Game Debate #15: Xenogears

[Reed Rothchild | 10,319]

 

[Reed Rothchild | 10,319]

@RH's pick

[Gloves | 12,995]

I still don't know exactly what it was about the game that didn't draw me in. I played for a good 10-15 hours, and I liked the characters and the battle system, but I dunno... maybe I just couldn't get invested in the story. 

[RH | 5,540]

Immediate 10, flaws and all. It's definitely not a truly "perfect" game considering they had to rush through development of the second disc, but since 75% of what makes a good RPG, to me, is the exploration and game play mechanic, this one was about as good as it got.  Two types of combat plus just enough gear customization to not be overwhelming.

I really enjoyed the story too, even though there were times when I had to read through 45 minutes of text walls.  That was tough as a kid because I was playing this game while I was in High School and I had a bed time.  Never failed. 10 minutes before lights-out, I'd hit a text cut scene and I knew that I was screwed.  I left my PS1 on over night more than I did my NES back in the old day before save files.

Regardless, if you like RPGs at all and have never played this game, it's definitely at the top of my "essential" pile.

Thanks @Reed Rothchild taking my selection!

Edited September 17, 2020 by RH

[RH | 5,540]

2 minutes ago, Gloves said:

I still don't know exactly what it was about the game that didn't draw me in. I played for a good 10-15 hours, and I liked the characters and the battle system, but I dunno... maybe I just couldn't get invested in the story. 

[tidaldreams | 654]

This game is basically Evangelion in video game form.

[Hammerfestus | 4,291]

I had pretty much the same experience as Gloves.  I put a solid chunk of time in and it never really grabbed me like it seemed it should have.  Just kind of stopped playing it.  

[DefaultGen | 6,064]

I think I pirated this on PSP back in the day solely because the ISO size was super small and memory sticks were expensive. No memory of it though. Meh, RPGs.

[TDIRunner | 3,086]

43 minutes ago, RH said:

 

I really enjoyed the story too, even though there were times when I had to read through 45 minutes of text walls.  That was tough as a kid because I was playing this game while I was in High School and I had a bed time.  Never failed. 10 minutes before lights-out, I'd hit a text cut scene and I knew that I was screwed.  I left my PS1 on over night more than I did my NES back in the old day before save files.

 

I know exactly what you mean.  I had the same issue with MGS cut scenes (any of them, not just MGS1).  A super long cut scene would always start up right before you were ready to turn it off.  Probably one of the best things to come out of the current generation of gaming is the ability to hit the home button and suspend any game at any time.  

Also, I haven't played this game...

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

It was a favorite of mine, back in its day.

Only played through it all the way once, though, due to the length.

And then found Xenosaga to be a huge letdown.

[Nintegageo | 586]

Among the best PS1 RPGs, which is a serious compliment. I voted 9 due to the mentioned deadline cuts in the 2nd CD however what an amazing game.

[AstralSoul | 531]

Absolutely amazing game. I only gave it a 9 instead of a 10 because it felt a little slow the first time I tried it and took a few attempts for it to really click but once it did, it became one of the best RPGs ever.

[Sumez | 3,296]

One of those myriad of elusive Squaresoft titles from the 90s that you had to import to have a chance at trying, so that probably added a sense of mystique that really drew me to it back in the days. I also really enjoyed the 2D characters in 3D space aesthetic at the time.

It's a deeply fascinating game with an overwhelming lore, and when I first played it it probably placed itself somewhere in my top 5 RPGs of all time, but as time has moved on, a lot of the things that carry the story are things that I've grown more and more annoyed with in video games. Most notably when story elements are obscured unnecessarily in the service of making the story more mysterious than it needs. Some of the plot is mere nonsense, but it has elements that still draws me to it.

At the end of the day, the elephant in the room is the latter "half"(?) of the game that's blatantly missing, and of course that's going to drag the score down.
At least it's not like FF15 where they'd just pretend that they were releasing a full game - Xenogears pretty much admits that story beats are missing, with the way it inserts a character to sum up everything that happens in those moments that you don't actually get to see. It's almost absurd to a degree that I feel like everyone needs to experience it.

