Decoupling the NES from the Famicom

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

21 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Code sharing was pretty big back then.  I'm sure there's some submissions posted in some contemporary Famicom magazines.  The odds of a tape with a game on it seeing the light of day is exceedingly rare, due to factors like media degradation and the fact that Satoru's little brother may have overwrote the tape when they recorded their favorite song off the radio. 

Well, I mean, that's all possible, but there were plenty of actual home computers of the era that used cassette tapes for media storage, and so far as I know, none of those have the issue of NONE of their homemade tape programs from anyone showing up in the current era.  It's all well and good to say, "Oh, well, people wouldn't have cared and probably lost, discarded, or taped over them," but in the light of the Famicom being an "actual computer," it paints a totally different picture to me since a total lack of homemade software on tape still existing is the exact opposite of every other system of the era.  And with the Famicom's install base being so much larger than a lot of cheap home computers of the day, it just seems even more ridiculous that none of it has survived or surfaced by now.  The fact that Nintendo didn't publish any such titles beyond what was packed in with their tape recorder really tells the tale of what was going on there.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,329]

18 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Well, I mean, that's all possible, but there were plenty of actual home computers of the era that used cassette tapes for media storage, and so far as I know, none of those have the issue of NONE of their homemade tape programs from anyone showing up in the current era.  It's all well and good to say, "Oh, well, people wouldn't have cared and probably lost, discarded, or taped over them," but in the light of the Famicom being an "actual computer," it paints a totally different picture to me since a total lack of homemade software on tape still existing is the exact opposite of every other system of the era.  And with the Famicom's install base being so much larger than a lot of cheap home computers of the day, it just seems even more ridiculous that none of it has survived or surfaced by now.  The fact that Nintendo didn't publish any such titles beyond what was packed in with their tape recorder really tells the tale of what was going on there.

The install base may have been huge, but the number of Family Basic units out there is much more limited.  Add in the fact that the tape deck is also fairly tough to come by and it stands to reason that there simply weren't that many tapes with data on them to begin with.  I'm betting many users just reinput their code every time.  Many BASIC programs weren't very large, and while tedious, little Jimmy's parents didn't have to shell out for yet another pricey add on for his game system.  It could just be that simple - you can't find something if there's nothing to find.

[Tulpa | 3,575]

59 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Injecting a bit of obvious levity doesn't hurt. 

As someone whose comedy is so legendary to the point that I often must hold back lest you mere mortals explode from uncontrolled hysterics, I would recommend they add a few more tells to their "obvious levity."

Some of their posts aren't so straightforward, and just add confusion rather than comedy.

Speaking as a renown comedy master, of course.

[Tulpa | 3,575]

30 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Well, I mean, that's all possible, but there were plenty of actual home computers of the era that used cassette tapes for media storage, and so far as I know, none of those have the issue of NONE of their homemade tape programs from anyone showing up in the current era.  It's all well and good to say, "Oh, well, people wouldn't have cared and probably lost, discarded, or taped over them," but in the light of the Famicom being an "actual computer," it paints a totally different picture to me since a total lack of homemade software on tape still existing is the exact opposite of every other system of the era.  And with the Famicom's install base being so much larger than a lot of cheap home computers of the day, it just seems even more ridiculous that none of it has survived or surfaced by now.  The fact that Nintendo didn't publish any such titles beyond what was packed in with their tape recorder really tells the tale of what was going on there.

 

7 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

The install base may have been huge, but the number of Family Basic units out there is much more limited.  Add in the fact that the tape deck is also fairly tough to come by and it stands to reason that there simply weren't that many tapes with data on them to begin with.  I'm betting many users just reinput their code every time.  Many BASIC programs weren't very large, and while tedious, little Jimmy's parents didn't have to shell out for yet another pricey add on for his game system.  It could just be that simple - you can't find something if there's nothing to find.

I think both the NES and Famicom had potential for "computer" programs, at least in the sense of software beyond video games. Miracle Piano was the obvious one for NES, but the Minnesota Lottery Cart also suggested that very rudimentary software could be utilized.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Tulpa

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

This entire thread is a nonsense troll thread. Anybody posting in this that thinks the majority of the people here are taking this seriously, is getting trolled. It’s 12 pages of semantics over peoples opinions on a 40 yr old console. 99.9999999999% of people on this earth don’t care whether we “decouple” the Famicom from the NES, and 99% of retro video game nerds, that actually do care about games, still dont care about how a guy from PA who now lives in Taiwan thinks about the whole thing. 
 

congratulations, you played yourselves.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

2 hours ago, the_wizard_666 said:

The install base may have been huge, but the number of Family Basic units out there is much more limited.  Add in the fact that the tape deck is also fairly tough to come by and it stands to reason that there simply weren't that many tapes with data on them to begin with.  I'm betting many users just reinput their code every time.  Many BASIC programs weren't very large, and while tedious, little Jimmy's parents didn't have to shell out for yet another pricey add on for his game system.  It could just be that simple - you can't find something if there's nothing to find.

