RH | 4,903 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 8 hours ago, Reed Rothchild said: Lol, I only know about that film because of Rifftrax. I love how it's called "Miami Connection" but from I recall there was no connection to Miami and 100% of it takes place at an Orlando Community College. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RH | 4,903 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 Sorry, I haven't kept up with this discussion so some of this might have been stated but I wanted to think about a more serious response. IMHO, the Squaresoft PS1 era really hit it's highest stride in storytelling, if you could get past the fact that their games were only decently translated into English. Regardless, look at a game like Final Fantasy Tactics. That's a story that's hard to even boil down to to a sentence or two--you have a country that was at war with two other countries surrounding it and this "50 years war" has just ended as the game starts. The king is dying at the beginning of the game and there are two, young individuals who might become the ruler of the kingdom. Since they are too young to rule, they need "regents" to rule in their place and as such, two factions within the kingdom are formed and the war between these two factions sets the stage for the game. Which faction is truly good and which one is evil? Eh... at least at the beginning you kind of flip-flop on who or what to support. Your main character, Ramza, is thrust in the middle of this and is a born-noble who's has friends within and respects the "common" class. I won't go into full detail but it's a complex story and if you're willing to pay attention, it's fascinating. I think the nature of the story is more common to a Japanese audience but not to Westerners. It's been my armchair observation that the struggle of "what is truly good" and who is truly right or wrong feels like a common under current to Squaresoft titles, but the path is always made clear because one faction always tends to be a bit more honorable than the other. But I don't think that was the case with FF:T. I point this out because stories like these were very diverse back in the late 90s for these RPGs but they were not your standard "save the princess' motif, or even if the basic story was "Save the World", intricate interpersonal connections and muddied morals and ethics were dispersed through these stories to keep them engaging and would make you ask questions about what was right in the given world you were playing through. In fact, some times you might even ask yourself, what am I even playing for? Sure, you might be fighting to save the world, but some worlds are so screwed up, you're left asking as a character and a player, why is it even worth bothering? As RPGs, there's fun in playing and building out character stats, skill trees or beefing up your armor or whatever. But some times you engage the stories in the middle of all of that menu-tweaking and you realize, you don't even know what you're doing in the middle of that world. But that's not because of bad storytelling. On the contrary, Square made stories where you asked yourself, frequently within the context of the given world, what really is the meaning to life and what is "morally" right when all is said and done and, some times, you're left without a direct answer. In my opinion, that was good storytelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webhead123 | 675 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 9 hours ago, Reed Rothchild said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wongojack | 214 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 22 hours ago, final fight cd said: Is there anybody that played a game with great gameplay, but the story was shit, so it turned you off from the game? I'm sure their fans will love this answer, but everything by FromSoftware for me. I tried REALLY hard to play Demons' Souls and Dark Souls. People always complain about the difficulty, but as a classic gamer, the format of try/repeat doesn't bother me. Instead, it is the half-assed story that makes me quit these. It would be different if they weren't attempting such a large scale "save the world" type scope. They step the player into a HUGE story and it just doesn't deliver for me. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarzombie | 924 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 13 hours ago, CMR said: I don't know if this counts, but Mega Man X 5 (or maybe it was 6) was completely ruined by the constant dialogue popups during the game. True story, as unbelievable as it seems. I have a friend thats a big Mega Man fan. Back in the day we had modded PSxs and he downloaded Mega Man X5. Hated it. Hated it SO much, that he went to a video game store in the mall, bought a copy for $20 and threw it right out in front of the store haha. The next time he went back the guy said "you're not gonna throw this one out too are you?". Classic. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wongojack | 214 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 2 hours ago, RH said: Sorry, I haven't kept up with this discussion so some of this might have been stated but I wanted to think about a more serious response. IMHO, the Squaresoft PS1 era really hit it's highest stride in storytelling, if you could get past the fact that their games were only decently translated into English. Regardless, look at a game like Final Fantasy Tactics. That's a story that's hard to even boil down to to a sentence or two--you have a country that was at war with two other countries surrounding it and this "50 years war" has just ended as the game starts. The king is dying at the beginning of the game and there are two, young individuals who might become the ruler of the kingdom. Since they are too young to rule, they need "regents" to rule in their place and as such, two factions within the kingdom are formed and the war between these two factions sets the stage for the game. Which faction is truly good and which one is evil? Eh... at least at the beginning you kind of flip-flop on who or what to support. Your main character, Ramza, is thrust in the middle of this and is a born-noble who's has friends within and respects the "common" class. I won't go into full detail but it's a complex story and if you're willing to pay attention, it's fascinating. I think the nature of the story is more common to a Japanese audience but not to Westerners. It's been my armchair observation that the struggle of "what is truly good" and who is truly right or wrong feels like a common under current to Squaresoft titles, but the path is always made clear because one faction always tends to be a bit more honorable than