General Current Events/Political Discussion

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

10 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Why isnt anyone upset with the federal government sending law enforcement into cities to whisk people into to un-marked cars, with no rights?

That is hugely disturbing and not only does it need to be stopped immediately, there are people in the decision making chain that need to be fired or possibly jailed over it.

[cartman | 195]

26 minutes ago, spacepup said:

I think most people would agree that anyone dying at the hands of police (or anyone else), is a tragedy.  Now, obviously there are some situations where it may have been necessary in order to prevent future harm, save lives, or stop a horrible incident.  I'll be the first to admit that there ARE absolutely situations where perhaps lethal force was the only practical means necessary of diffusing a situation, as terrible as it may be.  

A white person (or any other type of person) dying unjustly at the hands of police, is definitely an unfortunate tragedy, worthy of reflection, discussion, accountability, and so much more.  But talking about black people dying in similar fashion, is not an attempt to completely invalidate those other deaths.  It is a specific discussion, and a specific issue, that is being highlighted because of the disproportionate rate at which it is happening, when compared to the total population.  There are numerous studies to this effect, and it doesn't take long to find the data.

People are angry, and passionate, and fueling this discussion right now, because they have been trying to highlight this problem for further analysis, discussion, change, and in many people's minds, nothing has happened, or not enough has been done.  It is still happening.  The disproportionate deaths are still happening.  And yet again - NO - this does not invalidate the horrible tragedy of a white (or other) person dying also.  

So - we've identified the issue - now what?  Many people have differing opinions - and we can't even agree on the WHY, much less the WHAT to do about it.  As for the why, I believe it's incredibly complicated and our history absolutely plays a significant role in the why.  I don't think it can be brushed off with some extreme view of "all cops are evil racists" or "black people are dangerous criminals."  And even if those were true, or partially true, WHY!  If we truly believe that white people and black people (and everyone else) are all born human, and that we all share the same humanity, then what is going on in our society, that these disproportionate issues are occurring?  The answer, perhaps, lies in some of the systemic social issues we have, and we should be talking about that!  And now people are trying to talk about that.  And they want more than 'just' talk.

This isn't a problem we can just fix with a law, or a singular process.  But I refuse to believe that there is absolutely nothing we can do to address this issue.  And when people won't even acknowledge that it's an issue, that shows me we have much left to do.  And a focus on addressing this issue, does NOT mean that there are no other important issues!  There are battles for those as well, and people are fighting those.  

With a large enough sample of encounters there will be x amount of shootings, just as there will be x amount of everything else that covers the spectrum of human behavior. A lot of people seem to have this unrealistic expectation that unlawful killings must be brought down to 0 so whenever one happens there's new evidence of how "the system is failing" and fuel for activism. But the chase is illusionary because the utopia is unreachable.

There might be room for betterment i'm not saying there isn't but if the cultural paradigm is for mass protests and vandalism as a response then you're looking at having those become a fixed institution endlessly taking a toll on American society. No society can afford mass upheavals taking place on a routine basis that's not a reflection on their validity either it's just by their nature they can't keep being kicked off.

 

[Rhino | 105]

36 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Why isnt anyone upset at the white nationalists, actually killing people at protests?

 

Why isnt anyone upset with the federal government sending law enforcement into cities to whisk people into to un-marked cars, with no rights?

Well those are both disturbing. 

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

11 minutes ago, cartman said:

With a large enough sample of encounters there will be x amount of shootings, just as there will be x amount of everything else that covers the spectrum of human behavior. A lot of people seem to have this unrealistic expectation that unlawful killings must be brought down to 0 so whenever one happens there's new evidence of how "the system is failing" and fuel for activism. But the chase is illusionary because the utopia is unreachable.

There might be room for betterment i'm not saying there isn't but if the cultural paradigm is for mass protests and vandalism as a response then you're looking at having those become a fixed institution endlessly taking a toll on American society. No society can afford mass upheavals taking place on a routine basis that's not a reflection on their validity either it's just by their nature they can't keep being kicked off.

 

While it may be unrealistic to expect unlawful killings to be brought down to zero -- what CAN be done is to hold police accountable for 100% of unlawful killings and break up the culture of closing ranks around bad cops.