Oh, I know, and I agree.  I was just being a bit of an ass to further the point that the "Family Computer," as released, wasn't ever really intended to be a computer at all, but a game machine that they could throw extra add-ons out into the market for, and, copying Mattel's Intellivision, promising a computer module to stir some imaginations in that market segment.  The facts that the sole "computer" module for the system didn't launch for nearly a year afterward and that there was zero software actually distributed for it beyond a few demos included with the sole means of backing up or loading data with it (the Family Data Recorder) paint a very different picture of what Nintendo actually intended.  The zero examples of people having saved their own programs to tape and kept them alongside their immaculately preserved, boxed copies of Family Basic, the Family Data Recorder, etc., speaks to how few people actually tried to use the Famicom as an actual computer.

There was no end to third party titles published for the Famicom, so why absolutely no support from anyone other than Nintendo for the "computer" module, despite many of those same developers releasing titles for "competing" machines such as the PC-8800/9800, FM-7/8, X1 series, etc.?  Because the Famicom wasn't a computer, and was never really intended to be one.  It just happened to have a clever name and a sad add-on that had a keyboard and allowed you to play in BASIC, but couldn't hold a candle to even the most garbage of actual low-end computers of the day in regard to doing actual computer things past playing games.  I would proudly display a Timex Sinclair 1000 in a "computer" spot in my home long before I would do so for the Famicom, and that's coming from someone who's loved the system since his first exposure to it.

It's possible Nintendo originally intended the Famicom to be a full fledged computer when they first conceived of the idea, but by the time they started development, engineering, etc., it had become something totally different, and so far apart from computers of the day as to be unrecognizable as one.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

Okay, here's something interesting.  This "article" has zero sources and is from a random "e-newsletter" site, but the linked post from ~5 years ago talks about how both @Tanooki and I may both be kind of right.

If the article is accurate (which is really hard to say beyond personal biases since there's zero sources cited), the Family Computer was originally conceived as the "Game Computer" or "GameCom" and was supposed to be a 16-bit system, as well as have a keyboard and floppy disk drive included.  However, due to Japanese people referring to personal computers as "pasokon" (which seems to translate to "computer," so it seems like there's some nuance there that's lost on non-Japanese speakers), and the console was meant to be for the whole family, they changed the name to "Family Computer."

What came out the other side of development, however, seems to be the revised name that they came up for the system, plus the "Game" part of the original name which inferred that it was supposed to be primarily for playing games.  It talks about accessories that never made it to the US, including the Famicom Disk System, as well as Family Basic.  In regard to Family Basic, it adds it "used the BASIC programming language for users to program their own games with," seeming to put a nail in the coffin to the idea that it was intended to actually flesh out the game console into an actual personal computer.

So, make of that what you will.  But, don't pick and choose which bits to repeat based on one's own narrative, as there's zero citations as to where that information came from (including, potentially, the author's own imagination), so as it is, we can either take all of these ideas at face value, or none of them.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,101]

32 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

This entire thread is a nonsense troll thread. Anybody posting in this that thinks the majority of the people here are taking this seriously, is getting trolled. It’s 12 pages of semantics over peoples opinions on a 40 yr old console. 99.9999999999% of people on this earth don’t care whether we “decouple” the Famicom from the NES, and 99% of retro video game nerds, that actually do care about games, still dont care about how a guy from PA who now lives in Taiwan thinks about the whole thing.

Imagine if you had seen Dave doing this for over twenty years.......

[guitarzombie | 929]

35 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

This entire thread is a nonsense troll thread. Anybody posting in this that thinks the majority of the people here are taking this seriously, is getting trolled. It’s 12 pages of semantics over peoples opinions on a 40 yr old console. 99.9999999999% of people on this earth don’t care whether we “decouple” the Famicom from the NES, and 99% of retro video game nerds, that actually do care about games, still dont care about how a guy from PA who now lives in Taiwan thinks about the whole thing. 
 

congratulations, you played yourselves.

[phart010 | 1,711]

35 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

This entire thread is a nonsense troll thread. Anybody posting in this that thinks the majority of the people here are taking this seriously, is getting trolled. It’s 12 pages of semantics over peoples opinions on a 40 yr old console. 99.9999999999% of people on this earth don’t care whether we “decouple” the Famicom from the NES, and 99% of retro video game nerds, that actually do care about games, still dont care about how a guy from PA who now lives in Taiwan thinks about the whole thing. 
 

congratulations, you played yourselves.

I care 

[Dr. Morbis | 2,101]

25 minutes ago, phart010 said:

I care 

Reported...

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

1 hour ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Imagine if you had seen Dave doing this for over twenty years.......

