General Current Events/Political Discussion

[CodysGameRoom | 2,009]

John Oliver - Police

I know this will be discredited as liberal AF and keep in mind, its entertainment, but there is some good information here, specifically regarding "defunding police".

[Silent Hill | 276]

2 hours ago, cartman said:

2 hours ago, MrWunderful said:

Did you read his post? He gave you 5 reasons why police department should be “defunded” from the standpoint that a cop with a gun doesnt need to go to tge call because a homeless guy is sleeping in a stoop. 
 

maybe if a PD has a large homeless issue, they hire 3-4 homless advocates that have different training, as opposed to a cop with a gun. 
 

over years police have had huge increases in what they have to take care of. That is the idea of “defunding” the police, spread their work around. 
 

Just be prepared for right wing media to scream for 5 months about how sleepy joe wantS to fire all the cops so bad brown transgendered people can steal Little Sally’s sunday school books!

Surely the issue isn't that a cop bears a gun on him? Every cop over here bears a gun aswell as part of the attire along with handcuffs and whatever else as do most police forces in the world. 

The only potential wrench into this idea is that the outcome of calls coming into police are not necessarily the expected one. For example, a call may come in regarding a homeless (or group) person sleeping in a stoop. What happens if an unarmed "homeless advocate" is dispatched and upon arrival, the homeless individual has a deadly weapon? It may be an outlier but you've got to account for that. The moment police make assumptions about the outcome of a call based on the nature of the call, is the moment they're potentially vulnerable.

"Hope for the best, prepare for the worst"

 

[NESfiend | 1,520]

10 hours ago, Estil said:

What made you so certain I wouldn't be "for transparency"?  I don't know if I hadn't mentioned it already but YES I WOULD like to see mandatory dash cams (we've had those for decades) and body cams because one of my main concerns is not just to bust officers guilty of police brutality but this would also hopefully ensure falsely accused offers don't get their lives half ruined either.

As for the whole defunding the police thing, who do they think is supposed to enforce the law?  Dude seriously, don't put words into my mouth like that.  

This thread has become too much to keep up with, but I did want to address this because I'm not sure if you are kidding. Calling you out by name was just an acknowledgement you have been ganged up on in the thread. Its also an acknowledgment you have a little better sense of humor than most and can take a joke. Everyone is for transparency with body cams and dash cams. And that begs the question why so many departments still don't use them when cost is minimal. 

As for putting words in your mouth about you hoping biden and left would embrace "defund police" movement, that was an acknowledgement of your intelligence. People in general are finally recognizing problems regarding race. In wake of that victory, immediately the left pushes an idea that would turn off the middle of the road voters. Its one step forward, two steps back if that were to really catch on. Trump took the right to crazy extremes. Why the left sees it as an opportunity to do the same with our party is beyond me (i.e. dem debates were hard to watch). Luckily, biden is a moderate, something both sides badly need a lot more of. 

Edited June 9, 2020 by NESfiend

[Link | 2,820]

7 hours ago, Estil said:

And all of this is supposed to be making a case for defunding the police (which means take money away from the police right?) how?  This sounds more like an argument on why defunding the police is NOT a good idea.

When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Use some of the funds currently going to police resources for social and public services instead. Ok, the last scenario I described is dramatic and maybe scary, but for all the rest, police is a completely inappropriate response and cannot do anything to help in the long run.

[ICrappedMyPants | 302]

I used to live by an exit in Chicago that had a lot of homeless people living under a viaduct in tents. Most of the time they just asked for money. However, there was one guy who would dance in the middle of cars for money. He seemed fine and all until one day I saw him with an aluminum bat and he was yelling at all the cars and then hitting the light post very hard with the bat.  It was definitely an uncomfortable sight. He was around for a little longer and then just gone after years of being at this exit. Situations can change quickly.

Anyway, I do think there needs to be a legitimate nationwide review of complaints against police and that officers with evidence against them should be fired. With that said, I also think that the best way to help the black community is by making it safer. Like mentioned earlier, part of that is stable families, but I also think gangs are a serious issue in some of these areas. Do ai have direct experience? No, but I have read books about people’s experiences living in the projects in Chicago and my wife taught elementary school in Memphis working with black children. Some of the stories she has shared with me are horrifying, including gunfire that left bullets in her room and break ins to step computers.

That’s not to say it’s only a black problem. It’s just one that they seem to have these problems at higher rates. I think that a solid family life and the reduction of the criminal groups would go a long way. I have two cousins who came from a broken home. They both had the opportunity to live with my grandparents. One chose to stay and the other one chose to live with his mother, who was not a good influence. The one who stayed is a successful and upstanding person. The other one is basically white trash who has a criminal record. I don’t think the latter would be in his current situation had he stayed with my grandparents and focused on his education.

