When is a variant its own game?

[Code Monkey | 2,012]

I'm curious how different a game needs to be in order to no longer be a variant. What exactly is the requirement?

 

Possibility 1 - the code on the cartridge is different

• If this is the only requirement, then The Legend Of Zelda: Ocarina Of Time versions 1.0 and 1.1 would be different games.

 

Possibility 2 - the artwork is different

• There are some NES games that have major artwork changes halfway through their life but the game is unchanged. One such example is Hollywood Squares.

 

Possibility 3 - the title is different

• Indiana Jones And The Last Crusade on NES was released by Taito and Ubisoft but this isn't just a label change, they're 2 completely different games. How can they be variants if they're completely different?

 

Possibility 4 - the license code is different

• I'm talking about the code that appears on the inside box flap, front of the manual and front label of the cartridge. These are provided by Nintendo for each different game that applies for a license. If this is the requirement then what about games that had a change to this code? Batman: Return Of The Joker on NES made a mistake in their code and initially the boxes were printed with NES-48-USA but later changed to the correct NES-P48-USA.

 

Possibility 5 - all of the above

• What about games that were different between regions like Contra and Probotector? Alex DeMeo's Race America and Corvette ZR1 Challenge? Kiwi Kraze and The New Zealand Story?

 

All of this leads into my main question about World Class Track Meet and Stadium Events. I initially argued these were definitely 2 different games but now I'm not so sure. Are they different games? Because of which specific requirement? What's the rule? Or is Stadium Events just a variant?

[Gloves | 11,824]

I will only say that I don't think anyone considers the two Last Crusade games as variants, they're 100% different games and I don't think that's ever been in question.

It's noteworthy that the Ubisoft game is a port of the "The Action Game" computer game, which had a counterpart "The Graphic Adventure".

[Ankos | 458]

I think it would have to go beyond having a different title. Games often have names that are not perfectly 1:1 between their Japanese and American releases, so just going off of titles would not be enough. Games can also have multiple versions with graphical differences, like Revenge of Shinobi, or even gameplay differences when you consider games that had addition releases that fixed bugs.

I would say that instead of asking what is different ask why the difference occurred. Is it just a translation thing, a bug patch, or censorship but the game is mostly left in tact? In that case it does not appear that the game was meant to be viewed as a new game. Is the game rebranded, possibly to become part of a different series (like SMB2 USA)? Then maybe it could be called a new game. Remember that thread on whether or not the NES and Famicom are different consoles? If you say no to that, then I don't think rebranding should be enough for you to say something is more than a variant

[Hammerfestus | 3,881]

The only one is #3.  Different games are different games when they are different games.

[phart010 | 1,708]

I think a distinction needs to be made between a variant and a version.

I think a variant happens when they want to make more quantity of the same game and there happens to be some subtle unannounced difference that some people detect only after careful study. Such as the little codes on chips and rev codes on labels/manuals/boxes

Things like regional variations are probably more appropriately called versions. Like English version, Japanese version, etc. Also Greatest Hits is probably also a version. Because if you look at the packaging it is deliberately different, sometimes artwork  is totally changed and even new features are often advertised 
 

Edited January 28, 2023 by phart010

[phart010 | 1,708]

@Code MonkeyI think the question you meant to ask is:

At what point do changes in a game make it a new game?

[Tulpa | 3,532]

9 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

All of this leads into my main question about World Class Track Meet and Stadium Events. I initially argued these were definitely 2 different games but now I'm not so sure. Are they different games? Because of which specific requirement? What's the rule? Or is Stadium Events just a variant?

"Variant" suggests the game that comes after varies from the original, so SE is the original and WCTM would be the variant.

Of course, this only comes up because of the massive price differential between the two and people want any excuse to claim a full set without spending $20,000 or more on SE, so they want to claim WCTM as the same game. If they were both $8 games, everyone would readily buy both and not bat an eye.

But hey, if WCTM is a variant and the same game, feel free to exclude that one and pick up the original (after put in a second mortgage.)

[Code Monkey | 2,012]

30 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

"Variant" suggests the game that comes after varies from the original, so SE is the original and WCTM would be the variant.

Of course, this only comes up because of the massive price differential between the two and people want any excuse to claim a full set without spending $20,000 or more on SE, so they want to claim WCTM as the same game. If they were both $8 games, everyone would readily buy both and not bat an eye.

But hey, if WCTM is a variant and the same game, feel free to exclude that one and pick up the original (after put in a second mortgage.)

The money to buy it isn't a problem, I'm writing a collection tracker application and I'm wondering how to categorize these. Are The New Zealand Story (PAL) and Kiwi Kraze (NTSC) different games or different versions? Same with Stadium Events and World Class Track Meet.

[Link | 2,726]

10 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

Possibility 2 - the artwork is different

• There are some NES games that have major artwork changes halfway through their life but the game is unchanged. One such example is Hollywood Squares.

 

You really went with Hollywood Squares when there's Metroid and Punch-Out?

[Tulpa | 3,532]

25 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

The money to buy it isn't a problem, I'm writing a collection tracker application and I'm wondering how to categorize these.

I'm saying that's why some people are desperate to exclude Stadium Events. They're not arguing from a classification standpoint, but a money standpoint. If they were both cheap games, there wouldn't be a huge argument. They'd buy both of them. To me, they're separate games, but to others, they're variants of the same game.

