder, without anything remotely resembling a firm plan to improve the quality of Palestinian lives. And in the United States, some students and activists create rally posters with paragliders to celebrate the murderers who descended on the Israeli music festival. It’s all vicious posturing, to make people feel avant-garde and self-righteous, no matter how many decades of real human suffering lie ahead.

[G-type | 2,482]

24 minutes ago, avatar! said:

Israel absolutely acted in good faith when they unilaterally withdrew ALL forces from Gaza in 2005

This is a pretty generous interpretation of what transpired. They withdrew their forces and instituted a 16 year long siege, turning Gaza, into what is widely decried as "the world's largest open-air prison". The living conditions (prior to this current bombardment) were so dire that the U.N. Secretary General described it as "hell on earth". In 2012, the U.N. issued a report warning that if Israel's policies didn't change, this area would become "unfit for human living by 2020". Israel limits their trade which has crushed their economy, leaving most of the population unemployed. And even before Israel bombed their hospitals and ambulances, there was already a full blown health crisis with inadequate supplies of medicine, and Israel denying travel permits to access life saving health care. Electricity only last a few hours a day because Israel limited the fuel going in. Most of their vehicles have had to be converted to run on cooking oil. Official documents from the files of Israel's defense ministry show that they even restricted food imports by calculating the number of calories per capita to keep it just slightly above the starvation level. 

Should I talk about Israel's response in 2018 to the marches they held each Friday to end the siege?

[avatar! | 1,819]

5 minutes ago, G-type said:

This is a pretty generous interpretation of what transpired. They withdrew their forces and instituted a 16 year long siege, turning Gaza, into what is widely decried as "the world's largest open-air prison". The living conditions (prior to this current bombardment) were so dire that the U.N. Secretary General described it as "hell on earth". In 2012, the U.N. issued a report warning that if Israel's policies didn't change, this area would become "unfit for human living by 2020". Israel limits their trade which has crushed their economy, leaving most of the population unemployed. And even before Israel bombed their hospitals and ambulances, there was already a full blown health crisis with inadequate supplies of medicine, and Israel denying travel permits to access life saving health care. Electricity only last a few hours a day because Israel limited the fuel going in. Most of their vehicles have had to be converted to run on cooking oil. Official documents from the files of Israel's defense ministry show that they even restricted food imports by calculating the number of calories per capita to keep it just slightly above the starvation level. 

Should I talk about Israel's response in 2018 to the marches they held each Friday to end the siege?

So, as par for the course, you ignore the fact that Israel withdrew in 2005, and Hamas took over, waged and continues to wage a genocidal campaign against Jews and quite frankly anyone not aligned with them. Israel did impose a blockade on Gaza, due all the suicide bombings and rocket launches which again you choose to ignore. I'll reiterate what Israel told the Palestinians back in 2005 --

The end of Israeli control over and responsibility for the Gaza Strip allows the Palestinians, if they so wish, to develop their economy and build a peace-seeking society, which is developed, free, law-abiding, and transparent and which adheres to democratic principles.

Also, in 2010, the Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas declared that he opposed lifting the Israeli naval blockade of the Gaza Strip because this would bolster Hamas. Egypt agreed. More recently in 2017, the Palestinian Authority imposed its own sanctions against Gaza, including cutting off salaries to many thousands of people in Gaza. Funny how that never gets mentioned. Personally, I think Israel has made many mistakes. However, Hamas is responsible for rejecting peace over and over. Also, it would be wonderful if Hamas did not purposely hide behind human shields in hospitals, schools, mosques, etc. But they do, and well, I guess after Hamas massacred over 1400 innocent Israelis it appears Israel will eliminate them with or without collateral damage. 

Israel publishes ‘proof’ Hamas is hiding terror tunnels under hospital

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/11/05/israel-hamas-concealing-terror-tunnels-hospital/

In a briefing to international media, Israel Defense Force (IDF) spokesman Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari played video footage showing an underground entrance on the site of the Qatari-built Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa al-Thani Hospital in Gaza City, which he said connects to the wide Hamas tunnel network. Another clip shared by the IDF shows Hamas gunmen firing from inside the hospital at Israeli forces outside, Mr Hagari claimed. “If it weren’t enough that we exposed a tunnel under the hospital, the terrorists also shot at our soldiers from within the hospital,” Mr Hagari said. Mr Hagari claimed the IDF also had intelligence which revealed a tunnel network under the Indonesian Hospital - also in Gaza City. He added that aerial imagery showed rocket launchers a few dozen metres from the complex.

