Are Using Weapons/Items Cheating?

[PineappleLawnchair | 88]

Easy mode is cheating, at least in retro games, because there's games that will block off your progress if you choose that, meaning it's not the intended experience by the developers. Passwords, only become cheating if you use ones that weren't given to you, with some exceptions.

[fcgamer | 4,723]

27 minutes ago, PineappleLawnchair said:

Easy mode is cheating, at least in retro games, because there's games that will block off your progress if you choose that, meaning it's not the intended experience by the developers. Passwords, only become cheating if you use ones that weren't given to you, with some exceptions.

What about games where there is no difference, other than difficulty, between easy and normal mode?

[Sumez | 2,950]

1 hour ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

I apply it to everything, but I would use the same definitions. If a game gives you continues and you finish the game, I would call that completing it, but to say you beat the game would require a 1cc run. 

This is the idea I subscribe to. There's a difference between completing and beating.  Doesn't mean either isn't valid.

[Estil | 1,264]

As Harrison Ford in Air Force One said when his daughter while they watched a football game together pointed out pass interference and saying that's cheating...

"Only if you get caught"  

And didn't HOF pitcher Gaylord Perry once do a book called "It Ain't Cheating if You Don't Get Caught"?  I guess cheating with PED's is a grave mortal sin but cheating by doctoring the ball is a-okay!

Edited December 17, 2019 by Estil

[guillavoie | 1,208]

On the original question, while it's definitely not 'cheating' to use the items/weapons available in a game, I'd agree that sometimes to use of some of them can be described as sort of 'cheap'. The example of using the cloud in SMB3 is a good one, or even using the P-wing in a hard stage where it makes it a total cake walk. Yeah, the game let you do this, fine, but I can see it being view as sort of cheap.

And I agree with the difference between 'beating' games and 'completing' them, and the percentage sometimes given on save file is pretty explicit on this. Completing games should be getting 100 % rate of collecting items/beating stages available in the game, or whatever way of measurement you can reasonably about it on any specific games (like the stages beaten in Super Mario World).

[docile tapeworm | 4,198]

13 hours ago, Californication said:

I play better with the sound off. (Not as fun though)

A lot of times in the weekly contest I end up turning the sound off and playing music unless there are sound effects that you use as timing. 

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

3 hours ago, Sumez said:

This is the idea I subscribe to. There's a difference between completing and beating.  Doesn't mean either isn't valid.

Both are an accomplishment, but I always like trying to beat the game. 

[MachineCode | 159]

Not cheating if it's an intended part of the game, but can be cheap. I will say when it comes to speedrunning, I think glitch runs are bullshit despite the skill required to consistently trigger the glitch. I was really into speedrunning in the mid 2000's and the Twin Galaxies rules at the time clearly stated no glitching. They even gave the example of SMB1 wall jumping. I've always kept to that mindset when doing it myself.

[cj_robot | 542]

Unless you're taking part in a competition or something, then there's really no such thing as cheating. Games were meant to be fun. Play them however you want and feel good about it.

That being said, if you aren't playing with the controller upside down and the sound turned off and blindfolded, then you are clearly cheating. 

[peg | 370]

Using continues is basically playing the game in a practice mode, once you start using them, you are no longer playing the same game.  Using continues to reach the end is the same as "playing through" the game, but you didn't actually demonstrate any skill in playing it.  Grated this is more specific to "arcade style" games but when the game tells you "game over" you should believe it.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,525]

Cheating's a lot like pornography... 

 

 

Sometimes you see things you can't unsee.

or...

You know it when you're doing it.

or...

Something something skinny, sick to my stomach.

I haven't finished crafting that one.

[cartman | 195]

On 12/17/2019 at 1:04 AM, fcgamer said:

My brother and I sometimes have an argument while gaming, playing games such as Super Mario Bros 3 or the Mega Man series. I generally will not use the special weapons or items, aside from in few situations (such as maybe a difficult boss or something like that), as otherwise I feel they can make the game too easy. My brother will generally use (not abuse) the weapons or items quite liberally though, and feels that it's part of the fun.

Do you guys feel that using the special weapons and items is basically a form of cheating or not? 

Could you specify? I think the flute and cloud are sort of cheating because you're skipping out on playing altogether, the P is somewhat similar. The other items and suits are not the same because you're still playing the levels but with some different abilities.