[cartman | 195]

16 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

The only potential wrench into this idea is that the outcome of calls coming into police are not necessarily the expected one. For example, a call may come in regarding a homeless (or group) person sleeping in a stoop. What happens if an unarmed "homeless advocate" is dispatched and upon arrival, the homeless individual has a deadly weapon? It may be an outlier but you've got to account for that. The moment police make assumptions about the outcome of a call based on the nature of the call, is the moment they're potentially vulnerable.

"Hope for the best, prepare for the worst"

 

Yeah there's that but i also think there is an argument for having the upper hand. You're supposed to be disadvantaged in firepower and preferrably also outnumbered if possible. It's not meant to be a fair fight that anyone is offered and he can take a shot at beating the police. It's never been hard to kill a cop but the social contract is that you're severly outnumbered and outgunned and will get caught if you do. You're more likely to get a harsher penalty at court etc. If everyone was getting a run for their money it wouldn't be a policeforce it would be a piece of shit. Why would i even call them then if i have about an equal chance to just try my luck against someone who stole/threatened/beat me up and see how it goes?

[Link | 2,820]

32 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

What happens if an unarmed "homeless advocate" is dispatched and upon arrival, the homeless individual has a deadly weapon?

....Police are called to be confrontational, which is more likely to result in a hostile response. 

[Silent Hill | 276]

2 minutes ago, Link said:

....Police are called to be confrontational, which is more likely to result in a hostile response. 

Police are called to resolve issues and I don't think that a confrontation (especially aggressive) is guaranteed in every scenario. Plenty of real-life scenarios of violent people who weren't pushed there because of "police confrontation", they're just evil people choosing violence. Personally, if I were one of these "homeless advocates", for example, I sure as shit wouldn't be responding to calls unarmed, even if the odds of the call not turning violent are in my favor.  

[NESfiend | 1,520]

3 minutes ago, Link said:

....Police are called to be confrontational, which is more likely to result in a hostile response. 

This just flat out isn't true. And its exactly these types of overgeneralizations that are dangerous and lead to things like racism. 

[Silent Hill | 276]

14 minutes ago, ICrappedMyPants said:

I used to live by an exit in Chicago that had a lot of homeless people living under a viaduct in tents. Most of the time they just asked for money. However, there was one guy who would dance in the middle of cars for money. He seemed fine and all until one day I saw him with an aluminum bat and he was yelling at all the cars and then hitting the light post very hard with the bat.  It was definitely an uncomfortable sight. He was around for a little longer and then just gone after years of being at this exit. Situations can change quickly.

Anyway, I do think there needs to be a legitimate nationwide review of complaints against police and that officers with evidence against them should be fired. With that said, I also think that the best way to help the black community is by making it safer. Like mentioned earlier, part of that is stable families, but I also think gangs are a serious issue in some of these areas. Do ai have direct experience? No, but I have read books about people’s experiences living in the projects in Chicago and my wife taught elementary school in Memphis working with black children. Some of the stories she has shared with me are horrifying, including gunfire that left bullets in her room and break ins to step computers.

That’s not to say it’s only a black problem. It’s just one that they seem to have these problems at higher rates. I think that a solid family life and the reduction of the criminal groups would go a long way. I have two cousins who came from a broken home. They both had the opportunity to live with my grandparents. One chose to stay and the other one chose to live with his mother, who was not a good influence. The one who stayed is a successful and upstanding person. The other one is basically white trash who has a criminal record. I don’t think the latter would be in his current situation had he stayed with my grandparents and focused on his education.

Some really good ideas on reforms here that would impact all affected communities at a much greater rate than a few of the other suggestions I've seen going around. 

[Link | 2,820]

Ok. You guys tell me why someone would call the police on a homeless camp in a viaduct. You think they want the police to go and help the people? Lol. They drive past all the time, if they were going to help they wouldn’t need a call. They would do something proactively. More often they coordinate a date to tear down the camp and throw all the peoples belongings in a dumpster.

[ICrappedMyPants | 302]

I thought this was a good article. It talks about Derrick Rose’s take on systematic racism as well as the pitfalls for the black community in Chicago. It also talks about the hypocrisy of systematic racism. Don’t let the Democrats fool you. They are just as guilty of this stuff. I think that I’ll pick up this book. I’d also be interested in any books on how cities have been built and are run in ways that hurt black communities.

[NESfiend | 1,520]

2 minutes ago, Link said:

Ok. You guys tell me why someone would call the police on a homeless camp in a viaduct. You think they want the police to go and help the people? Lol. They drive past all the time, if they were going to help they wouldn’t need a call. They would do something proactively. More often they coordinate a date to tear down the camp and throw all the peoples belongings in a dumpster.