Oh, I do agree with you that the health crisis in Gaza was terrible even before Hamas started this war. Well, terrible for most people in Gaza, but not for Hamas --

As Gazans scrounge for food and water, Hamas sits on a rich trove of supplies

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/as-palestinians-scrounge-for-food-and-water-hamas-sits-on-a-rich-trove-of-supplies/

As supplies of virtually every basic human necessity dwindle in the Gaza Strip, one group in the besieged enclave remains well-stocked: Hamas. Arab and Western officials say there is substance to Israeli claims of Hamas stockpiling supplies, including desperately needed food and fuel. Hamas, they say, has spent years building tunnels under the strip where it has amassed stores of virtually everything needed for a drawn-out fight.

Ghattas said there was little chance that Hamas would be willing to provide food or any other kinds of supplies to aid civilians. “The Hamas movement cares only about the Hamas movement,” he said. “The public of Gaza mean absolutely nothing for Hamas.”

[phart010 | 1,707]

As far as orthodox Jews are concerned, they don’t have any business rebuilding Israel from a religious standpoint. Zionism is a pure political movement with religious bits sprinkled on top. 

As for Arabs, they lived in relative peace with Jewish people in the Middle East for centuries. Jews actually fled from persecution in Europe during medieval times into the Middle East as a refuge and lived there all the way up until they ultimately migrated to Israel. So you can’t say Arabs or Muslims have a religious duty to eliminate Jews, cause they had plenty of time to do that and they never did.  

Hamas and the people in Gaza are like a beast locked in a cage. You can’t complain when you stick your hand into the cage and it bites you. Treat them like humans and maybe they will behave better.

The problem with this conflict is that Israel owns like 90% of the reporting on it. It’s pretty obvious that an ethnic cleansing is taking place. Is it a religious war? Only in the sense that the evangelical Christians that control US Middle East policy want Israel to dominate the region because they think it will speed up the second coming of Jesus.
 

[avatar! | 1,819]

22 hours ago, phart010 said:

As far as orthodox Jews are concerned, they don’t have any business rebuilding Israel from a religious standpoint. Zionism is a pure political movement with religious bits sprinkled on top. 

As for Arabs, they lived in relative peace with Jewish people in the Middle East for centuries. Jews actually fled from persecution in Europe during medieval times into the Middle East as a refuge and lived there all the way up until they ultimately migrated to Israel. So you can’t say Arabs or Muslims have a religious duty to eliminate Jews, cause they had plenty of time to do that and they never did.  

Hamas and the people in Gaza are like a beast locked in a cage. You can’t complain when you stick your hand into the cage and it bites you. Treat them like humans and maybe they will behave better.

The problem with this conflict is that Israel owns like 90% of the reporting on it. It’s pretty obvious that an ethnic cleansing is taking place. Is it a religious war? Only in the sense that the evangelical Christians that control US Middle East policy want Israel to dominate the region because they think it will speed up the second coming of Jesus.
 

As far as orthodox Jews are concerned, they don’t have any business rebuilding Israel from a religious standpoint.

Says who? You? Israel is a democracy and any citizen whether they are an orthodox Jew, Muslim, Christian, whatever, has the right to build the country as they see fit -- within the constitution of course.  By the way, the same goes for the USA and other democracies. Also, your statement can be turned around and someone can say "As far as religious Muslims are concerned, they don’t have any business rebuilding Palestine from a religious standpoint." -- let me guess, that doesn't sit well with you?

As for Arabs, they lived in relative peace with Jewish people in the Middle East for centuries.

Depends on your definition of "relative". Let's explore --

In 622 the Jews of Medina (now part of Saudi Arabia) refused to convert and therefore were expelled or murdered by none other than Muhammad himself-- by the way, think Saudi Arabia would restore their ancestral land since Jews had lived their for hundreds of years? NO! Of course not. Easy to be hypocritical -- although I will give Saudi Arabia credit for refusing to sever ties with Israel, which is what Hamas was hoping for.

