What percent of the experience is the software?

[Reed Rothchild | 9,549]

14 hours ago, Sumez said:

A good game is clearly a good game even if I'm sitting in a torture bench. 

I played Skies of Arcadia 20 years ago, and would have had a great time, but all I can think about is how uncomfortable that recliner was...

[phart010 | 1,707]

This topic will have many nuances and insights can be gained by looking at it from many different angles 

The way I was looking at it, (and I don’t mean for this to limit the scope of the discussion) is from the perspective of game publishers. They are re-releasing collections of retro games.

I question whether the games in the collections are having the impact with gamers the publishers were hoping for. A lot of these retro games are acclaimed for the full “gaming experience” that they brought to gamers at the initial release. The rerelease in these new retro collection is usually just the software, it doesn’t capture the full experience.

Edited October 30, 2023 by phart010

[Kguillemette | 1,545]

15 hours ago, fcgamer said:

If you're first experience playing the latest Mario is whilst you're also get gang banged by a couple strangers, whilst being forced to huff fumes from onions and stinky tofu, you probably won't find the game very fun or even have a desire to revisit it later.

wtf. Only you...

 

I'm of the opinion that while I acknowledge and respect that external factors play a role in everything we do, this is largely overthought. Games are only designed to stimulate 2 or 3 senses after all. It doesn't mean I will or won't enjoy a game in a vacuum sense.

 

 

[GPX | 1,370]

24 minutes ago, phart010 said:

This topic will have many nuances and insights can be gained by looking at it from many different angles 

The way I was looking at it, (and I don’t mean for this to limit the scope of the discussion) is from the perspective of game publishers. They are re-releasing collections of retro games.

I question whether the games in the collections are having the impact with gamers the publishers were hoping for. A lot of these retro games are acclaimed for the full “gaming experience” that they brought to gamers at the initial release. The rerelease in these new retro collection is usually just the software, it doesn’t capture the full experience.

Here’s an interesting thought exercise I just thought of and it relates well to your initial angle of the OP.

Say you were to play a game you loved that happens to be in this re-release package. You played it again and rediscovered why you loved it in the first place (for various reasons). You then completed it and decide to finish it every week or two, with the aim to better your hi-score or run-through time in the next 12 months. Over this period, would the external/nostalgic influences change with respect to your attention to the software experience?

I would argue strongly that yes, the software experience changes from week to week, but it also changes on how much attention you want to give it.

 

[sp1nz | 613]

My gut feeling is that software has to be over 50% of the experience for the experience to be meaningful but many external factors may lower it below that threshold anecdotally but that's not a knock against the software's importance in an objective sense. Silent Scope on an arcade cab is amazing but it's just okay on PS2, so even if the software is "the same" and you're not being influenced by nostalgia or by negative feelings among other things, the hardware / player interaction aspects carry a ton of weight. You need the software to experience it in the first place but how you interact with it and in what circumstances will cause wild fluctuations on the importance of the software in the context of gaming. In the end the the very enjoyment of gaming is largely due to the variation of what will tick your boxes with different games, genres, hardware, gimmicks, difficulty, design etc. and it's not always the software that makes or breaks the experience but one would think that software is the driving force on average for the average game enjoyer, if things are done right.

[T-Pac | 7,560]

23 hours ago, fcgamer said:

I agree on this, it's nice that someone else is seeing things the way I am, maybe it's an artist thing?

I think it's more of a "not seeing the forest for the trees" thing.

To clarify - I'm only arguing against the "all-or-nothing" mentality, because saying the experience is 100% software or 100% external factors just isn't logical.

@spacepup is right that it's just semantics beyond that, and varies person-to-person and game-to-game.

[T-Pac]

[GPX | 1,370]

6 hours ago, T-Pac said:

I think it's more of a "not seeing the forest for the trees" thing.

To clarify - I'm only arguing against the "all-or-nothing" mentality, because saying the experience is 100% software or 100% external factors just isn't logical.

@spacepup is right that it's just semantics beyond that, and varies person-to-person and game-to-game.

[T-Pac]

I don’t think anyone here is saying the game experience is “always 100% software”. I believe most of us are basically saying the same thing, that it can range from anywhere between 10-100% depending on the circumstances.

I think the major disagreement is that a game can or can't provide 100% of the gaming experience. I can attempt at arguing that 100% can be provided by the software, where situations such as a tough stage or a boss fight where you need to give it the full attention. If external factors are not in your line of thought during those moments, then that’s 100% from the software/game. 

[Tulpa | 3,516]

21% software

19% hardware

12% the type of energy drink you have

17% the lumbar support on your gaming chair

5% the microtransactions you just put in (vintage consoles, 5% how much fiddling you had to do to get the cartridge to load)

26% if a VGS weekly contest is on the line and if you are still waiting for that Ikari Warriors II cartridge from Kenosha that hasn't arrived yet and Skinny's going to razz you for using an emulator and I'M SORRY, SKINNY, BUT I GOT OUTBID ON THE LAST AUCTION AND IT'S ON ITS WAY SO JUST LEAVE ME ALONE FOR ONCE!