As a former public defender who represented homeless people for years, I can tell you its a good thing they don't generalize the way you do. Most of them knew the local cops well and could and would tell you exactly which ones are really good to them and which ones treat them like crap. A lot of them do a great job with those functions. 

Also, as far as the have a social worker intervene type thinking, those social workers typically prefer a cop accompany them or at least stay nearby outside the room when they do their jobs. Dealing with people with severe mental health issues is a difficult and scary thing. You need both the social worker with the appropriate training and the cop on the other side of the door to intervene if that persons safety is suddenly in jeopardy. 

[ICrappedMyPants | 302]

16 minutes ago, Link said:

Ok. You guys tell me why someone would call the police on a homeless camp in a viaduct. You think they want the police to go and help the people? Lol. They drive past all the time, if they were going to help they wouldn’t need a call. They would do something proactively. More often they coordinate a date to tear down the camp and throw all the peoples belongings in a dumpster.

Get real. I’ve lived two blocks from one of these sites. The homeless almost always only want money when you offer to help them. Hell, I’ve had a guy sell the food I got him when I went with him to Subway to get anything he wanted. The only time I ever considered calling the cops was when the one dude was screaming at cars at the top of his lungs and swinging an aluminum baseball bat at the light post. It was truly a worrying moment. I actually went back a little after that to see if he was still out there and if he’d calmed down. He was gone. I had seen this same guy almost every day for two years. 

Edited June 9, 2020 by ICrappedMyPants

[B.A. | 1,140]

These city council fools in Minneapolis aren't talking about just moving some money from the police to other areas, they actually believe in a police free city.  I grew up in the neighborhood that I got to watch burn down a couple of weeks ago, so I think I have somewhat of a unique perspective.  Let me show you a map. 

 

You can see on the bottom circle the 3rd police precinct which was burned down.  That 2nd circle is where I was pistol whipped as a 14 year old and had my shoes stolen off of my feet.  Now do you think I would have rather had police in the situation or a mental health professional?  Or how about the time when I was away at college and my mom was living alone, she had her window kicked in and her house robbed at gunpoint, in addition they kicked her cat into the wall (and I don't want to see a cat video @Estil, it's not the time).  I don't think she was looking for a social worker to show up.  

I don't disagree that the police have a lot of problems, especially the Minneapolis police. The main issue is the amount of power the union has, which strips away any ability to discipline problem officers. This idea of no police whatsoever however is ludicrous, and that is indeed what is being talked about.   

[Strange | 1,706]

He’s mentally ill. Far worse than the memes peddled by the right and Bernie-or-busters suggest Biden is. Best case scenario, he’s just an insufferable asshole with a lying problem. Neither possibility is fit for office.

Edited June 9, 2020 by The Strangest

[cartman | 195]

6 minutes ago, B.A. said:

These city council fools in Minneapolis aren't talking about just moving some money from the police to other areas, they actually believe in a police free city.  I grew up in the neighborhood that I got to watch burn down a couple of weeks ago, so I think I have somewhat of a unique perspective.  Let me show you a map. 

 

You can see on the bottom circle the 3rd police precinct which was burned down.  That 2nd circle is where I was pistol whipped as a 14 year old and had my shoes stolen off of my feet.  Now do you think I would have rather had police in the situation or a mental health professional?  Or how about the time when I was away at college and my mom was living alone, she had her window kicked in and her house robbed at gunpoint, in addition they kicked her cat into the wall (and I don't want to see a stupid cat video @Estil, it's not the time).  I don't think she was be looking for a social worker to show up.  

I don't disagree that the police have a lot of problems, especially the Minneapolis police. The main issue is the amount of power the union has, which strips away any ability to discipline problem officers. This idea of no police whatsoever however is ludicrous, and that is indeed what is being talked about.   

Mexico has towns where this is a reality and the police is completely corrupt and would've been outgunned even if they weren't. Ofcourse it hasn't lead to any improvement the cartels have just filled up the power vacuum and started extorting and killing at will. Maybe with some tiny population that lives like nomad herders or in the jungle it can work but overall it's just a foolish pipedream.

[Link | 2,820]

21 minutes ago, NESfiend said:

As a former public defender who represented homeless people for years, I can tell you its a good thing they don't generalize the way you do. Most of them knew the local cops well and could and would tell you exactly which ones are really good to them and which ones treat them like crap. A lot of them do a great job with those functions. 

Also, as far as the have a social worker intervene type thinking, those social workers typically prefer a cop accompany them or at least stay nearby outside the room when they do their jobs. Dealing with people with severe mental health issues is a difficult and scary thing. You need both the social worker with the appropriate training and the cop on the other side of the door to intervene if that persons safety is suddenly in jeopardy. 