In 627, again Muhammad himself and his followers destroyed the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza killing around 900 men (some say it was much higher), and divided the surviving Jewish women and children amongst themselves as slaves. Peaceful yet?

"Peaceful" coexistence between Jews and Muslims involved the subordination and degradation of Jews. For example, Jews had to pay an extra tax, and on pain of death they were forbidden to criticize the Koran and Islam in any way shape or form -- this included if what most people would argue today as "fair criticism". Also, if a Muslim converted to Judiasm, the person who converted and anyone associated with them would be murdered.  Oh, and if a Jew touched a Muslim woman, that Jew could likewise be murdered -- although a Muslim man could (with force if needed) take a non­-Muslim as a wife.

Jews did the best they can, often just being the typical scapegoats. For instance, on December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada in Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. What today is known as the 1066 Granada Massacre was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as Jews obtaining political power.

There are so many other instances that I'm almost at a loss as to where to continue. Thousands were murdered in the city of Fez alone during in 1465, thousands murdered in Algiers in the 1800s, Jews were murdered or forced to convert in Yemen for hundreds of years -- many kept their faith secretly and if discovered the entire family (men, women, children) butchered.

More recently, some thousands of Jews were killed in anti-Jewish rioting in the 1940s in Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria, and Yemen.

You could make the argument that Jews were treated far better in Muslim countries hundreds of years ago then there were treated in Europe. You could also make the argument that there was "relative peace", but the facts show that many many thousands were massacred over the years all by Muslims.

My sources? Wikipedia, as well as scholarly books such as this --

https://www.amazon.com/Jews-Islam-Princeton-Paperbacks/dp/0691008078

So you can’t say Arabs or Muslims have a religious duty to eliminate Jews, cause they had plenty of time to do that and they never did.

They absolutely did see it as a "religious duty" and in many instances they absolutely eliminated the Jews entirely! I certainly never said that all Muslims see it as a religious duty to kill/murder/convert Jews, Christians, etc. But for Hamas, it is undeniably a religious duty -- Hamas itself would agree since it's part of their charter --

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

The Movement's program is Islam. From it, it draws its ideas, ways of thinking and understanding of the universe, life and man.

Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.

That's right out of their charter, so to try to pretend Hamas is political and not religious is laughable.

Hamas and the people in Gaza are like a beast locked in a cage. You can’t complain when you stick your hand into the cage and it bites you. Treat them like humans and maybe they will behave better.

Nice hyperbole. Let me ask you when was the last time you were in in the Middle East? Granted, it's been years since I was there last, but I remember talking to people, both young and old, at the West Bank and there sure was hope for peace. I can't say they loved Israel, nor did Israelis love them, but it was a hopeful time on both sides. Also, are you trying to defend Hamas? They are universally acknowledged as terrorists that have murdered men, women, children. 

The problem with this conflict is that Israel owns like 90% of the reporting on it. It’s pretty obvious that an ethnic cleansing is taking place. Is it a religious war? Only in the sense that the evangelical Christians that control US Middle East policy want Israel to dominate the region because they think it will speed up the second coming of Jesus.

The largest Middle East reporting is by Al Jazeera, which is funded by Qatar, they have offices in Israel. Unlike most countries in the Middle East, Israel has freedom of the press. So any newspaper can report from there, whether pro-Israel or anti-Israel. To say "Israel owns like 90% of the reporting on it" is completely unfounded. I will grant you that there is no doubt that Evangelical Christians are a big influence in Middle East policy. However, to again say something unfounded such as that they "control policy" is asinine. Do you consider Joe Biden an evangelical Christian? Last I checked he is still the Commander in Chief of the armed forces and his policy (which I think has overall been solid) certainly does not align with what right-winging people want.

[phart010 | 1,707]

1 hour ago, avatar! said:

As far as orthodox Jews are concerned, they don’t have any business rebuilding Israel from a religious standpoint.

Says who? You? Israel is a democracy and any citizen whether they are an orthodox Jew, Muslim, Christian, whatever, has the right to build the country as they see fit -- within the constitution of course.  By the way, the same goes for the USA and other democracies. Also, your statement can be turned around and someone can say "As far as religious Muslims are concerned, they don’t have any business rebuilding Palestine from a religious standpoint." -- let me guess, that doesn't sit well with you?