[Reed Rothchild | 10,319]

I'm ashamed to say I can't give it a score.  I only played through a part of it before it got stuck in hiatus-limbo.  I will be rectifying that in 2021 or 2022.  In fact, it is partially the impetus for a big thread I plan on creating in the future.

[RH | 5,540]

2 hours ago, DefaultGen said:

I think I pirated this on PSP back in the day solely because the ISO size was super small and memory sticks were expensive. No memory of it though. Meh, RPGs.

I think you mean Vagrant Story. That one was a late in life title and I think the ISO clocks in under 200MB. I had asked about in once and, supposedly, the textures were minimal and since they had perfected their ability to 3D model on the PS1, they saved a lot of space not needing so many images and all of the FMVs were actual on system rendered scenes.

I don't know the size of Xenogears but it's two discs, so if likely around 800-900MB.

[DoctorEncore | 3,696]

Great game from the glory days of JRPGs. Unique battle system with an interesting story that wades deeply into usually taboo subjects such as religion, class warfare, and existentialism.

[Jicsan | 623]

On 9/17/2020 at 4:40 PM, Reed Rothchild said:

I'm ashamed to say I can't give it a score.  I only played through a part of it before it got stuck in hiatus-limbo.

Same here.  I only ever got like an hour into it, then never went back to it.  That the news got to me so early on that it was 'unfinished' or whatever killed my motivation.  I'll try to get to it again eventually.

[RH | 5,540]

8 minutes ago, Jicsan said:

Same here.  I only ever got like an hour into it, then never went back to it.  That the news got to me so early on that it was 'unfinished' or whatever killed my motivation.  I'll try to get to it again eventually.

It's honestly worth it.  At least play until you hit the text walls, and then find a story synopsis and finish reading the "Cliff Notes" of the game.

The game play really is solid. I'm guessing if you only played an hour or so, you never got to your gear, or even the ship Yggdrasil (which, yes, I did have to Google how to spell.)  Anyway, when you get your ship, that's when things really open up and the game becomes the game that it was meant to be.  There's a lot to this adventure, and that's why I think it's worth giving an honest try.  But, if my memory serves me correctly, it takes about 3-4 hours before you get a really good picture of what this game has to offer.  Even later (maybe 10 hours into the game) a card-based mini-game opens up.  I don't remember the mechanics but as a kid, I seem to recall I actually liked this one and I tend to be annoyed by that stuff when it's required for good upgrades/weapons/armor/etc.

Edited September 21, 2020 by RH

[wongojack | 460]

I am currently playing this game.  I'm not really what you would call a JRPG fan.  I've started a few more than I've finished, but never finished one as a kid or young adult.  I just say that to give context that I don't come with a whole bunch of nostalgia etc.

I have thoughts, but I'm holding my vote until I actually finish.  I actually have a question, and I thought this would be the best thread to ask it.  I think @RH or @Renmauzo may know off the top of their heads (saw you both in the backlog thread too).

I just defeated a specific boss who connects himself to an energy source to replenish.  I'm not going to use his name here to avoid spoilers.  Anyway, it had been so long since I was actually challenged in a "Gear Fight" that this was the first time I'd used any deathblow requiring Attack Power 2 or above.  It was a good fight - the game needed one, and it delivered.  However, I basically won because an infinite attack mode (aka Hyper Mode) was activated.  This was the first time I'd seen such a mode and really didn't have any idea where it came from or how I achieved it.  The gear got two large attacks in quick succession which basically broke the whole thing open.

I've since read that you can see the chances for activating Hyper Mode on screen, but I can't say I remember seeing that at all.  Can you explain how this works?  Do I get my attack level to 3 and then simply wait for this mode to activate by itself?

[Renmauzo | 1,356]

6 hours ago, wongojack said:

I am currently playing this game.  I'm not really what you would call a JRPG fan.  I've started a few more than I've finished, but never finished one as a kid or young adult.  I just say that to give context that I don't come with a whole bunch of nostalgia etc.

I have thoughts, but I'm holding my vote until I actually finish.  I actually have a question, and I thought this would be the best thread to ask it.  I think @RH or @Renmauzo may know off the top of their heads (saw you both in the backlog thread too).