Not 20, but a solid decade for me.

 

57 minutes ago, phart010 said:

I care 

I know, and so does Darkchylde. Thats why I feel bad, as some people are having a legit misplaced argument in bad faith. 
 

I wish it would have been a thread where the question was raised differently from the get go. Tulpa immediately poked a logical realistic hole in the original “point” of the thread (Famicom > NES because of OP opinion) and then it was off the rails from there.  In the end none of this matters anyways, so let me leave this message for future search engine users that end up here: 

I, Myself, MrWunderful, hereby say (with the full force of my personal internet opinion): 

Famicom=NES. 

If you made it this far, 12 pages deep, Im never gonna give you up. Promise. 

Edited January 12, 2023 by MrWunderful

[phart010 | 1,711]

1 hour ago, darkchylde28 said:

It's possible Nintendo originally intended the Famicom to be a full fledged computer when they first conceived of the idea, but by the time they started development, engineering, etc., it had become something totally different, and so far apart from computers of the day as to be unrecognizable as one.

Yea it seems stuff gets used for other than it’s intended purpose and then the industry adapts to be more in line with the market:

 

 

  Warning this ad (hidden below) is VERY politically incorrect by todays standards. I was almost going to not post it, but it’s almost unbelievable until you actually see it. We can learn from history… If you choose to unhide, please don’t yap at me. 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

If you had “

Spoiler

doucheing with lysol because you don’t bang your husband enough

” being brought up in this famicom vs NES thread on forum bingo, you hit the jackpot

Edited January 12, 2023 by MrWunderful

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

10 minutes ago, phart010 said:

Yea it seems stuff gets used for other than it’s intended purpose and then the industry adapts to be more in line with the market:

I agree, although I think there's a difference here with the Famicom, as it wasn't that it was put out "as a computer" and got used as a gaming console, but it was apparently only first conceptualized as a computer, and then developed, engineered, etc., as a gaming console, which it was used as.  And that's only if that random, no source "e-newsletter" I stumbled across is right.  If they'd included a keyboard and disk drive in the box and people still only booted up game cartridges on the Famicom, you'd be right on the money, but as it was released, it's used as intended.  If there are/were any PR ads from Japan talking about how the Famicom will be the answer to all a family's personal computing needs, I've thus far been unable to find them, and thus still believe that by the time they were ready to market and ship the thing, it only had "computer" remaining in its name and nowhere else, as it's clearly just a gaming console that happened to have a bad "computer" add-on released later on.

[phart010 | 1,711]

1 minute ago, darkchylde28 said:

I agree, although I think there's a difference here with the Famicom, as it wasn't that it was put out "as a computer" and got used as a gaming console, but it was apparently only first conceptualized as a computer, and then developed, engineered, etc., as a gaming console, which it was used as.  And that's only if that random, no source "e-newsletter" I stumbled across is right.  If they'd included a keyboard and disk drive in the box and people still only booted up game cartridges on the Famicom, you'd be right on the money, but as it was released, it's used as intended.  If there are/were any PR ads from Japan talking about how the Famicom will be the answer to all a family's personal computing needs, I've thus far been unable to find them, and thus still believe that by the time they were ready to market and ship the thing, it only had "computer" remaining in its name and nowhere else, as it's clearly just a gaming console that happened to have a bad "computer" add-on released later on.

I’ve already exhausted my thoughts on this. At this point any responses I might have would be reiterating things I’ve already said previously.
 

I can respect your passion, but I disagree with your points. I am happy enough knowing that all of your thoughts on the topic as well as mine have been expressed. 

[phart010 | 1,711]

Also, I am not married to my current opinion. I can change my mind if there’s better info available 

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

1 minute ago, phart010 said:

I’ve already exhausted my thoughts on this. At this point any responses I might have would be reiterating things I’ve already said previously.

I can respect your passion, but I disagree with your points. I am happy enough knowing that all of your thoughts on the topic as well as mine have been expressed. 

Understood.  Please realize, though, per Tulpa's heavy handed hinting above, it's hard to tell where you yanking people's chains to sow discord and spur debate end and your actual thoughts on the matter begin.

From all the back and forth that I've read, the sole factual reason behind the folks that say the Family Computer was always a "computer" is because it was named that and had a single BASIC cartridge that came out a year after it launched.

The reasons why it shouldn't be considered a computer boil down to it not actually doing any computer things beyond having a single BASIC cartridge that came out a year after launch, and nothing but games with that.

If there's no more facts to add in either camp, I'd say we're at a point where you and I respectfully agree to disagree.

[phart010 | 1,711]

30 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Understood.  Please realize, though, per Tulpa's heavy handed hinting above, it's hard to tell where you yanking people's chains to sow discord and spur debate end and your actual thoughts on the matter begin.