As for Arabs, they lived in relative peace with Jewish people in the Middle East for centuries.

Depends on your definition of "relative". Let's explore --

In 622 the Jews of Medina (now part of Saudi Arabia) refused to convert and therefore were expelled or murdered by none other than Muhammad himself-- by the way, think Saudi Arabia would restore their ancestral land since Jews had lived their for hundreds of years? NO! Of course not. Easy to be hypocritical -- although I will give Saudi Arabia credit for refusing to sever ties with Israel, which is what Hamas was hoping for.

In 627, again Muhammad himself and his followers destroyed the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza killing around 900 men (some say it was much higher), and divided the surviving Jewish women and children amongst themselves as slaves. Peaceful yet?

"Peaceful" coexistence between Jews and Muslims involved the subordination and degradation of Jews. For example, Jews had to pay an extra tax, and on pain of death they were forbidden to criticize the Koran and Islam in any way shape or form -- this included if what most people would argue today as "fair criticism". Also, if a Muslim converted to Judiasm, the person who converted and anyone associated with them would be murdered.  Oh, and if a Jew touched a Muslim woman, that Jew could likewise be murdered -- although a Muslim man could (with force if needed) take a non­-Muslim as a wife.

Jews did the best they can, often just being the typical scapegoats. For instance, on December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada in Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. What today is known as the 1066 Granada Massacre was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as Jews obtaining political power.

There are so many other instances that I'm almost at a loss as to where to continue. Thousands were murdered in the city of Fez alone during in 1465, thousands murdered in Algiers in the 1800s, Jews were murdered or forced to convert in Yemen for hundreds of years -- many kept their faith secretly and if discovered the entire family (men, women, children) butchered.

More recently, some thousands of Jews were killed in anti-Jewish rioting in the 1940s in Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria, and Yemen.

You could make the argument that Jews were treated far better in Muslim countries hundreds of years ago then there were treated in Europe. You could also make the argument that there was "relative peace", but the facts show that many many thousands were massacred over the years all by Muslims.

My sources? Wikipedia, as well as scholarly books such as this --

https://www.amazon.com/Jews-Islam-Princeton-Paperbacks/dp/0691008078

So you can’t say Arabs or Muslims have a religious duty to eliminate Jews, cause they had plenty of time to do that and they never did.

They absolutely did see it as a "religious duty" and in many instances they absolutely eliminated the Jews entirely! I certainly never said that all Muslims see it as a religious duty to kill/murder/convert Jews, Christians, etc. But for Hamas, it is undeniably a religious duty -- Hamas itself would agree since it's part of their charter --

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

The Movement's program is Islam. From it, it draws its ideas, ways of thinking and understanding of the universe, life and man.

Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.

That's right out of their charter, so to try to pretend Hamas is political and not religious is laughable.

Hamas and the people in Gaza are like a beast locked in a cage. You can’t complain when you stick your hand into the cage and it bites you. Treat them like humans and maybe they will behave better.

Nice hyperbole. Let me ask you when was the last time you were in in the Middle East? Granted, it's been years since I was there last, but I remember talking to people, both young and old, at the West Bank and there sure was hope for peace. I can't say they loved Israel, nor did Israelis love them, but it was a hopeful time on both sides. Also, are you trying to defend Hamas? They are universally acknowledged as terrorists that have murdered men, women, children. 

The problem with this conflict is that Israel owns like 90% of the reporting on it. It’s pretty obvious that an ethnic cleansing is taking place. Is it a religious war? Only in the sense that the evangelical Christians that control US Middle East policy want Israel to dominate the region because they think it will speed up the second coming of Jesus.

The largest Middle East reporting is by Al Jazeera, which is funded by Qatar, they have offices in Israel. Unlike most countries in the Middle East, Israel has freedom of the press. So any newspaper can report from there, whether pro-Israel or anti-Israel. To say "Israel owns like 90% of the reporting on it" is completely unfounded. I will grant you that there is no doubt that Evangelical Christians are a big influence in Middle East policy. However, to again say something unfounded such as that they "control policy" is asinine. Do you consider Joe Biden an evangelical Christian? Last I checked he is still the Commander in Chief of the armed forces and his policy (which I think has overall been solid) certainly does not align with what right-winging people want.