[RH | 4,903]

14 minutes ago, cartman said:

Could you specify? I think the flute and cloud are sort of cheating because you're skipping out on playing altogether, the P is somewhat similar. The other items and suits are not the same because you're still playing the levels but with some different abilities.

But the SMB3 flute is still useful, even if you’re not looking to make it “easy”. Let’s assume it’s 1990, your a casual gamer, and you want to play through all of SMB3 and get your monies worth. It’s a long game if you play every level and doesn’t have a battery save so each time you play, you start from scratch.

With warp whistles, you can play through each level and world, cut the game off after world 4, and later just get a warp whistle to warp to stage 5 where you left off.

If memory serves me correctly, that was the point of the whistle. It’s not cheating to use it. It just allows you to get back to where you left off last time with little overhead or needing to spend and hour or more to get back to that point.

warp whistles are cheating but they definitely can be s time saving tool for the average, but competent, gamer.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

3 hours ago, cartman said:

Could you specify? I think the flute and cloud are sort of cheating because you're skipping out on playing altogether, the P is somewhat similar. The other items and suits are not the same because you're still playing the levels but with some different abilities.

I would have to disagree. Using items for their intended purpose shouldn't be an issue. If you managed to get a cloud or a P-Wing, the point is to help you get through a spot you would rather avoid.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

21 hours ago, peg said:

Using continues is basically playing the game in a practice mode, once you start using them, you are no longer playing the same game.  Using continues to reach the end is the same as "playing through" the game, but you didn't actually demonstrate any skill in playing it.  Grated this is more specific to "arcade style" games but when the game tells you "game over" you should believe it.

Continues were basically '80s save states. You can finish a game with them, but you can't say you legitimately beat it.

[cartman | 195]

2 hours ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

I would have to disagree. Using items for their intended purpose shouldn't be an issue. If you managed to get a cloud or a P-Wing, the point is to help you get through a spot you would rather avoid.

Technically speaking - yes you're right. But in practise if you're skipping levels that's about as "cheaty" as you can ever get in all but namesake.

[cartman | 195]

6 hours ago, RH said:

But the SMB3 flute is still useful, even if you’re not looking to make it “easy”. Let’s assume it’s 1990, your a casual gamer, and you want to play through all of SMB3 and get your monies worth. It’s a long game if you play every level and doesn’t have a battery save so each time you play, you start from scratch.

With warp whistles, you can play through each level and world, cut the game off after world 4, and later just get a warp whistle to warp to stage 5 where you left off.

If memory serves me correctly, that was the point of the whistle. It’s not cheating to use it. It just allows you to get back to where you left off last time with little overhead or needing to spend and hour or more to get back to that point.

warp whistles are cheating but they definitely can be s time saving tool for the average, but competent, gamer.

Yeah but how you use it doesn't change what it does. Even if you go back to where you would've been anyway that's still only because you choose to do so and not a part of the gameplay mechanic itself wich is allowing worlds to be skipped.

You can use savestates on an emulator not because you can't reach that level again but rather out of laziness to do so but that doesn't change the fact that a savestate is cheating. You're continuing when it should've been game over that's the bottom line.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

5 minutes ago, cartman said:

Technically speaking - yes you're right. But in practise if you're skipping levels that's about as "cheaty" as you can ever get in all but namesake.

When the items intended purpose is to be able to skip a level of your choosing I don't consider that cheating, but that's just my opinion. I'd still play it through because I personally like to complete each level.

[cartman | 195]

1 minute ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

When the items intended purpose is to be able to skip a level of your choosing I don't consider that cheating, but that's just my opinion. I'd still play it through because I personally like to complete each level.

Strictly speaking "cheating" is using an action outside the gameplay mechanics and since SMB 3 allows these things, it doesn't qualify. If you beat the game you've beaten it. But it is a type of foul play and not the clean way of going about it that's what I'm trying to say. There's degrees to it and this is way out there on the spectrum. If you're swapping weapons in Contra 3 to gain an advantage in firepower you're dabbling in shenanigans but you're less guilty of it because you're still playing every aspect of the game. Double Dragon arcade elbow abuse is a main attack in the game it's their fault for programming it that way - but it's still kinda low to use the elbow in every single attack.

[Link | 2,709]

Shortcuts are not cheating. If you climb a vine into the sky and pass part of a level (and get a bunch of extra coins), it’s easier but that’s just an alternate path, as are warp zones and the like. 