Edited October 31, 2023 by Tulpa

[DefaultGen | 5,413]

7 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

21% software

19% hardware

12% the type of energy drink you have

17% the lumbar support on your gaming chair

5% the microtransactions you just put in (vintage consoles, 5% how much fiddling you had to do to get the cartridge to load)

26% if a VGS weekly contest is on the line and if you are still waiting for that Ikari Warriors II cartridge from Kenosha that hasn't arrived yet and Skinny's going to razz you for using an emulator and I'M SORRY, SKINNY, BUT I GOT OUTBID ON THE LAST AUCTION AND IT'S ON ITS WAY SO JUST LEAVE ME ALONE FOR ONCE!

Seriously such an easy fix...

[ZeldaFreak | 3,600]

55 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

21% software

19% hardware

12% the type of energy drink you have

17% the lumbar support on your gaming chair

5% the microtransactions you just put in (vintage consoles, 5% how much fiddling you had to do to get the cartridge to load)

26% if a VGS weekly contest is on the line and if you are still waiting for that Ikari Warriors II cartridge from Kenosha that hasn't arrived yet and Skinny's going to razz you for using an emulator and I'M SORRY, SKINNY, BUT I GOT OUTBID ON THE LAST AUCTION AND IT'S ON ITS WAY SO JUST LEAVE ME ALONE FOR ONCE!

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

I 100% agree with @T-Pac.

And not just because that name sounds like it belongs to somebody who went from being a member of D-Generation Xbox to joining Nintendo World Order (N.W.O.).

But rather because the percentage where the hardware comes into play varies for me. So for somebody like me, a non-handheld console has a better chance to help me feel like it is 100% the software. Simply because I can phase out the fact I am playing an arcade game, or even a PC (via Steam)/Xbox Series S/Switch OLED if both the hardware and controls (as well as my environment) allow me to do just that.

With me noting that most of that is tied to my variation of Asperger's. With the remainder being tied to the fact I just like making efforts to get deep into what is entertaining me.

When in fact I should be giving said format and the controls it offers credit for allowing me to be in that state of mind. Kind of like how certain hikers are able to walk through a forest and give the path they took full credit for their enjoyment. When in fact that the variety of trees in a forest did do more than be part of that path.

[Link | 2,714]

How does the nostalgia or whtever other external factor in this medium figure more heavily than it does in any other?

It doesn’t.

Did I eat pizza and get drunk and play Soul Calibur and THPS on DreamCast with an old friend back in the day in a storefront apartment and are those some of my favorite gaming memories? Yes. Those were good times with a friend. Those were the games of that moment, but it could have been any game. Those games were good 2 player games. And they are good games. I think they are good with or without those couch afternoons. Those afternoons could have easily been spent with other games. 

Did I get excited by commercials for SMB3 in 1990? I’m sure I did. Would I have stayed up all night playing it at sleepovers, would I still like it now, if it was not a great game on its own? Same question, X-Men 6-up but in the arcade instead of home? No and no.

Would I hate a movie because I saw it in a cheap second-run theater instead of IMAX or Alamo? No. Do I remember what kind of chair I sat in when I read Demian? Hell no.

Do I care that I’ve gone to great concerts with people I don’t like anymore? Does that mean I don’t like those bands or appreciate those performances? No…  Am I going to remember that I was playing SMB Wonder when some hypothetical strangers broke into my fucking house and gang raped me?? Well, yes, but that’s not going to change my opinion of the game itself.

I saw a great art exhibit on one of the worst days of my life, four months ago. Do I hate the art and artist? Do I no longer think it is amazing work or look forward to future projects? No, absolutely not. How ridiculous that would be. These are absurd things to say.

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

3 minutes ago, Link said:

How does the nostalgia or whtever other external factor in this medium figure more heavily than it does in any other?

It doesn’t.

I disagree on grounds that those who factor stuff like that require some type of stimuli. It could be a nostalgic recreation that makes the game (or games) be special to them. I mean... That is pretty much it.

Plus, I should note that I got to check out a Not Bansky art exhibit in Tokyo. The guy in charge sounded exactly like one of those types that talk about collecting and/or playing video games, but have no real clue what they are talking about. Yet they are there because the "environment" is their thing. So I do understand where you are coming from. 

[T-Pac | 7,560]

Grumble grumble ... everybody out here throwing shade on my "uncomfortable chair" example ... you can't run from the truth forever!!!

[T-Pac]

[fcgamer | 4,729]

Obviously Microsoft feels the hardware is an important part of the experience:

 

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

32 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Obviously Microsoft feels the hardware is an important part of the experience:

 

You said hard.

[Sumez | 2,967]

17 hours ago, T-Pac said:

Grumble grumble ... everybody out here throwing shade on my "uncomfortable chair" example ... you can't run from the truth forever!!!