Better and reliable enforcement mechanisms need to exist for bad cops.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

24 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

That is hugely disturbing and not only does it need to be stopped immediately, there are people in the decision making chain that need to be fired or possibly jailed over it.

Can you imagine if Obama sent the feds into Kentucky or Florida because they were Run by Conservatives?

 

Trump is becoming more autocratic everyday, nobody who supports him should ever call themselves a “patriot” or “constitutionalist” 

[Rhino | 105]

36 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Defund the police. 

That could be part of the solution sure. I hope you don't think that will magically solve all problems though. It's a cultural problem at its roots. We all need to change how we treat people and change those around us. 

[Rhino | 105]

14 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

While it may be unrealistic to expect unlawful killings to be brought down to zero -- what CAN be done is to hold police accountable for 100% of unlawful killings and break up the culture of closing ranks around bad cops.

Better and reliable enforcement mechanisms need to exist for bad cops.

The difficulty of the nation and the court system is determining which ones are unlawful. I think that's definitely where some of the controversy comes from. Just look at the Michael Brown incident as a prime example. 

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

5 minutes ago, Rhino said:

That could be part of the solution sure. I hope you don't think that will magically solve all problems though. It's a cultural problem at its roots. We all need to change how we treat people and change those around us. 

That sounds reasonable! Btw, you are preaching to the choir with me. And I know there are plenty of other things that need to be addressed as well. 

[Doctornick | 419]

18 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Can you imagine if Obama sent the feds into Kentucky or Florida because they were Run by Conservatives?

 

Trump is becoming more autocratic everyday, nobody who supports him should ever call themselves a “patriot” or “constitutionalist” 

Yeah I thought that was fake at first.  Unless you're literally planning some sort of massive attack or terror incident, that shit doesn't belong in a free country.  That's literally Russia levels of insanity 

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

18 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Can you imagine if Obama sent the feds into Kentucky or Florida because they were Run by Conservatives?

 

Trump is becoming more autocratic everyday, nobody who supports him should ever call themselves a “patriot” or “constitutionalist” 

I'm pretty sure that if Obama had done half of what Trump has done, he'd have been assassinated.

What is going on with the unmarked vans and abductions is going to end with blown up buildings and/or dead people if it isn't stopped.

[ThePhleo | 2,198]

2 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

I'm pretty sure that if Obama had done half of what Trump has done, he'd have been assassinated.

What is going on with the unmarked vans and abductions is going to end with blown up buildings and/or dead people if it isn't stopped.

Ok I don’t watch the news anymore...wtf you talking about unmarked vans.

[Tulpa | 3,569]

7 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

Ok I don’t watch the news anymore...wtf you talking about unmarked vans.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2020/07/18/oregon-attorney-general-sues-federal-agencies-over-portland-arrests/5465670002/

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/17/us/politics/federal-agents-portland-arrests.html

[Rhino | 105]

16 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

That sounds reasonable! Btw, you are preaching to the choir with me. And I know there are plenty of other things that need to be addressed as well. 

I'm not directing it at you. If we all simply just be better people, that'll help a ton with all problems.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

Trump: Armed people in the capital building protesting in Michigan? It’s cool because they’re my supporters and have confederate flag patches.
 

Also Trump: Protests in Portland? Black and Brown people, Start kidnapping people off the street with no due process. 

[Rhino | 105]

27 minutes ago, Doctornick said:

Yeah I thought that was fake at first.  Unless you're literally planning some sort of massive attack or terror incident, that shit doesn't belong in a free country.  That's literally Russia levels of insanity 

Don't forget China and their concentration camps they have right now. Yes that's really still a thing in the 21st century. https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps#:~:text=As of 2018%2C it was,internment camps which are located

Edited July 20, 2020 by Rhino

[Rhino | 105]

15 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

Ok I don’t watch the news anymore...wtf you talking about unmarked vans.

https://www.npr.org/2020/07/17/892277592/federal-officers-use-unmarked-vehicles-to-grab-protesters-in-portland

[ThePhleo | 2,198]

Well that looks bad.

[fcgamer | 4,792]

6 hours ago, Estil said:

I call that the "dictionary defense/argument"...where someone defensively asks how can someone be against so-and-so issue when the dictionary just defines it as "so-and-so"?  The problem is, in most cases what the issue means in the dictionary is very different from what it means in practice.