the other. But I don't think that was the case with FF:T. I point this out because stories like these were very diverse back in the late 90s for these RPGs but they were not your standard "save the princess' motif, or even if the basic story was "Save the World", intricate interpersonal connections and muddied morals and ethics were dispersed through these stories to keep them engaging and would make you ask questions about what was right in the given world you were playing through. In fact, some times you might even ask yourself, what am I even playing for? Sure, you might be fighting to save the world, but some worlds are so screwed up, you're left asking as a character and a player, why is it even worth bothering? As RPGs, there's fun in playing and building out character stats, skill trees or beefing up your armor or whatever. But some times you engage the stories in the middle of all of that menu-tweaking and you realize, you don't even know what you're doing in the middle of that world. But that's not because of bad storytelling. On the contrary, Square made stories where you asked yourself, frequently within the context of the given world, what really is the meaning to life and what is "morally" right when all is said and done and, some times, you're left without a direct answer. In my opinion, that was good storytelling. I should explore this genre more. For me, this type of storytelling isn't very appealing. I tend to fall into a school of thought where if you can't explain it then it isn't a story, it is just an idea. I do like that the game makes you think about things that you might not otherwise. That is a quality of a great book or other deeper story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumez | 2,951 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 (edited) 3 hours ago, wongojack said: It would be different if they weren't attempting such a large scale "save the world" type scope. Are... are you sure it was a Souls game that you played?? I can understand not vibing with the game's unique form of communicating its plot. But this is the first time I've heard anyone unironically(?) calling it half-assed! The depth of those games' lore is pretty insane. Edited January 9 by Sumez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wongojack | 214 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 (edited) 3 hours ago, Sumez said: Are... are you sure it was a Souls game that you played?? I can understand not vibing with the game's unique form of communicating its plot. But this is the first time I've heard anyone unironically(?) calling it half-assed! The depth of those games' lore is pretty insane. Is having lots of "lore" the same as telling a story? Edit because I don't want that to be inflammatory. I am open to the idea that if there is a lot of deep background that some might interpret that as a good story. I'd actually like to hear more about that because it might help me enjoy those games more. Edited January 9 by wongojack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fox | 1,667 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 @wongojack It is best to approach things as an archeologist exploring a hostile dying or dead world. You have to pay attention to NPCs, item descriptions, and the environmental storytelling. It isn’t going to hold your hand and stop you every 5 mins to bop you over the head with a cutscene. You don’t have all the pieces so it is up to you to use your brain and make connections and some parts are open to interpretation. Everything about the games is intricate and interconnected including the story. Nothing about it is a half measure, there is a clear style and design vision. They have different endings and interpretations. It might be too late to save the world, and which is the least bad option in a hopeless situation. There is also a whole community of players looking to uncover every detail and craft their own theories. Kind of a throwback to talking to friends on the playground about their trials and discoveries when playing the same game. There are really well done deep dive videos explaining the games that are worth a watch once you finish it too just to see their takes. Much like the challenge, the story is not immediately accessible to everybody, but for those who are up for it, it can be rewarding. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMR | 520 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 (edited) 8 hours ago, wongojack said: I'm sure their fans will love this answer, but everything by FromSoftware for me. I tried REALLY hard to play Demons' Souls and Dark Souls. People always complain about the difficulty, but as a classic gamer, the format of try/repeat doesn't bother me. Instead, it is the half-assed story that makes me quit these. It would be different if they weren't attempting such a large scale "save the world" type scope. They step the player into a HUGE story and it just doesn't deliver for me. I bought Dark Souls II, and had to just make up my own story to tell myself. Their stories are just miserably depressing. I think it's the same reason I prefer Resident Evil games over Silent Hill. Edited January 10 by CMR 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captmorgandrinker | 1,649 Administrator · Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 The Yakuza series and Lost Judgment games all have great stories, you'll just need to read subtitles in the Yakuza ones. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumez | 2,951 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 (edited) 10 hours ago, wongojack said: Is having lots of "lore" the same as telling a story? Well no, I wouldn't say so. And that's also why I think it's totally fair to not enjoy it much, if you go in expecting an epic adventure full of events and intrigue. Souls games are definitely not that. I just think it's very wrong to say it's half-assed, because it is constructed extremely deliberately, and expertly. Personally I really enjoy going into a game without constantly having to put up with excessive dialogue and cutscenes. The game lets you play as you like from the get-go, and you can totally ignore the story if you want, or you can spend hours just observing the details in the backgrounds, item descriptions, or the mountain of youtube videos trying to dissect the lore Personally I don't delve too much into those things, but I think their presence are constantly felt while playing the game, which makes the world feel much more immersive. 