From all the back and forth that I've read, the sole factual reason behind the folks that say the Family Computer was always a "computer" is because it was named that and had a single BASIC cartridge that came out a year after it launched.

The reasons why it shouldn't be considered a computer boil down to it not actually doing any computer things beyond having a single BASIC cartridge that came out a year after launch, and nothing but games with that.

If there's no more facts to add in either camp, I'd say we're at a point where you and I respectfully agree to disagree.

Sorry for the confusion. But ya know… this is a video game discussion forum and our mascot is a purple wizard with video game buttons on his face…

Edited January 12, 2023 by phart010

[fcgamer | 4,797]

@darkchylde28 @Tanooki @the_wizard_666@phart010 Sorry if I missed others who have been following:

Regarding the Family Basic (and I say this in a serious, non trolling manner):

a. There were at least two versions of the program, I've heard that there a version 2 as well, but that it is unmarked.

b. The computer magazines at the time used to print lines of code that reader submitted for FB homebrew. There is quite a bit that has been translated and reprinted.

Why do you guys think I was trying to get my keyboard working? I wanted to enter the code line by line and save it to the cassette tapes I bought, like people were doing back in the day.

The disk system also had quite a bit of underground hobbyist homebrew/hacks back in the day.

FInally something else entirely, but Study Box runs cassette tapes on a Famicom:

https://www.nesworld.com/article.php?system=nes&data=fc-studybox

The company Benesse, I know of them, they also did a machine that "is" yet "isn't" a wonderswan, likely in a very similar situation as the Famicom/NES.

 

[fcgamer | 4,797]

5 hours ago, darkchylde28 said:

From all the back and forth that I've read, the sole factual reason behind the folks that say the Family Computer was always a "computer" is because it was named that and had a single BASIC cartridge that came out a year after it launched.

There were several FB carts.

[Gaia Gensouki | 1,079]

Spot the difference:

Jokes on you, there is none! The DS has internet AND a keyboard, so it's a proper computer!

These arguments about NES and the Famicom being entirely different things just because of some hardware add-ons is a complete joke and I hope it gets obvious with this comparison. I feel like a lot of good and objective arguments have been brought forth on why at the very least the NES and Famicom are the same machine and why just marketing something differently in different markets doesn't change a thing about the object at hand! At this point it really feels a bit like wanting to have a dissenting opinion just to be different/go against the crowd.

[phart010 | 1,711]

Ok, since my points don’t seem to be taken seriously, I will restate them here comprehensively:

1. The product is called “Family Computer” (yes - @darkchylde28presented unverified information from an unidentified source that said it may have been planned to be called Gamecom, but what value is such information without some level of authentication?). Family computer implies it has different uses for different members of the family. For kids it has games. For adults, may have other purposes.

2. Failure to include a keyboard at launch doesn’t mean it’s not a computer. Lots of computers today don’t come with keyboards. At launch, maybe there was no software justification for including a keyboard. But they included an accessory port (which resembles a computer accessory port). And the eventual keyboard did connect to this. And as @darkchylde28referenced from the smart folks at NESDev, it is possible to engineer a custom RS232 communication cable for this port. 

3. As many know, products are often rushed to market without the full feature set being ready on day one.. for example lots of video games are shipped incomplete only to get the full feature set and bugfixes pushed out at a later date. Today we have over the air updates, but in the past the way they did this is they would make things modular so that they could ship to future expansions. There is at least one piece of evidence that indicates Famicom may have been rushed out to market - the initial batch of systems had faulty chips in them and had to be recalled. It’s possible that computer-like features were planned to come after initial release.

4. The fact that computer-like features never came in the vastness we would expect for a computer product has no bearing on what the original intent for the product was. As indicated earlier, products often go to market but then are used by the consumer for a totally different reason than they were originally intended for. If Nintendo noticed that people seemed mostly interested in Famicom for playing video games, then naturally they would focus their attention on the video games aspect of it.

5. Famicom disk system doesn’t work in conjunction with Basic. Doesn’t matter. By the time that FDS was ready for release, they had already identified the target demographic for the product was people that want to play games. So it was not necessary at this point to make it work with Basic.. Again, it’s still a Family computer, people just aren’t using it for computing and because of this, Nintendo is no longer developing computer-like features for it 

Edited January 12, 2023 by phart010

[phart010 | 1,711]

The fact that so many companies make Collectors editions of games would lead some to believe that video games are made to be collected. Wrong! Video were originally made to be played.

The consumer began to collect video games. Then the industry took note of this change in consumer behavior and they catered to it. As a result, now we have Wata putting games in prison for life and even Nintendo making non-playable collectors editions of games such as Fire Emblem Shadow Dragon.

This doesn’t change the fact that video games were initially intended to be played

[fcgamer | 4,797]

6. Nintendo released a revised version of Family Basic later, Family Basic III. All the while code was being shared in computer magazines for software.