Cool. Let’s fund more social workers, pay them well, and give them the resources they need to do their jobs well and safely, including police escort if need be. Instead of only police, who are now expected to respond to 15 other kinds of incidents as well, and do a job and move on.

Generalizing? I’m not the one who thinks police is the best way to respond to every scenario.

21 minutes ago, ICrappedMyPants said:

The only time I ever considered calling the cops what when the one dude was screaming at cars at the top of his lungs and swinging an aluminum baseball bat at the light post. It was truly a worrying moment. I actually went back a little after that to see if he was still out there and if he’d calmed down. He was gone. I had seen this same guy almost every day for two years. 

That’s the only time you called. I’d put dollars to donuts other people called them for no reason except they don’t like they way it looks.

[cartman | 195]

5 minutes ago, The Strangest said:

He’s mentally ill. Far worse than the memes peddled by the right and Bernie-or-busters suggest Biden is. Best case scenario, he’s just an insufferable asshole with a lying problem. Neither possibility is fit for office.

Yeah that is pretty fucking retarded lol.

[Magus | 169]

I am all for cracking down on police brutality, and giving justice to those like George Floyd and Philando Castile, etc. But IF no police at all is the end game here, i think that is a very bad overcorrection in the heat of the moment. Right now i see conflicting information. Some articles say disbanding the police, some say defund, and others say dismantle and rebuild something new. I am all for restructuring the policing system, honestly many things should be restructured in this country that are just no longer working for us. 

But police are still needed IMO. I mean even the Utopia in Demolition Man had police. Who else is going to respond to a murder, death, kill? 

@The Strangest Yup i seen this, like......how is this something that people think is okay to say as president? No proof at all, just a baseless accusation. It's straight up propaganda using a buzzword like Antifa to get his side riled up. And if it is a set up, the blood pooling out of the poor guys ear was a great way to sell it.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Magus

[CodysGameRoom | 2,009]

6 minutes ago, cartman said:

Yeah that is pretty fucking retarded lol.

You know using the word retarded is pretty fucking crass, right?

[cartman | 195]

3 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

You know using the word retarded is pretty fucking crass, right?

Let it go 

[NESfiend | 1,520]

11 minutes ago, Link said:

Cool. Let’s fund more social workers, pay them well, and give them the resources they need to do their jobs well and safely, including police escort if need be. Instead of only police, who are now expected to respond to 15 other kinds of incidents as well, and do a job and move on.

Generalizing? I’m not the one who thinks police is the best way to respond to every scenario.

That’s the only time you called. I’d put dollars to donuts other people called them for no reason except they don’t like they way it looks.

I don't think that police is the only answer, but its not the only answer that is being utilized now. I work with those social workers and they have been doing their jobs and doing them well long before anyone said we need to defund police. We absolutely need new and better approaches to attacking mental health problems that plague the country. I am totally with you on that. But that has zero to do with police funding and to mix the too together will only serve to alienate people. 

[ICrappedMyPants | 302]

22 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

You know using the word retarded is pretty fucking crass, right?

Agreed, but I’m not a fan of cussing in general. I don’t find it necessary to get a point across. Maybe if people were less casual about their language, they’d also be less casual about how they speak to and treat others.

Yes, that tweet is the perfect example of why he’s a dangerous narcissist whose outrageous actions and words can’t be defended by reasonable decent people.

I can’t say that I identify with the progressive movement, but the past 20 years have turned me off to the Republican Party. The past 4 years have moved me more less libertarian too. I align more with the American Solidarity party at this point.

Edited June 9, 2020 by ICrappedMyPants

[Doctornick | 419]

52 minutes ago, B.A. said:

These city council fools in Minneapolis aren't talking about just moving some money from the police to other areas, they actually believe in a police free city.  I grew up in the neighborhood that I got to watch burn down a couple of weeks ago, so I think I have somewhat of a unique perspective.  Let me show you a map. 

 

You can see on the bottom circle the 3rd police precinct which was burned down.  That 2nd circle is where I was pistol whipped as a 14 year old and had my shoes stolen off of my feet.  Now do you think I would have rather had police in the situation or a mental health professional?  Or how about the time when I was away at college and my mom was living alone, she had her window kicked in and her house robbed at gunpoint, in addition they kicked her cat into the wall (and I don't want to see a cat video @Estil, it's not the time).  I don't think she was looking for a social worker to show up.  

I don't disagree that the police have a lot of problems, especially the Minneapolis police. The main issue is the amount of power the union has, which strips away any ability to discipline problem officers. This idea of no police whatsoever however is ludicrous, and that is indeed what is being talked about.   

Nobody is gonna touch this one because you made too much sense, but I had a similar encounter growing up in a middle class suburb.  If people are really trying to defund police to the point of limited police presence everywhere that's just going to divide people even further.