I just defeated a specific boss who connects himself to an energy source to replenish.  I'm not going to use his name here to avoid spoilers.  Anyway, it had been so long since I was actually challenged in a "Gear Fight" that this was the first time I'd used any deathblow requiring Attack Power 2 or above.  It was a good fight - the game needed one, and it delivered.  However, I basically won because an infinite attack mode (aka Hyper Mode) was activated.  This was the first time I'd seen such a mode and really didn't have any idea where it came from or how I achieved it.  The gear got two large attacks in quick succession which basically broke the whole thing open.

I've since read that you can see the chances for activating Hyper Mode on screen, but I can't say I remember seeing that at all.  Can you explain how this works?  Do I get my attack level to 3 and then simply wait for this mode to activate by itself?

Hi wongojack, rather than me flub trying to write it out, here's a written explanation (full credit to ForteGSOmega) with the pre-requisites for hyper - or 'infinity' - mode:

Hyper Mode Points (HMP):
You can accumulate HMP by attacking. Each DeathBlow and no other attack 
increases the HMP by a certain amount:

  DeathBlow    | TT | TS | TX | ST | SS | SX | XT | XS | XX |
  -------------|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
  HMP increase |  1 |  1 |  2 |  2 |  2 |  4 |  3 |  3 |  6 |

HMP are reset to 0 when you enter Hyper Mode or end the battle.

To enter Hyper Mode, you must be at Attack Level three and then perform an 
action that does not decrease the Attack Level such as Attack without using
a DeathBlow, Item, Ether Machine, Booster, Special Options, Charge or even
Escape (assuming it'll fail). 
Right before that character gets his turn again, the game performs a check 
to see if that Gear can get into Hyper Mode:

  If ([0..99] < HyperMode%) raise Attack Level to 4 (Infinity)

There is a place in the game - side story location - that you can find a blurb on Infinity mode, but let me know if you'd like me to tell you; I certainly don't want to spoil anything for you I achieved this mode by accident the first time when I was trying to keep a Deathblow 'in the chamber' so to speak, and later found this information while exploring.

[Renmauzo | 1,356]

Thank you RH, and thank you Reed...I didn't even realize we could submit names for game debates...this would have been the first thing I did on the site, lol.

I've mentioned it several times before, but this is my favorite game of all time, and I play through it every couple of years. No piece of media - let alone game - changed my perspective on life, death, existence, religion, what it means to be human than this game. Seen all the way through and understood, the story is a masterclass and I'm confident that if the medium would have been book rather than game, this would be considered a modern classic to a broader audience.

I bought and played this game as I was finishing up high school. I'd gotten a feeling about it from a single screenshot in an 'upcoming RPGs' article in EGM, kept it in the back of my mind, and saw it in the on a shelf near the threshold of a Compucentre store on my way home from part-time work some time later. While that job money was to help the household, I lucked out and some family friends were going away for a week and needed someone to stay at their place to look after their kids, so that's how I made the money to get the game.

I was hooked from jump, invested in the mystery with more questions coming every time one was answered. I come from a very religious family, but always have always been intent on asking my own questions and seeking answers, and this game made me think about things in ways I'd wanted to consider for the sake of varying my considerations and perspectives. Because of Xenogears, I picked up 'Der Wille Zur Macht' from Nietzsche, then started looking into the works of Jung, Dostoevsky, Clarke, Asimov, and more, and of course, Gnosticism. I was always interested in personality charting as well because I remember deciding - right or wrong - in my teens that there seem to be a finite number of personalities in the world, and I found that the characters in this game really nailed this.

As time went on, a video game store close to my college ended up getting new copies of the game in greatest hits format, so anytime I had some extra money from work - with no pre-determined plans for it - I'd buy another copy. If the subject of games ever came up with friends and classmates, I'd mention Xenogears, and if they seemed truly interested, I'd give them a copy in the hopes they would get something out of the game the way I did. Many people set up displays for Zelda, Mario, Pokémon, etc., but I have a display set up for Xenogears since it's such an important game to me. Resonant Arc did a wonderful multi-part narrative, spiritual and philosophical breakdown a couple of years ago that really speaks to how special this game is.  