That's why I call them bricks legos, dammit.

[Kguillemette | 1,561]

2 hours ago, Rhino said:

https://www.npr.org/2020/07/17/892277592/federal-officers-use-unmarked-vehicles-to-grab-protesters-in-portland

Reading that makes me really hope that these protesters were fully aware of this as a possibility. The more this happens at truly peaceful protests, the more people's eyes will be opened. Those on the fence of voting for Trump will remember this and vote accordingly this November. Stay strong boys and girls out there protesting in the streets! Remember, getting the hoses turned on you was part of MLKs plan. The new secret police Trump's proverbial hose! Straight abuse of people not breaking any laws.

[fcgamer | 4,792]

1 minute ago, Kguillemette said:

Reading that makes me really hope that these protesters were fully aware of this as a possibility. The more this happens at truly peaceful protests, the more people's eyes will be opened. Those on the fence of voting for Trump will remember this and vote accordingly this November. Stay strong boys and girls out there protesting in the streets! Remember, getting the hoses turned on you was part of MLKs plan. The new secret police Trump's proverbial hose! Straight abuse of people not breaking any laws.

I pray every night that Trump gets re-elected. If Biden gets elected, Taiwan is fucked. 

[Kguillemette | 1,561]

8 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

I pray every night that Trump gets re-elected. If Biden gets elected, Taiwan is fucked. 

I mean I understand voting with your own personal best interests at heart. But what is happening with the protests in Portland is a human rights issue in my eyes. I need to vote my conscience here and assume Biden will be tougher on China than Trump has painted his political enemies to be.

[fcgamer | 4,792]

11 minutes ago, Kguillemette said:

I mean I understand voting with your own personal best interests at heart. But what is happening with the protests in Portland is a human rights issue in my eyes. I need to vote my conscience here and assume Biden will be tougher on China than Trump has painted his political enemies to be.

Yeah look at Hong Kong. Real human rights issues. If Biden gets in, we will be seeing the same thing in Taiwan, and a takeover. 

[Kguillemette | 1,561]

2 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Yeah look at Hong Kong. Real human rights issues. If Biden gets in, we will be seeing the same thing in 

Well, hopefully not. I know I certainly recognize Taiwan as a country. I would assume and hope Biden would as well. I do acknowledge that we each vote with out best interests and personal vision of what we want America to be at heart. If you are dead convinced that Trump is the only thing standing in China's way of Taiwan's annexation, you do what you need to do. It is very fair of you to overlook human right's issues in Oregon if you and your countrymen feel you are staring down the barrel of a political gun.

[fcgamer | 4,792]

14 minutes ago, Kguillemette said:

Well, hopefully not. I know I certainly recognize Taiwan as a country. I would assume and hope Biden would as well. I do acknowledge that we each vote with out best interests and personal vision of what we want America to be at heart. If you are dead convinced that Trump is the only thing standing in China's way of Taiwan's annexation, you do what you need to do. It is very fair of you to overlook human right's issues in Oregon if you and your countrymen feel you are staring down the barrel of a political gun.

Well it's not just me, it's everyone. 

I'm not a person who believes in conspiracy theories, but just look at the chain of events that occurred over the past six months, and look at the events that occurred prior. Similarly look at Trump's stance on China. I'm not going to spell things out or connect dots here, but I definitely see a takeover, potentially violent takeover within the next few years, if Biden gets in, someone who definitely has not been a friend to Taiwan.

So let's say China takes over Taiwan, and the people here say "Okay, I'm done", and raise a white flag. Then what comes next? A large wave of people disappearing and being reeducated, alongside the "normal" human rights violations that China traditionally gives its people.

Furthermore, look at where Taiwan is located. There's a reason China cares about a dinky island the size of England, it's considered the "heart of Asia". So I'd Taiwan falls, it makes it strategically easier for China to flex their muscles around the whole area. According to scholars, of course the disputed islands would be taken first, but then even places as Okinawa are in China's sights. Definitely not a great thing at all for the USA and their interests worldwide.

[fcgamer | 4,792]

I just read an article where Biden was starting to "take a harder stance" on China...we need to ask ourselves why the China issue has become part of the election agenda this year. But he's just paying lip service, he wouldn't stand up to them.