So let's say you're playing in a chair that's so comfortable you don't even notice it exists. And you're playing with the best controller imaginable, so good that you're basically not thinking about the inputs, they just come out how you want every time.

Would you say they still count as major external factors? As I see it, aiming for quality in those departments (as one should) just helps detracting from negative external factors.

Of course a controller could also potentially be positively entertaining in its own right. Like, playing Steel Battalion is pretty much fun *only* because of the controller, the game is a drag. Or those arcade games where you're on skis, row a boat, or racing games with so strong force feedback that you need a seatbelt.
But if the game is designed around those controllers, do they even count as external... In that context I'd say "software" doesn't fully cover the game in a vacuum.

[T-Pac | 7,560]

6 hours ago, Sumez said:

So let's say you're playing in a chair that's so comfortable you don't even notice it exists. And you're playing with the best controller imaginable, so good that you're basically not thinking about the inputs, they just come out how you want every time.

Would you say they still count as major external factors? As I see it, aiming for quality in those departments (as one should) just helps detracting from negative external factors.

Of course a controller could also potentially be positively entertaining in its own right. Like, playing Steel Battalion is pretty much fun *only* because of the controller, the game is a drag. Or those arcade games where you're on skis, row a boat, or racing games with so strong force feedback that you need a seatbelt.
But if the game is designed around those controllers, do they even count as external... In that context I'd say "software" doesn't fully cover the game in a vacuum.

Distinguishing between "major / minor" or "positive / negative" external factors isn't my concern. I'm just trying to get the point across that ANY external factor plays a role in the experience, even if it's just on a subconscious level. Obviously you're not going to notice something like a dog barking across the street or a hole in the heel of your sock when you're "in the zone" playing a game, but there's a part of your brain that does - and factors it all into the conglomerate experience.

The term "in a vacuum" keeps getting repeated, but my argument is that it's cognitively impossible for us to analyze something like software "in a vacuum" since there's no way to experience it "in a vacuum".

[T-Pac]

[Sumez | 2,967]

Just now, T-Pac said:

Distinguishing between "major / minor" or "positive / negative" external factors isn't my concern.

Mine neither. My point was that as long as your controller isn't bad, it should barely count for an external factor at all.

1 minute ago, T-Pac said:

but my argument is that it's cognitively impossible for us to analyze something like software "in a vacuum" since there's no way to experience it "in a vacuum".

"In a vacuum" is perfectly useful as a theoretical state, though. I'd argue it's easier for us to analyze such things "in a vacuum" because individual and personal external factors are completely impossible to account for.

It doesn't matter if the hole in my sock and a barking dog impacts my experience with a game, I should still be able to tell what qualities the game has on its own, as long as I have at least a minimum of insight into how video game work

[Link | 2,714]

7 minutes ago, T-Pac said:

ANY external factor plays a role in the experience, even if it's just on a subconscious level. Obviously you're not going to notice something like a dog barking across the street or a hole in the heel of your sock when you're "in the zone" playing a game, but there's a part of your brain that does - and factors it all into the conglomerate experience.

Do you believe in free will?

[T-Pac | 7,560]

33 minutes ago, Sumez said:

Mine neither. My point was that as long as your controller isn't bad, it should barely count for an external factor at all.

"In a vacuum" is perfectly useful as a theoretical state, though. I'd argue it's easier for us to analyze such things "in a vacuum" because individual and personal external factors are completely impossible to account for.

It doesn't matter if the hole in my sock and a barking dog impacts my experience with a game, I should still be able to tell what qualities the game has on its own, as long as I have at least a minimum of insight into how video game work

True - I'll give you that. I still think that external factors are of some influence, however negligible, when trying to analyze in a theoretical vacuum - but I think we're basically on the same page here.

[T-Pac]

31 minutes ago, Link said:

Do you believe in free will?

Yes? ... but I'm not really following where you're going with this haha.

[T-Pac]

[fcgamer | 4,729]

2 hours ago, Sumez said:

Mine neither. My point was that as long as your controller isn't bad, it should barely count for an external factor at all.

Microsoft disagrees, per the article in the thread I linked to above.

[Link | 2,714]

1 hour ago, T-Pac said:

Yes? ... but I'm not really following where you're going with this haha.

[T-Pac]

Just that some of what you said reminded me of philosophical determinism or materialism - every choice we make is the result of other influences.

[phart010 | 1,707]

8 hours ago, Sumez said:

Mine neither. My point was that as long as your controller isn't bad, it should barely count for an external factor at all.

Wait. So you are saying that playing Street Fighter on an Arcade stick is barely different than playing it with a PS1 or Saturn controller?

[Link | 2,714]

56 minutes ago, phart010 said:

Wait. So you are saying that playing Street Fighter on an Arcade stick is barely different than playing it with a PS1 or Saturn controller?

Presentation is... something.

You can listen to an album on headphones or high-end 15" cones or anything in between. Obviously, better sound quality will provide a more enjoyable experience. But are you going to say it's bad music just because you hear it on some old blown-out bookshelf speakers?