10 hours ago, wongojack said: Edit because I don't want that to be inflammatory. I am open to the idea that if there is a lot of deep background that some might interpret that as a good story. I'd actually like to hear more about that because it might help me enjoy those games more. There definitely is. Like @fox said, it feels like an archeologist approach. Although a lot of information can be gauged from what can be observed in the games, a lot of it also builds on symbolism, emotions and impressions - the true nature of the games' worlds is often up to pure interpretation, although there is definitely also a concise mythology there to be found. In short, there is a story, but it's not happening as you play - it already happened. I think if you want to piece things together, it helps to think of time in these games as non-linear, as a lot of events seem to be recurring, or belonging to the far past or present yet happening all at once. It's definitely nothing as clear-cut as "you have to save the world". One thing is clear though, the worlds of FromSoft's soulslike games are dilapidated and hopeless beyond repair, and your quest is likely pointless. Like @CMR said, it is honestly very depressing. Edited January 10 by Sumez 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wongojack | 214 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 15 hours ago, fox said: @wongojack It is best to approach things as an archeologist exploring a hostile dying or dead world. You have to pay attention to NPCs, item descriptions, and the environmental storytelling. It isn’t going to hold your hand and stop you every 5 mins to bop you over the head with a cutscene. You don’t have all the pieces so it is up to you to use your brain and make connections and some parts are open to interpretation. Everything about the games is intricate and interconnected including the story. Nothing about it is a half measure, there is a clear style and design vision. They have different endings and interpretations. It might be too late to save the world, and which is the least bad option in a hopeless situation. There is also a whole community of players looking to uncover every detail and craft their own theories. Kind of a throwback to talking to friends on the playground about their trials and discoveries when playing the same game. There are really well done deep dive videos explaining the games that are worth a watch once you finish it too just to see their takes. Much like the challenge, the story is not immediately accessible to everybody, but for those who are up for it, it can be rewarding. 14 hours ago, CMR said: I bought Dark Souls II, and had to just make up my own story to tell myself. Their stories are just miserably depressing. I think it's the same reason I prefer Resident Evil games over Silent Hill. 9 hours ago, Sumez said: Well no, I wouldn't say so. And that's also why I think it's totally fair to not enjoy it much, if you go in expecting an epic adventure full of events and intrigue. Souls games are definitely not that. I just think it's very wrong to say it's half-assed, because it is constructed extremely deliberately, and expertly. Personally I really enjoy going into a game without constantly having to put up with excessive dialogue and cutscenes. The game lets you play as you like from the get-go, and you can totally ignore the story if you want, or you can spend hours just observing the details in the backgrounds, item descriptions, or the mountain of youtube videos trying to dissect the lore Personally I don't delve too much into those things, but I think their presence are constantly felt while playing the game, which makes the world feel much more immersive. There definitely is. Like @fox said, it feels like an archeologist approach. Although a lot of information can be gauged from what can be observed in the games, a lot of it also builds on symbolism, emotions and impressions - the true nature of the games' worlds is often up to pure interpretation, although there is definitely also a concise mythology there to be found. In short, there is a story, but it's not happening as you play - it already happened. I think if you want to piece things together, it helps to think of time in these games as non-linear, as a lot of events seem to be recurring, or belonging to the far past or present yet happening all at once. It's definitely nothing as clear-cut as "you have to save the world". One thing is clear though, the worlds of FromSoft's soulslike games are dilapidated and hopeless beyond repair, and your quest is likely pointless. Like @CMR said, it is honestly very depressing. Thanks for the responses! I'd really enjoy the games more if there was just a bit more adherence to things like defining the main characters, conflict for those characters and what those characters want to do to resolve that conflict. Even if those things are hopeless and depressing. I don't need cutscenes, but the games seem to leave out all of the content that would be in a traditional story about depressed people throwing themselves against hopeless odds. If I have to make that stuff up for myself then I am much less likely to stick with it. I have spent the most time with the first two games (Demons' Souls and Dark Souls), and I have heard that these games actually have a bit MORE traditional story in them than others which got me even more discouraged, but your posts are helping me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumez | 2,951 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 Souls games do not have "main characters" let alone characters at all, as much as they have a vague selection of mythological figures, heh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed Rothchild | 9,526 Editorials Team · Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 11 minutes ago, Sumez said: Souls games do not have "main characters" let alone characters at all, as much as they have a vague selection of mythological figures, heh 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wongojack | 214 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 1 hour ago, Sumez said: Souls games do not have "main characters" let alone characters at all, as much as they have a vague selection of mythological figures, heh That's what leads me to call them "half assed." I have a technical job, but my education is artsy-fartsy. I studied theatre. If you are going to play a role or write a play/screenplay, you do all the work to define the plot, conflict, resolution. You think through the life of the characters years before and years after the action takes place. If you are writing about something unfamiliar, you work through any logic problems you might have with people, places, things you are including and get feedback from others about how they act and what is normal. You can't include armadillos in England etc. Once you are done with creating a thorough foundation for your