Rethinking Homebrew - 2023

[fcgamer | 4,729]

I'm not really sure what a good thread name would be for this topic, but as someone who has been involved (behind the scenes, anyways) in NES homebrew since around 1998 or so, I've witnessed so many changes over the years. A few weeks back I was hand-soldering components onto PCBs, and then last night I was hand-cutting and folding boxes that I had printed at a local print shop - in fact, the first batch of boxes I asked them to reprint, since they had inadvertently scaled and resized the image in the process, making it too small. This was in relation to a game that I designed in NES Maker though, which is to be displayed at a local expo next month. And with that I would just like to discuss with the community what everyone's take is on what "homebrew" even is anymore, and what isn't.

I remember when Nintendo Age was on it's last legs, a small group of people had started referring to modern NES games as "indie" games rather than homebrew. Someone in the modern NES development scene (I forget who it was) had even mentioned feeling insulted or something to that effect if their game was referred to as a homebrew game, possibly in part as they had wanted to establish themselves as a legitimate developer, rather than just a hobbyist. 

Then we have the situation when NES Maker first came out. A lot of people refused to recognize these games as proper homebrew titles. A few people that immediately come to mind are homebrew veterans Beau of Sole Goose Games and KHAN of KHAN Games. On the Homebrew Games Club Podcast, hosted by @dvertov , @KHAN Games had the following to say about the situation, now in 2023:

"...but then like NES Maker came out, and we were worried like is it going to be a crap ton of shovelware, that it's going to like overshadow, you know, the projects that we were thinking were good but, um of course all those fears are put aside now because everyone's making great games, but..."

When pushed further, he added the following (aside from any typos or whatever due to be transcribing this when listening to a podcast):

"It's, it's been weird, um, you know, when when we were getting into it, everyone was doing it the hard way, programming it in Assembly. And then some people released some tools in the C programming language to make it a little bit more accessible for more people to make games. So yeah, when the NES Maker software came out, we didn't really know what to expect, but we were a...I guess I should only speak for myself...I was a little worried that just anyone was going to be able to get into it now, and...I don't necessarily want to say quality control but like, there's a lot of, when you look at like the Steam store or the Xbox store or like there's just a lot of crap out, and I was like man, like is this how NES homebrew's gonna be now, like our projects are going to get overshadowed by thousands of half-baked ideas that people could just throw together in NES Maker? Um and when things started out, there was a little of that, like people were making Kickstarter Campaigns for every little game that they thought that they could put together and trying to cash in, and I, you know, people can do what they want to do, I don't wanna disway them from doing that, but it was, it was a worry, so when Beau and I were trying to think of like what can we do, to point people in the direction of the games we would consider more...good, er, you know, more valuable, um so we were first toying with the idea of like putting together like a homebrew committee where we could like, not we, but like people could award some sort of seal of quality to a homebrew game to like sort of show which ones were the cream of the crop, but what we wound up settling on was starting a podcast called "The Assembly Line" where we could feature the games that we thought were worth looking at, and my opinion personally of the NES Maker software, I've softened a lot in the past few years because there are legitimately some great games that are being released using that software and it's bringing a lot of quality people, who maybe started with that software, have gotten more involved in the community, and seeing, seeing how else they can be involved, and sort of grouping up with some of us doing it from the old guard, um, so I think it's just all around a good, win-win situation because at the end of the day, it's getting more people interested in NES homebrew, it's getting more people involved, and um, it's just we're all here for the right reasons, we just want to play fun games."

While feeling quite disappointed by his initial feelings, which seem to have been shared by a lot of the old guard, I'm glad that at least now the light has been seen, and I also appreciat ethe candid honesty rather than hiding behind thinly-veiled justifications such as when the topic was initially brought up here on VGS, where it almost felt as if folks that made games using NES Maker would unfairly have a black mark upon them  

That being said, I do agree with the initial argument to some extent, without the from scratch programming, can NES Maker games truly be classified as homebrew games?

Then there are things such as the games being released by Mega Cat Studios and Limited Run Games. How about the Broke Studio stuff? Some of this stuff may be produced in smaller quantities, but we are also talking about perfectly-printed instruction manuals and high-quality boxes, with professionally-made cartridges; this stuff is basically on par with what one would get if he or she were to purchase a licensed game at retail back in the day. Long gone are the days of the metal tins sourced online or at the local dollar store, for instance.