As far as orthodox Jews are concerned, they don’t have any business rebuilding Israel from a religious standpoint.
 

Your counter argument did not address the supposed “religious entitlement” that Israel has. What you argued for is a secular and political reason for existence. If you spend some time learning what it says in the Torah, you’ll see that religious Jews dutifully accept their exile from Israel by God’s command. If you don’t want to hear this from me, hear it from religious Jews themselves in these two videos.

 

 

As for Arabs, they lived in relative peace with Jewish people in the Middle East for centuries.

I agree that Jewish people were marginalized and even killed throughout history, especially in Europe. Yes they were also sometimes killed in the Middle East. But this was not the norm. If it was, there would be have been no Jewish communities in the Middle East remaining to return to Israel.

Historically, they went to Middle Eastern countries because they enjoyed rights and safety. There are literally books written about this topic.

This guy she is interviewing is Muslim, but the authors he is referencing are non-Muslim historians and they attest to the peace:

Here are the book he referenced:
-Muhammed: Prophet of Peace amid the Clash of Empire, by Juan Coles
-A History of Bombing, by Sven Lindqvist
-Are Muslims Distinctive? A Look at the Evidence, by Steven Fish
-Avicenna, by Dr. Lenn E Goodman. Goodman is a Jewish scholar that celebrates the works of Avicenna (AKA Ibn Sina), so there has to be some common ground between Muslims and Jews.

He also referenced Emir Abdelkader El Djazairi as a historical figure venerated by the French Legion  (Westerners) and the Red Cross (Western organization) for humane treatment of captives.
Glenn Goodman


You mentioned Jews living under Muslim rule as being some sort of subjugation. It’s easy to view it this way when you are doing so with the intention of finding wrong. First point is that everyone has to pay taxes for participating in civilization. So if you live in a Muslim country, yes you still have to pay taxes. And the Muslim people also pay taxes. They just give their taxes a religious spin and the other people are paying it for secular reasons since they don’t believe in the same religion.

Second point is that you mentioned Jewish people criticized the Muslim religion they would be punished. Maybe so, but religious folk tend to have respect for eachother, unlike childish people today. Jewish and Muslim people have more in common than they differ when it comes to religion, so I find it difficult to imagine these people hurling insults at each other. Also, free speech is a relatively new thing in history regardless of religion or country… and all the places that supposedly promote free speech over the past century are more recently deciding that they want to go back to restricting speech.

 

I personally live in an area where there are many Palestinian people and they are very polite and welcoming people. I have talked with them on a friendly level and none of them have any issues with Jewish people. What they all complain about it how their families were forced out of their homelands of many generations by Zionists. Here’s a good example:

You said Hamas has a duty to eliminate Israel. That is true. That does not equate to harming people. What they mean is the elimination of the the oppressive government. Personally I do not see how that would happen without a fight, but all I can say is that if innocent people are harmed that is always a bad thing.




Some more history on the conflict:

Regarding the news in Israel - it is true that every mainstream network is reporting on the conflict. But the only source of the info they are reporting is the Israeli authorities. The Israeli authorities are not allowing independent investigations to take place. Some reporters have actually been killed, and based on some of the videos I have seen of how IDF soldiers are treating reporters, I would not be surprised if some of these deaths could have been avoided. So we are only hearing info that has been approved for reporting by the Israeli authorities. That’s a problem they have skin in the game, so you can expect the reporting to be biased.

 

 

One of the big problems today is that after 9/11, there was a very strong propaganda campaign to demonize Muslims. As a result, the average person has no empathy for Muslim people, they are now viewed subhuman. The media has now taken a turn since the Middle East “War on Terror” has ended and they are trying to re-humanize Muslims. Unfortunately, they did such a good job with the demonization, that people are pretty much convinced for life that these are evil people.

 

In closing, I don’t really know what happened in Israel. I know they reported that Hamas did something horrific, but they also claimed Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and used that as justification to kill at least a million people according to some estimates. And it turns out WMDs was a lie.