story, you have to move on and write what the characters are actually going to say and how they will move during your play/movie/show whatever. You write their childhood backstories. You have to think through their words and how they will say them, using all the work you did foundationally to set them in a specific place and time. This is what creates your characters and makes the audience love or hate them while they go about doing whatever action it is you have planned. If you skip this step then you have no show. My first take when I played a "Souls" game is that FromSoftware probably does some work on step one. Creates a map, names all the places, decides on some sort of style for those places and a backstory for their leaders etc. They've likely built on this through the years so that the foundations have been thought about a lot. However, they probably take the position that instead of putting on a play/movie, they are making a game, so they aren't going to spend time writing a lot of dialog or choosing which type of dog such and such character had as their first pet. Instead, they want to let the game show how the action plays out. I respect this take because I know there is an audience for it and after all, they are making a video game. However, if we try to call what they are making a "story" then I think it is an incomplete effort. And they definitely do try to make it seem like you are playing a story. At least at first, but it is clear after a while that the game doesn't REALLY care about that. I really like story-driven games, so it shocked me when I first played one of their games. There was obviously thought put into the foundations of the world in which the game was set. Where was the rest? I just didn't know anyone who I thought would continue playing it without the things that come with attempts at a traditional story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed Rothchild | 9,526 Editorials Team · Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 They're definitely not story-driven. And they were perfectly aware of stances like yours, which is why they hired George RR Martin for Elden Ring. It made no difference. I prefer them they way they are. Less is more in this instance. And I generally enjoy big fat stories. Hell, I just wrapped up House in Fata Morgana. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMR | 520 Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 George RR Martin's stories are depressing too, IMO. I do think FromSoftware's stories are designed to facilitate the experience they're trying to deliver with their games. It's just not really an experience I care to have. Spoiler A good comparison is the RE7 and RE8 games. The MC ultimately turns out to be a monster, but we can emphasize with him because of the characterization and human qualities they put into his story. You don't get that from FS's games. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fox | 1,667 Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 10 hours ago, wongojack said: Once you are done with creating a thorough foundation for your story, you have to move on and write what the characters are actually going to say and how they will move during your play/movie/show whatever. You write their childhood backstories. You have to think through their words and how they will say them, using all the work you did foundationally to set them in a specific place and time. This is what creates your characters and makes the audience love or hate them while they go about doing whatever action it is you have planned. If you skip this step then you have no show. Video games are an interactive medium. You aren't just a passive audience member but you are the lead actor and co author of the story. Heck you are the director of photography too if there is camera control. That is especially true when your character is a black slate or you get to create a character from scratch. In that case, their backstory and personality and style is in your hands. The character is incomplete because they require the player to breath life into them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumez | 2,951 Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 16 hours ago, wongojack said: Once you are done with creating a thorough foundation for your story, you have to move on and write what the characters are actually going to say and how they will move during your play/movie/show whatever. You write their childhood backstories. You have to think through their words and how they will say them, using all the work you did foundationally to set them in a specific place and time. This is what creates your characters and makes the audience love or hate them while they go about doing whatever action it is you have planned. If you skip this step then you have no show. I think the core difference here is that. Well. The Souls games aren't "a show". I think if them not having story driven events and characters that carry the progress of the game itself is "half-assed", that's similar to calling Tetris or Super Mario half-assed. They just aren't meant to have it, and are arguably better for not having it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wongojack | 214 Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 On 1/6/2024 at 3:19 PM, Floating Platforms said: I just got to the part in Powerwash Simulator where the client texted me to say "you smell like a stinky butt butt" and then informed me when they had to poop and then again to confirm "i did it." Does that count? 1 hour ago, Sumez said: I think the core difference here is that. Well. The Souls games aren't "a show". I think if them not having story driven events and characters that carry the progress of the game itself is "half-assed", that's similar to calling Tetris or Super Mario half-assed. They just aren't meant to have it, and are arguably better for not having it. And Power Wash Simulator too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirVillain | 489 Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 DRAGON SPIRIT MUHFUCKAAAAAAAASSSSS!!!! I don't care about any cliches of saving a princess, blah, blah, blah.... This game is awesome. Also... I think you have to go save your twin sister after your father is killed by a dragon, so you turn into a radical blue dragon and go kick some ass. It's the best. That is all. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koifish | 556 Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 The only games whose stories I like are Mother 3 and Ace Combat 4. Both are good stories and generally good games, though M3 drags at points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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