Then there is the plethora of Japanese "homebrew", which is being designed by folks who were part of the industry back in the nineties. Even in the West we have this a bit, with professional programmers dipping into the homebrew market. Then in an even odder turn of events, a non-programmer by trade (at least I think that's his story), KHAN Games, has then ended up contracting on multiple occasions to produce games for large entities, such as Pawn Stars, or the other game that he mentioned on the recent podcast where he was interviewed. 

I'm not here to put down any of these folks and their efforts; however, I think we should be rethinking the terms applied to these games that are coming out, so that we can draw better comparisons, evaluate products better, and give credit where it's properly due.

Whether NES Maker games should be classified as homebrew or whether a game has to be developed from scratch, it's an issue I'm not going to touch as it lies close with me; however, I feel that games that are being produced by industry developers and then manufactured by professional factories should be viewed as indie or aftermarket games, rather than homebrew. Homebrew shouldn't necessarily be polished. It should have flaws and be assembled by hand in small quantities. That's my opinion, of course, but I'd personally like to see the stuff that is moving beyond a hobbyist level to be classified separately. 

Why should we distinguish between aftermarket / indie and homebrew? It's the same reason why we shouldn't compare the artwork from a five-year-old to that of a professional painter working in the industry, or of professional baseball players to that of non professionals. I appreciate and look for the best in anything of the sort, but to lump it all together ultimately ends up setting up unfair comparisons across the board. 

So let's discuss the state of the industry in 2023.

 

 

 

[Ferris Bueller | 495]

Man, so much to read. I'll get there.

From the intro I can say this, things have changed. I recently saw some posts on Twitter where people were getting upset about games being called homebrew. The arguments were they are no longer done by an individual, game quality has increased, distribution deals, etc. I may be adding some of my own thoughts there, but the jist was they are more like Indie releases now and labelling them as homebrew was derogatory.

Ten years ago, I got reamed for calling a thread on NA the homebrew price guide. Why? Because I was including repros in the list that was being disrespectful to developers who actually made new games. Homebrew was a badge of honor, don't sully it. The Twitter posts, mad at using homebrew because it was disrespectful to the teams. The weird thing was I don't think it was any of the creators on Twitter, just all the fans that were pissed off.

I was going to talk about this in a new Aftermarket Panel. Crazy how times change.

[fcgamer | 4,729]

@Ferris Bueller I'm sure I missed or forgot to mention a ton of things, similarly, I'm sure I am being biased and critical on some issues. 

The main thing for me was hand cutting boxes that I printed (twice), for demos that I'd be giving away in recycled Japanese cartridge shells (as it was cheaper than ordering decent shells), then also the whole bit of soldering components by hand. 

I thought to myself, wtf? 

 

[Dr. Morbis | 2,090]

The problem is that it's hard to change the lexicon when a word or term is already entrenched.  I think most of us in the hobby realize that a lot of aftermarket games are not actually "homebrewed" anymore, but that word came first, and it rolls off the tongue, so it's hard to have to make that concious effort to say "aftermarket" or "indie" or whatever else every time you're talking about a new game for the NES.

As for NES Maker, I feel like that program is specifically for the "homebrew" or first-timers market since it is a gateway into making NES games.  I can't imagine that any company contracting out work and actually paying a programmer would find the use of such a program to be acceptable for professional work, though I'm not in the "industry" so I may be wrong...

Edited June 10, 2023 by Dr. Morbis

[Ferris Bueller | 495]

1 hour ago, Dr. Morbis said:

...so it's hard to have to make that concious effort to say "aftermarket" or "indie" or whatever else every time you're talking about a new game for the NES.

Aftermarket actually got picked up and I see it out in the wild now. Makes me happy.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

A rose by any other name...

Programming with a tool like NESMaker is no different than using any other non assembly programming language.  It trades off complete freedom for ease of use.  Anyone suggesting games like that are somehow not homebrew games are fucking elitist idiots.  And until these "companies" are more than a dude in his basement doing a side hustle, they're homebrewers.  That takes out Limited Run and maybe Piko from the category.  

[DefaultGen | 5,414]

Categorizing lots of this stuff is hard. I made a Youtube video about it but don’t really agree with everything in it anymore. How many tools is too many tools for a homebrew dev to use? Do they have to code from the command line and make sprites with graph paper? Where’s the line between selling 20 carts on a forum and a Pawn Stars Kickstarter where it stops being “small”.

I honestly stopped worrying about slicing up aftermarket releases too finely. The much bigger fight I’m always up against is explaining there’s a huge difference between an Aliexpress Kaizo SMB3 ROM hack and a legal, fully self made, high quality release like Cornball Cocksuckers.