If Hamas harmed innocent people then I condemn that. But that’s no excuse to level an entire city.

 

[avatar! | 1,819]

11 hours ago, phart010 said:

If Hamas harmed innocent people then I condemn that. But that’s no excuse to level an entire city.

That one line right there above just spokes volumes about your viewpoint -- Can you not accept facts? If Hamas harmed innocent people -- not even Hamas denies that they kill women and children! Every single news network across the world knows that on Oct 7th Hamas attacked Israel and killed over 1400 innocent people, including babies, children, and women. As well as kidnapping over 200 civilians of all nationalities. But, you still say "If" implying you refuse to accept facts. The Hamas terrorists themselves even had bodycams because for them, this is sport -- the killing of Jews and anyone not aligned with their ideology --

https://www.icct.nl/publication/interview-devorah-margolin-hamas

Any illusions surrounding Hamas’s legitimacy or possible moderation have been shattered. This is also true for Hamas itself. There is no putting the “genie back in the bottle”, there is no going back. Hamas has made it extremely clear that the goals outlined in its charter, specifically the complete destruction of Israel, remain its ideology. 

Suffice to say, there's almost nothing you said I agree with. In fact, I would say nearly everything you said is either demonstrably false, or at most, could easily be argued against. Just one example --

Second point is that you mentioned Jewish people criticized the Muslim religion they would be punished. Maybe so, but religious folk tend to have respect for eachother, unlike childish people today.

First,  "childish people today" -- it's not even clear what you're trying to say. You ignored the fact that over centuries Muslims butchered men, women, and children. They would destroy whole communities whether the community was Jewish, Christian, or some other religions.  You can not just wave your hand and magically say "maybe so" as if that makes it right! I can bounce that right back at you and say "you think Israel is being too harsh with collective punishment? well maybe so, but you know childish people today" -- see, that means nothing.

And the Muslim people also pay taxes. They just give their taxes a religious spin and the other people are paying it for secular reasons since they don’t believe in the same religion.

What? Yes, Muslims pay tax in a Muslim country. HOWEVER you completely ignore my point which is that Jews had to pay an extra tax... EXTRA tax not imposed on Muslims. It is certainly preferable to pay an extra tax rather than being killed, unfortunately the latter was all too common --

One of the big problems today is that after 9/11, there was a very strong propaganda campaign to demonize Muslims. As a result, the average person has no empathy for Muslim people, they are now viewed subhuman.

Perhaps the one thing I agree with you is that too many people demonize Muslims. However, you are incorrect in saying that there is "no empathy" --

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/07/26/how-the-u-s-general-public-views-muslims-and-islam/

Still, the uptick in positive feelings toward Muslims is notable, especially because other questions in different Pew Research Center surveys also suggest that the public’s view of Muslims has improved in recent years.

For example, in December 2016, 49% of Americans said Islam is not more likely than other religions to encourage violence among its followers, while 41% said it is more likely to encourage violence. The share who associate Islam with violence has declined 9 percentage points – from 50% – since September 2014

The big uptick is in antisemitism. Jews are 2% of the population of the USA but experience 60% of religious hate crimes. 

In closing, I don’t really know what happened in Israel. I know they reported that Hamas did something horrific, but they also claimed Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and used that as justification to kill at least a million people according to some estimates. And it turns out WMDs was a lie.

I suggest you try reading any news channel that is not Hamas. You ignore facts that Hamas murdered innocent men, women, children, then you try to somehow make Israel responsible for the Gulf War -- that is quite honestly an antisemitic lie. Yes, antisemitic, you're just blaming the Jews. It's well known that the Gulf War which brought Saddam Hussein down was a direct result of the terror attacks on 9/11

[phart010 | 1,707]

On 11/14/2023 at 10:37 AM, avatar! said:

That one line right there above just spokes volumes about your viewpoint -- Can you not accept facts? If Hamas harmed innocent people -- not even Hamas denies that they kill women and children! Every single news network across the world knows that on Oct 7th Hamas attacked Israel and killed over 1400 innocent people, including babies, children, and women. As well as kidnapping over 200 civilians of all nationalities. But, you still say "If" implying you refuse to accept facts. The Hamas terrorists themselves even had bodycams because for them, this is sport -- the killing of Jews and anyone not aligned with their ideology --

https://www.icct.nl/publication/interview-devorah-margolin-hamas

Any illusions surrounding Hamas’s legitimacy or possible moderation have been shattered. This is also true for Hamas itself. There is no putting the “genie back in the bottle”, there is no going back. Hamas has made it extremely clear that the goals outlined in its charter, specifically the complete destruction of Israel, remain its ideology. 