With Nintendo now wholly owning Monolith Soft and their relationship with SE seeming amicable, I hope that a 2D-3D remake may someday happen with Takahashi involved. That said, in the - likely - event it never happens, I still love the aesthetic of this game; no nostalgia goggles, it just looks great to me with the combo of 2D and 3D, and the sprite work for the portraits. And of course, the music; this game and Chrono Trigger cemented Mitsuda as my favorite composer, leading me to get the orchestrated works cd signed by him (something I've never cared about before or since, getting things signed that is).  

In the end, if I could give this game an 11 here, I would. It is a flawed masterpiece and a testament to the idea that games can do and be more than relegated to 'silly kids stuff'. Sorry for the book here, I guess it's easy to see that I feel some kind of way about this game, lol.

[Kguillemette | 1,747]

One of my bucket list games. I tend to love PS1 era rpgs, no reason to think I won't like this one.

[wongojack | 460]

5 hours ago, Renmauzo said:

Thank you RH, and thank you Reed...I didn't even realize we could submit names for game debates...this would have been the first thing I did on the site, lol.

I've mentioned it several times before, but this is my favorite game of all time, and I play through it every couple of years. No piece of media - let alone game - changed my perspective on life, death, existence, religion, what it means to be human than this game. Seen all the way through and understood, the story is a masterclass and I'm confident that if the medium would have been book rather than game, this would be considered a modern classic to a broader audience.

I bought and played this game as I was finishing up high school. I'd gotten a feeling about it from a single screenshot in an 'upcoming RPGs' article in EGM, kept it in the back of my mind, and saw it in the on a shelf near the threshold of a Compucentre store on my way home from part-time work some time later. While that job money was to help the household, I lucked out and some family friends were going away for a week and needed someone to stay at their place to look after their kids, so that's how I made the money to get the game.

I was hooked from jump, invested in the mystery with more questions coming every time one was answered. I come from a very religious family, but always have always been intent on asking my own questions and seeking answers, and this game made me think about things in ways I'd wanted to consider for the sake of varying my considerations and perspectives. Because of Xenogears, I picked up 'Der Wille Zur Macht' from Nietzsche, then started looking into the works of Jung, Dostoevsky, Clarke, Asimov, and more, and of course, Gnosticism. I was always interested in personality charting as well because I remember deciding - right or wrong - in my teens that there seem to be a finite number of personalities in the world, and I found that the characters in this game really nailed this.

As time went on, a video game store close to my college ended up getting new copies of the game in greatest hits format, so anytime I had some extra money from work - with no pre-determined plans for it - I'd buy another copy. If the subject of games ever came up with friends and classmates, I'd mention Xenogears, and if they seemed truly interested, I'd give them a copy in the hopes they would get something out of the game the way I did. Many people set up displays for Zelda, Mario, Pokémon, etc., but I have a display set up for Xenogears since it's such an important game to me. Resonant Arc did a wonderful multi-part narrative, spiritual and philosophical breakdown a couple of years ago that really speaks to how special this game is.  

With Nintendo now wholly owning Monolith Soft and their relationship with SE seeming amicable, I hope that a 2D-3D remake may someday happen with Takahashi involved. That said, in the - likely - event it never happens, I still love the aesthetic of this game; no nostalgia goggles, it just looks great to me with the combo of 2D and 3D, and the sprite work for the portraits. And of course, the music; this game and Chrono Trigger cemented Mitsuda as my favorite composer, leading me to get the orchestrated works cd signed by him (something I've never cared about before or since, getting things signed that is).  

In the end, if I could give this game an 11 here, I would. It is a flawed masterpiece and a testament to the idea that games can do and be more than relegated to 'silly kids stuff'. Sorry for the book here, I guess it's easy to see that I feel some kind of way about this game, lol.

I kinda like your memory and experience of the game better than the game itself!

[CMR | 568]

Somehow I missed this thread.  Anyway, 9/10.  Would have been a perfect 10 if not for the rushed second disc. 

[wongojack | 460]

Well, this will feel like a punch to the heart for some, but I gave it a 4 out of 10.  You can read my thoughts in this year's backlog thread here:  

 

Edited May 6 by wongojack