[fcgamer | 4,729]

3 hours ago, DefaultGen said:

I honestly stopped worrying about slicing up aftermarket releases too finely. The much bigger fight I’m always up against is explaining there’s a huge difference between an Aliexpress Kaizo SMB3 ROM hack and a legal, fully self made, high quality release like Cornball Cocksuckers.

Well if we are going to take this approach, then we might as well just start explaining how Nanjing when making their Final Fantasy VII demake is essentially the same as KHAN Games when making his Frogger and ET remakes... 

Both original, both unauthorized, both highly illegal, yet something more than an Aliexpress Kaizo SMB3 ROM hack. The difference between these two companies though would definitely be scope, as well as possibly intent though. While having some similarities, I don't think the two should be lumped together.

[Sumez | 2,968]

Nothing's changed, homebrew has been a perfectly well established concept since the 80s, and the name really says it all. 

Doesn't mean homebrew games can't be indie, they pretty much always are, and always have been 

[Tanooki | 4,939]

Well maybe something to consider would be thinking of it like this.  It's a lower bar to fly over when you have a homebrew game whether it was 10-20 years ago or 10-20 weeks ago, and the much higher bar to be deserving of being called an after market game.

There is some modern utter trash put out on various devices like those my arcade low end things with some truly subpart barely function and hardly fun trash which get ghosted in favor for the few old 8bit Data East titles they seem to love ot peddle.  On the other end of the spectrum whether shady or not, Leisure Suit Larry 1 (renamed) on NES or any of those other more modern things like Piko's Jim Power creation or stuff like Witch n Wiz.  You have then the old dug up treasures like Shubibinman for SFC Columbus Circle put out along with Kira Kira Star Night DX and the 8bit power music carts too.  All those are professional quality or were lost professional quality creations, very after market in ever respect of the word.  I'd consider a slight calling that stuff homebrew.

[Ferris Bueller | 495]

10 hours ago, Tanooki said:

Well maybe something to consider would be thinking of it like this.  It's a lower bar to fly over when you have a homebrew game whether it was 10-20 years ago or 10-20 weeks ago, and the much higher bar to be deserving of being called an after market game.

There is some modern utter trash put out on various devices like those my arcade low end things with some truly subpart barely function and hardly fun trash which get ghosted in favor for the few old 8bit Data East titles they seem to love ot peddle.  On the other end of the spectrum whether shady or not, Leisure Suit Larry 1 (renamed) on NES or any of those other more modern things like Piko's Jim Power creation or stuff like Witch n Wiz.  You have then the old dug up treasures like Shubibinman for SFC Columbus Circle put out along with Kira Kira Star Night DX and the 8bit power music carts too.  All those are professional quality or were lost professional quality creations, very after market in ever respect of the word.  I'd consider a slight calling that stuff homebrew.

Aftermarket is meant to catch all, so homebrew would be underneath it. The question to me is should there be a new category added to Aftermarket for a project... that is more corporate? Involves a larger team? Has more polish? A larger budget than want and dedication?

Indie Game seems to be what people are using. Might be like Repro and we go with it. I'm open to suggestions.

@Tanooki I think you may have been booted from NA when I did this, but here's my first Aftermarket panel where I go over the terminology.

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Ferris Bueller

[fcgamer | 4,729]

33 minutes ago, Ferris Bueller said:

Aftermarket is meant to catch all, so homebrew would be underneath it. The question to me is should there be a new category added to Aftermarket for a project... that is more corporate? Involves a larger team? Has more polish? A larger budget than want and dedication?

Indie Game seems to be what people are using. Might be like Repro and we go with it. I'm open to suggestions.

Yeah, I think there should be a few more categories added to the mix. Take the Columbus Circle games, such as the 8Bit Music ones. Those were developed by guys who were in the industry back in the day, iirc, and were all sold in large quantities, being distributed in retail shops across Japan and online, with professional boxes, manuals, carts, etc. To throw this into the same category as Memblers' Garage cart, for example, is ridiculous. 

In some ways I think developers should be able to classify the games in the ways that they want, and there might be times when someone prefers to classify their game as a homebrew, or as simply indie or aftermarket. That being said though, as games do get more professional in terms of scope, gameplay, polish, manufacturing, etc, I similarly feel that it is a disservice to be grouping these items into the same category as people who are on a much smaller scale. Otherwise we end up drawing unfair comparisons across the board.