Suffice to say, there's almost nothing you said I agree with. In fact, I would say nearly everything you said is either demonstrably false, or at most, could easily be argued against. Just one example --

Second point is that you mentioned Jewish people criticized the Muslim religion they would be punished. Maybe so, but religious folk tend to have respect for eachother, unlike childish people today.

First,  "childish people today" -- it's not even clear what you're trying to say. You ignored the fact that over centuries Muslims butchered men, women, and children. They would destroy whole communities whether the community was Jewish, Christian, or some other religions.  You can not just wave your hand and magically say "maybe so" as if that makes it right! I can bounce that right back at you and say "you think Israel is being too harsh with collective punishment? well maybe so, but you know childish people today" -- see, that means nothing.

And the Muslim people also pay taxes. They just give their taxes a religious spin and the other people are paying it for secular reasons since they don’t believe in the same religion.

What? Yes, Muslims pay tax in a Muslim country. HOWEVER you completely ignore my point which is that Jews had to pay an extra tax... EXTRA tax not imposed on Muslims. It is certainly preferable to pay an extra tax rather than being killed, unfortunately the latter was all too common --

One of the big problems today is that after 9/11, there was a very strong propaganda campaign to demonize Muslims. As a result, the average person has no empathy for Muslim people, they are now viewed subhuman.

Perhaps the one thing I agree with you is that too many people demonize Muslims. However, you are incorrect in saying that there is "no empathy" --

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/07/26/how-the-u-s-general-public-views-muslims-and-islam/

Still, the uptick in positive feelings toward Muslims is notable, especially because other questions in different Pew Research Center surveys also suggest that the public’s view of Muslims has improved in recent years.

For example, in December 2016, 49% of Americans said Islam is not more likely than other religions to encourage violence among its followers, while 41% said it is more likely to encourage violence. The share who associate Islam with violence has declined 9 percentage points – from 50% – since September 2014

The big uptick is in antisemitism. Jews are 2% of the population of the USA but experience 60% of religious hate crimes. 

In closing, I don’t really know what happened in Israel. I know they reported that Hamas did something horrific, but they also claimed Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and used that as justification to kill at least a million people according to some estimates. And it turns out WMDs was a lie.

I suggest you try reading any news channel that is not Hamas. You ignore facts that Hamas murdered innocent men, women, children, then you try to somehow make Israel responsible for the Gulf War -- that is quite honestly an antisemitic lie. Yes, antisemitic, you're just blaming the Jews. It's well known that the Gulf War which brought Saddam Hussein down was a direct result of the terror attacks on 9/11

The first two videos you posted are exactly the reason that I have said “if”. First video showed Hamas militants going around a residential area shooting at nothing. I didn’t see a single human target in the video. But the commentary says they were killing people.  Second video claims babies were killed, and to be honest if babies were killed then I don’t want to see the video. But many people that are willing to stomach viewing this type of horrific content have said they are still waiting to see evidence of the dead babies. So all we really have are testimonies and affadavits.. kind like the people that claimed election fraud in the 2020 presidential election.

All I can say is that I have not seen anything with my own two eyes besides a ton of dead Palestinians.

 

Regarding Muslims killing Christians and Jewish communities in the Middle East… we can go back and forth on this non stop but the facts are that Muslim people governed the Middle East for centuries. Their religion explicitly says they can’t compel people to their religion and they can’t harm a people unless they are aggressors. And in these lands they governed, there are communities of Christians and Jews that have lived until today.
There are millions of Coptic Christians in Egypt today whose community dates back to the Roman Empire. Why do they still exist?

There are Assyrian Christian communities that still speak Aramaic, the native language of Jesus living in Syria and Iraq today… why do they still exist? 