 

Honestly, it really depends on where you personally want to draw the line. NES games have so many weird quirks that the 30+ years of collecting still hasn't resolved them to any recognized consensus. People just roll with the exceptions. I know you like to be precise, but honestly, it'll come down to how you want to classify them, as you'll get dozens of different interpretations from us collecting proletariats.

I usually go by unique enough code to change the presentation, but then there's always maddening exceptions: The two Untouchables variants have different title screens, but most people count them as one. Caltron/Myriad have the exact same code, but most people count them separately.

*shrug*

 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Tulpa

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

2 hours ago, Link said:

You really went with Hollywood Squares when there's Metroid and Punch-Out?

...there's a legitimate Hollywood Squares variant?  What's that look like?  After seeing this, I spent 10-15 minutes combing the internet and couldn't come up with a single photo of a different looking Hollywood Squares NES cart.

2 hours ago, Tulpa said:

I'm saying that's why some people are desperate to exclude Stadium Events. They're not arguing from a classification standpoint, but a money standpoint. If they were both cheap games, there wouldn't be a huge argument. They'd buy both of them. To me, they're separate games, but to others, they're variants of the same game.

If they were both cheap games, the debate would continue, but it would be considered more academic versus the "us versus them" (having Stadium Events versus not having it) framing that it's taken on the more expensive that game gets and the more time passes.

[Tulpa | 3,532]

1 hour ago, darkchylde28 said:

If they were both cheap games, the debate would continue, but it would be considered more academic versus the "us versus them" (having Stadium Events versus not having it) framing that it's taken on the more expensive that game gets and the more time passes.

Sure, but it were $5, you know everyone would shell out for both "just in case."

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

2 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

Sure, but it were $5, you know everyone would shell out for both "just in case."

Oh, absolutely, I'm just saying that ease of access wouldn't kill the debate, as most of the actual deep thinkers on both sides of the topic would still be batting it back and forth.  You'd silence the people who only want SE removed due to how insanely expensive it's gotten, but most of the same people talking about whether it's reallya different game or not would still be talking about it, as I don't know that a consensus will ever be reached on that topic.

[WhyNotZoidberg | 586]

When it’s Super Mario Bros. 2

[inasuma | 1,203]

14 hours ago, Hammerfestus said:

The only one is #3.  Different games are different games when they are different games.

Makes me wonder about games like Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury. It is quite literally the same game, plus some content. Definitely not a new game, but contains a new isolated piece of content, and is obviously a brand new product, but the majority of the content isn't different.

But I tend to agree if the title changes then it's a different game, or the majority of content has changed in such a way that it just isn't comparable.

[phart010 | 1,708]

9 hours ago, Tulpa said:

I'm saying that's why some people are desperate to exclude Stadium Events. They're not arguing from a classification standpoint, but a money standpoint. If they were both cheap games, there wouldn't be a huge argument. They'd buy both of them. To me, they're separate games, but to others, they're variants of the same game.

You could even argue they’re both different games but still not require SE because isn’t part of the full set since it’s not a retail release

[Tulpa | 3,532]

4 minutes ago, phart010 said:

You could even argue they’re both different games but still not require SE because isn’t part of the full set since it’s not a retail release

You know, one of these days your pot stirring is going to bring out the angry mob and pitchforks.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

Im just here for the hollywood squares variant

[Tulpa | 3,532]

Hollywood Squares has a box variant apparently. There's a black box and a blue box. Cartridge is the same art as the blue box in both as far as I can tell.

 

 

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,017]

Hollywood Squares is obviously the same game but a variant. Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury has to be its own game since it contains another game on the cart and it's on a different system. Like NSMBU is different than NSLU and they're both separate titles from NSMBU + NSLU compilation disc. Just because they share some content it doesn't make them the same game.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

Oh its just a box variant? 

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

Isn't a "variant" a type of person who wears boxers over his underwear, but still wears brown pants just in case he finds a super-rare game for a super-low price?

No... Wait.

That is one version of a HA auction buyer who was smart enough to wear that while he prepared himself for what a non-reality TV buyer will offer for that Wata graded 9.8 A++ Super Mario 64.

- Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy VII (Greatest Hits) are variants.
- Final Fantasy VII (NA) and Final Fantasy VII International (JPN) are versions.

Plus, I guess a "variant being its own game" is when a region turns it into its own game (ex. FC's Dragon Quest vs NES's Dragon Warrior). Or just when the publisher decides to be lazy by adding "Remake" to the name.

Edited January 29, 2023 by FenrirZero
It's not an edit. It's a "remake" of the original response.

[WhyNotZoidberg | 586]

I’ll segue from the talk about Super Mario 3D World.

If a game is ported to a different console, it’s a port and it’s not a variant. It becomes its own game. You can’t just pop Super Mario 3D + Bowser’s Fury in a WiiU.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

1 hour ago, WhyNotZoidberg said:

You can’t just pop Super Mario 3D + Bowser’s Fury in a WiiU.

Well...you can, it's just not going to go well for anybody, nor make them very happy with what happens after that point. 

[twiztor | 855]

the SM3DW Switch release is not all that different than when "Game of the Year" rereleases would hit with the DLC content being on the disc. do those count as separate games too then?

i'm not a full set collector as i have no interest in owning 700 NES games (sometimes the ~200 i own is too many already!). but to me, Stadium Events is a variant. if the only difference is the label and title screen, i wouldn't be interested in owning 2 copies of that game.