[SailingWiimote | 16]

I think when you start splitting hairs over terminology, you segment the scene into different levels of purist personality types. A game is still a game at the end of the day.

Homebrew is still what it's always been, but it's advancing in a positive way. It's easier for people with good ideas to get their games made, and that's only an improvement. Also if you want to do things beyond the capabilities of the program, there's still some work involved in that.

I think the fact that some people are seeing it as a way to make a quick buck is a sign that homebrew is becoming a more legitimate scene than it used to be. Once the cease and desist letters start showing up, that's when you'll know things have gotten serious.

[fcgamer | 4,729]

29 minutes ago, SailingWiimote said:

I think when you start splitting hairs over terminology, you segment the scene into different levels of purist personality types. A game is still a game at the end of the day.

Homebrew is still what it's always been, but it's advancing in a positive way. It's easier for people with good ideas to get their games made, and that's only an improvement. Also if you want to do things beyond the capabilities of the program, there's still some work involved in that.

I think the fact that some people are seeing it as a way to make a quick buck is a sign that homebrew is becoming a more legitimate scene than it used to be. Once the cease and desist letters start showing up, that's when you'll know things have gotten serious.

I disagree about this statement. I think it would be fair to state that the indie market holds historical roots and a shared past with the homebrew scene, but that it has now evolved into its own thing and should be viewed as such.

On one end we have a few hobbyists in a garage hand-assembling cartridges, and on the other end we have professional day-job programmers producing games solely for their portfolio / for profit, who don't even want their games to be considered or viewed as hobbyist / homebrew. Then there are projects that lie somewhere in between the two ends of this spectrum.

If for no other reason, there starts to become a point where we begin comparing apples and oranges. On the recent podcast episode where old-school developer KHAN was interviewed, he mentioned his initial reservations about NES Maker, for example, and that he (and other first gen homebrew developers) were worried that their projects might get overshadowed, projects that they felt should receive the spotlight. I'd like to take this further and suggest that some of the professionally-developed games have the potential to overshadow smaller projects done by hobbyists of all backgrounds, if all projects are classified under the same label. It would be like comparing Boston Beer Company / Sam Adams to Liquid Art / Roy-Pitz brewery; both produce excellent tasting beer, but the latter is easily overshadowed by the former.  

[Dr. Morbis | 2,090]

6 hours ago, fcgamer said:

... and on the other end we have professional day-job programmers producing games solely for their portfolio / for profit, who don't even want their games to be considered or viewed as hobbyist / homebrew.

Are you suggesting that there are people who make after-market games as their day jobs and primary source of income?  This sounds highly dubious to me; I think the reason that the term "homebrew" has been a catch-all for so long is exactly because every NES game made in the last two decades has been a "side-job," whether it's for love of the console or an attempt at making a little bit of cash (or both).  If there's a single example of someone who gains their primary income through making NES games (or any older console's games) in 2023, I would absolutely love to know who he is and hear his story first-hand...

[neodolphino | 267]

3 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Are you suggesting that there are people who make after-market games as their day jobs and primary source of income?  This sounds highly dubious to me; I think the reason that the term "homebrew" has been a catch-all for so long is exactly because every NES game made in the last two decades has been a "side-job," whether it's for love of the console or an attempt at making a little bit of cash (or both).  If there's a single example of someone who gains their primary income through making NES games (or any older console's games) in 2023, I would absolutely love to know who he is and hear his story first-hand...

I'm pretty sure there are a few - and they don't have to be "he"s

[Dr. Morbis | 2,090]

1 hour ago, neodolphino said:

I'm pretty sure there are a few - and they don't have to be "he"s

Thanks, but fcgamer already provided the hearsay further up in this thread; I was wondering if there is an actual example of a "professional day-job programmer" who supports himself primarily through coding games for retired consoles from yesteryear...

[erac | 78]

I am one, and I could name several others.

[Ferris Bueller | 495]

7 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Thanks, but fcgamer already provided the hearsay further up in this thread; I was wondering if there is an actual example of a "professional day-job programmer" who supports himself primarily through coding games for retired consoles from yesteryear...

Man, you gots to chill. It's happening. And once again, we've been limited to coder. If you don't code, you're not a part of it.

[Tanooki | 4,939]

Seems like a bait trap coming out swinging at dave there for being wrong, yet in steps erac, who basically waves the hand and says ME! hours later.  Even in this tiny corner of the internet one so far, surely there are more.  And let's take this a bit wider with the fair use net of homebrew vs indie...why stop at 1980s/90s consoles and handhelds?  Some people roll the dice on a passion project and it could be on PC too.