All the Jewish communities that left the Middle Eastern countries to migrate to Israel in 1948… why were they still alive?? 

These are just a few examples. If the Muslim people are these violent barbarians that you want them to be, they would have wiped these communities out centuries ago.

The Jewish Chronicle states that Muslims saved the Jews:
https://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/so-what-did-the-muslims-do-for-the-jews-1.33597

You should check your knowledge on this whole “dhimmi” concept. It sounds like your information is from post 9/11 hate websites. A dhimmi is just a tax paying member of society living in a Muslim country. Just like green card holders are tax paying members of society in America that are not Americans. Muslim people have to pay an annual wealth tax called zakat. Zakat funds social services, primarily helping poor people. This is a religious obligation on them. They also have mandatory military service as a religious obligation.

Since “dhimmis” are not Muslim, they can’t be asked to pay a zakat tax as a religious obligation. So they give the tax a different name. Also, paying the dhimmi tax guaranteed a waiver from military service. 

Dhimmi people found the tax to be a good value, otherwise they would have left.

From Wikipedia:

Similarly, Thomas Arnold states that jizya was "too moderate" to constitute a burden, "seeing that it released them from the compulsory military service that was incumbent on their Muslim fellow subjects." He further adds that converts escaping taxation would have to pay the legal alms, zakat, that is annually levied on most kinds of movable and immovable property.

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by phart010

[avatar! | 1,819]

13 minutes ago, phart010 said:

The first two videos you posted are exactly the reason that I have said “if”. First video showed Hamas militants going around a residential area shooting at nothing. I didn’t see a single human target in the video. But the commentary says they were killing people.  Second video claims babies were killed, and to be honest if babies were killed then I don’t want to see the video. But many people that are willing to stomach viewing this type of horrific content have said they are still waiting to see evidence of the dead babies. So all we really have are testimonies and affadavits.. kind like the people that claimed election fraud in the 2020 presidential election.

All I can say is that I have not seen anything with my own two eyes besides a ton of dead Palestinians.

That's such a nonsensical argument --

All I can say is that I have not seen anything with my own two eyes besides a ton of dead Palestinians.

Well, I have not seen any dead Palestinians with my own two eyes. Almost no one in the USA or Europe has seen any dead Palestinians. Gee, how do we know a war is going on? Your argument is absurd, literally, it's the definition of reductio ad absurdum. You're just spouting conspiracy theories now with ZERO evidence. No point in even talking with you. Seriously, I don't see any point. Fortunately most people, whether they believe what Israel is doing is wrong/right, know that the evidence for Hamas massacre is overwhelming, to the point where the only people that would deny it are antimsemites. 

 

[phart010 | 1,707]

3 hours ago, avatar! said:

 

I suggest you try reading any news channel that is not Hamas. You ignore facts that Hamas murdered innocent men, women, children, then you try to somehow make Israel responsible for the Gulf War -- that is quite honestly an antisemitic lie. Yes, antisemitic, you're just blaming the Jews. It's well known that the Gulf War which brought Saddam Hussein down was a direct result of the terror attacks on 9/11

I think you have confused the Gulf War with the War on Terror. The gulf War was in the early 90s so could not haven post 9/11. The War on terror was a war based on false premises that destroyed Iraq and Afghanistan in cold blood. Supposedly this war was in response to Al-Qaedas destroying the twin towers. Yet there was no Al-Qaeda present in Iraq. Al-Qaeda was in Saudi Arabia and an autonomous region between Pakistan and Afghanistan 

There were two main reasons for the War on Terror. 
1. Saddam Hussein threatens to sell Iraqi oil for Euros. This would have threatened to topple the status quo of the US dollar being the exclusive currency for trading oil. Because of this, US made an example out of Iraq to any other countries that would dare to trade oil for anything besides US dollars.

2. Dick Cheney the warmonger. Dick Cheney was simultaneously Bush’s Vice President and the CEO of Halliburton. This was a complete conflict of interest and he used his position to award Halliburton all of the military, construction and security contracts to Halliburton on a “no-bid” basis. This means Halliburton did not have to compete with other military contractors, they were simply awarded all of the contracts regardless of their cost. This made Dick Cheney and all the military industrial complex investors extremely wealthy. This man was an absolute war criminal