Other intended possible shortcuts, like flying over most of a level, are not cheating. Using in-game items are not cheating. If they are, then so are power-ups, extra lives, energy refills (portable or not). Some people can 1cc a game, never taking hits or bonuses, and that is certainly impressive and another level of skill. But doing otherwise, isn’t cheating.

Unintended shortcuts, like exploiting a glitch to shoot halfway across the level, generally take more skill to pull off than traversing the whole way normally. It might be considered cheating, but in the way of counting cards in blackjack - not something that can be done without high skill and knowledge of the game. And honestly, I don’t consider card counting cheating. Only the house does, because it affects the odds. If you’re smart enough to keep track of what’s been dealt in your head, that’s just strategy, imo.

[peg | 370]

3 hours ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

Continues were basically '80s save states. You can finish a game with them, but you can't say you legitimately beat it.

Yes, exactly, and I'm glad more and more people around here are actually waking up to this reality.  I was shit on all over NA for saying the same damn things for years and years because it's crushing to some to realize that all their supposed accomplishments really meant nothing.  I think people need to ask themselves why they even give you continues in the first place.  Why not just give the player more lives instead?  Because continues are not meant to be used in legitimate playthrough of the game, they tell you "game over" and delete your score for a reason.

Continues are truly nothing more than a poor man's save state.

To address the question of the OP, no, using items is not cheating.  Even using "imbalanced items" such as warp whistles is not cheating, since those are actual mechanics of the game itself.  Nowhere do they tell you game over or clear your score when you use these items, unlike using continues.  Unlike using continues, you aren't breaking the contract between the player and the game by using powerful items.

Edited December 19, 2019 by peg

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

13 minutes ago, cartman said:

Strictly speaking "cheating" is using an action outside the gameplay mechanics and since SMB 3 allows these things, it doesn't qualify. If you beat the game you've beaten it. But it is a type of foul play and not the clean way of going about it that's what I'm trying to say. There's degrees to it and this is way out there on the spectrum. If you're swapping weapons in Contra 3 to gain an advantage in firepower you're dabbling in shenanigans but you're less guilty of it because you're still playing every aspect of the game. Double Dragon arcade elbow abuse is a main attack in the game it's their fault for programming it that way - but it's still kinda low to use the elbow in every single attack.

I stick with my stance that using an item/attack as intended is legal. The spin slash in Ninja Gaiden kills bosses in one hit. The Holy Water in Castlevania stuns bosses to where they can't hit you. It might not be "fair", but that's how they were designed so I wouldn't hold it against anybody that uses anything of that nature.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

7 minutes ago, peg said:

Yes, exactly, and I'm glad more and more people around here are actually waking up to this reality.  I was shit on all over NA for saying the same damn things for years and years because it's crushing to some to realize that all their supposed accomplishments really meant nothing.  I think people need to ask themselves why they even give you continues in the first place.  Why not just give the player more lives instead?  Because continues are not meant to be used in legitimate playthrough of the game, they tell you "game over" and delete your score for a reason.

Continues are truly nothing more than a poor man's save state.

To address the question of the OP, no, using items is not cheating.  Even using "imbalanced items" such as warp whistles is not cheating, since those are actual mechanics of the game itself.  Nowhere do they tell you game over or clear your score when you use these items, unlike using continues.  Unlike using continues, you aren't breaking the contract between the player and the game by using powerful items.

100% agreed!

[peg | 370]

It's pretty obvious to me that the holy water in Castlevania was intended to be used on the Reaper boss.  Like, they specifically put it into the game as a kind of puzzle element to solve in order to progress in the game.  You were never expected to beat him without the holy water.  It's kind of like Mega Man, in that yes, you can beat most of the bosses using your shitty default weapon but why do that when you can use a weapon that they have a massive weakness to?

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

24 minutes ago, peg said:

It's pretty obvious to me that the holy water in Castlevania was intended to be used on the Reaper boss.  Like, they specifically put it into the game as a kind of puzzle element to solve in order to progress in the game.  You were never expected to beat him without the holy water.  It's kind of like Mega Man, in that yes, you can beat most of the bosses using your shitty default weapon but why do that when you can use a weapon that they have a massive weakness to?

There's also a skill level involved getting to the bosses in Ninja Gaiden with the spin slash or Castlevania with the Holy Water so it only seems fair if you can use them if you keep them that long.