What was once called shareware of the 90s would be considered your homebrew too.  Years ago when No Man's Sky dropped that was a few nobodies making something that went huge and blossomed over time even if it stumbled out of the gate.  That very much was your modern homebrew indie style work that ended up being one hell of a paycheck.  Yet you have on the reverse with PC... IGA and his Bloodstained pet project since Konami sucks, very very corporate highball level stuff there dont think he'd appreciate being called homebrew but indie fits, and had it not been licensed and released on consoles (etc) aftermarket would definitely apply there as well.

[SailingWiimote | 16]

I enjoy homebrew because cool things come from it, so don't take what I'm about to say the wrong way as if I'm condemning the concept. I think the core difference between modern day homebrew for older systems and being an indie developer is that the form of homebrew we partake in these days is technically not legal. The difference between the example of old PC game shareware is that it was free. Homebrew devs we see around places like this tend to charge money for it, which is where they could end up in trouble over it at some point.

If you had to split hairs about the terminology, I think being an indie developer implies that you're releasing a game through legitimate platforms while following the rules of modern game submission. Being an indie developer means that you're respecting the guidelines of the ESRB, making sure you aren't infringing on copyright, and overall making sure you are responsible for anything that comes about due to your game's contents.

Being a homebrew developer implies that you are releasing a game through a more underground pipeline that doesn't need to adhere to the rules. You're aware that you aren't going to be making the next big thing, and that it's just for fun. If homebrew developers are becoming so concerned that their game is good enough that it could be "overshadowed" through these pipelines, then it implies they have real confidence in their game. If this is the case, then they should become an actual indie developer and release their game through legitimate means.

I feel like this is part of where the clash of terms comes from, because there's a clash of ideals between being a cool underground rebel, and being a proper indie that follows the rules. I can't speak for everyone, and I'm sure it's not the case 100% of the time, but I think that's where a lot of the argument comes from.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,090]

11 hours ago, Ferris Bueller said:

Man, you gots to chill. It's happening. And once again, we've been limited to coder. If you don't code, you're not a part of it.

I was wondering because fcgamer's entire argument about rethinking homebrew hinges upon it.  If no one in the world was doing it full time as their day job and it was a "side project" or hobby for people that just happened to also make a couple of bucks, then the term "homebrew" would pretty much still fit in all cases and this topic and thread would be moot.  But it looks like there are indeed people out there living off of the creation of new games for older consoles, meaning that a "rethinking" of the whole concept of homebrew is definitely something worth discussing, which I'll admit does come as a big surprise to me...

[fcgamer | 4,729]

11 hours ago, SailingWiimote said:

I think the core difference between modern day homebrew for older systems and being an indie developer is that the form of homebrew we partake in these days is technically not legal. 

???

[Gloves | 11,794]

11 hours ago, SailingWiimote said:

I enjoy homebrew because cool things come from it, so don't take what I'm about to say the wrong way as if I'm condemning the concept. I think the core difference between modern day homebrew for older systems and being an indie developer is that the form of homebrew we partake in these days is technically not legal. The difference between the example of old PC game shareware is that it was free. Homebrew devs we see around places like this tend to charge money for it, which is where they could end up in trouble over it at some point.

If you had to split hairs about the terminology, I think being an indie developer implies that you're releasing a game through legitimate platforms while following the rules of modern game submission. Being an indie developer means that you're respecting the guidelines of the ESRB, making sure you aren't infringing on copyright, and overall making sure you are responsible for anything that comes about due to your game's contents.

Being a homebrew developer implies that you are releasing a game through a more underground pipeline that doesn't need to adhere to the rules. You're aware that you aren't going to be making the next big thing, and that it's just for fun. If homebrew developers are becoming so concerned that their game is good enough that it could be "overshadowed" through these pipelines, then it implies they have real confidence in their game. If this is the case, then they should become an actual indie developer and release their game through legitimate means.

I feel like this is part of where the clash of terms comes from, because there's a clash of ideals between being a cool underground rebel, and being a proper indie that follows the rules. I can't speak for everyone, and I'm sure it's not the case 100% of the time, but I think that's where a lot of the argument comes from.

There's nothing illegal about releasing homebrew games, save for those which infringe upon copyrights (which the vast majority do not). 

[erac | 78]

I think he may mean the official devkits and the like, the use of which would indeed be illegal. N64, DC and Saturn are places where some homebrew still uses such illegal code, older platforms don't really bother anymore, and even on those three it's getting rarer.