Developer following a huge stinker with a classic

[Sumez | 2,989]

It's funny how quickly people forget what a massive smash hit Demon's Souls was. 

[Reed Rothchild | 9,579]

1 hour ago, Sumez said:

Some of their earliest games were still great though. Janky? sure. But the King's Field games are fantastic IMO, and even though I'm not a big Armored Core fan, that series has a pretty religious following!

Ninja Blade to Demons Souls is quite the jump though 

(I haven't played NB, I've just seen the IP vid)

 

[cj_robot | 546]

5 hours ago, Sumez said:

Some of their earliest games were still great though. Janky? sure. But the King's Field games are fantastic IMO, and even though I'm not a big Armored Core fan, that series has a pretty religious following!

Yeah, I am actually also one who can appreciate a lot of their older stuff. Weirdly, I didn't really take to any of the "Souls" games, though. But the truth is that almost every game they put out got pretty mediocre review scores. I was honestly shocked when Demon's Souls was so universally praised when it came out.

[Tanooki | 4,950]

18 hours ago, Sumez said:

Sure, but it was in response ot the thing about the franchise's start, and the first NES game was the third game in the series  It's also a much more competent and playable game, but I agree it's way too basic.

I also think if you compare Bomberman and Bomberman 2 on NES, you have to at least consider that three other Bomberman games were released inbetween those two, all of them better than both of them.
In fact I thought Bomberman 2 was pretty weird in how barebones it is. It doesn't introduce any of the things you're alluding to, since those are all carried over from the first PC Engine game - yet they didn't include any boss fights or stage gimmicks, so it feels like a pretty big step back given the time it came out. They also somehow managed to screw up the controls despite absolutely perfecting that on PC Engine.
Overall it feels more like a vague update to the first NES game, and was quite a disappointment to me. Bomberman '93 was the next major installment trying to move the series forward.

Perhaps, but a franchise start is relative.  What you showed, most people have never had one of those or access to it outside of emulation.  The NES really was where Bomberman was the first game for the vast majority of gamers and most would think is the first which entirely unfair really.

[Sumez | 2,989]

So basically the rule is "a franchise starts whereever you feel like it serves your narrative"?

The first Bomberman game was ported to six different platforms, I don't think its accessibility was particularly limited! No, the reason it never got any real attention was that it's a shit game, and Hudson didn't really get it together until the first NES game - it was the whole subject of this thread!

Few people had access to a Street Fighter 1 cabinet either, so does that franchise start with SF2? I mean I can see the arguments why, honestly - but it's not really what we are talking about.  

[Tanooki | 4,950]

Yes that's about it, whatever fits the narrative works.  Some obscure bullshit computer most have never heard of or seen is more or less irrelevant.  In gaming, it's about the mass market when you want to compare something so it makes sense to most.  And yes I'm being snarky, but let's be realistic here, that 1983 release had no hopes of going anywhere when it was stuck on a bunch of largely low rent, and all Japanese only computer systems that wouldn't escape the islands.  Even the developers knew that much which is why the stuff that surely had a chance, it got stuffed on something that went wider, in this case, the Famicom (and later NES.)  Ask enough bomberman fans, you might find a few that realize it was on some obscure NEC PCXXX or Sharp this or that, but most would say Nintendo so it was a fair comparison.

[Strange | 1,700]

Final Fantasy following the various stuff Square did prior

[WhyNotZoidberg | 586]

12 hours ago, Strange said:

Final Fantasy following the various stuff Square did prior

Seriously? I thought Rad Racer was pretty solid.

 

Ladies and gents allow me to present the most unholy champion of this caregory: Naughty Dog.

 

From a half-playable MK clone featuring staff, friends and roommates dressed up with stuff they found in their parents’ wardrobes. On a failed system (and the game is like the 3rd of 4th best fighter on the system but that’s a differ conversation)

 

To a beloved classic that we still recognize to this day, and which remained entirely enjoyable almost 30 years after its release.

[wongojack | 220]

On 1/3/2023 at 4:35 PM, wongojack said:

Uncharted was kinda like this.  While Uncharted was a success, if they had never made Uncharted 2, there is no way that franchise would be known the way it is.

I started thinking about game studios and oftentimes the second game a studio produces is a hit.  Bullfrog games comes to mind.  Their first game is forgotten, but their second game was Populous which was simply massive.  Insomniac is this way too.  Their first game was called Disruptor, but their second game was Spyro the Dragon.  In both cases, the first game was not necessarily a flop, but what followed it was so massive that it fits the thread.  In fact, Naughty Dog (makers of Uncharted) kinda did this too.  Their first games were sorta forgettable (Rings of Power and Way of the Warrior), but then they made Crash Bandicoot!

 

1 hour ago, WhyNotZoidberg said:

Ladies and gents allow me to present the most unholy champion of this caregory: Naughty Dog.

 

You left out Uncharted

[WhyNotZoidberg | 586]

1 hour ago, wongojack said:

 

You left out Uncharted

Sure they went on to do that, but this is this is to show Crash Bandicoot is the game that came directly after Way of the Warrior. Stinker, classic.

 

[koifish | 561]

On 1/3/2023 at 7:48 AM, Reed Rothchild said:

Many people would say Assassin's Creed.

Good one, I totally forgot about that series. I remember friends and I roundly mocked the first game as "Assassins Can't Swim" only to sit around watching the other play Asscreed 2 and reviewing Renaissance history.

Personally, I would also add Lost Planet 2 to this list. The first game, Extreme Condition, feels like a beta test of the second, in my opinion. I will say, however, that I wish that Lost Planet 2 had kept as much of a focus on monster fighting. 2 was pretty heavy on the use of human soldier opponents, which wasn't always as fun or as satisfying as blowing monsters away.

 

[Nintegageo | 582]

Sales-wise, would Mega Man count?

[ThePhleo | 2,185]

On 1/3/2023 at 10:32 AM, RH said:

Here's a question-- is there a franchise that started this way.  Street Fighter was a great example.  I can't think of another one at the moment, but in the recesses of my brain, I feel like there's at least  one or two other series that started with either a "meh" or a bust, but took off with the second game.

I'm not sure it counts but Duke Nukem 1 & 2 &  3, at least to me, were known for there shareware level.  Did any of you guys buy the full versions of those games?  I won't say they were bad, but I always felt they were simply good, shareware distractions.  And then Duke Nukem 3D dropped and I felt it perfected what was 3D FPS at that time.  It's not the same as what we're discussing, but I'd say it made quite a leap.  It would have been a 10 of 10 to me back then, where Duke Nukem 1 and might have gotten a rating of a 4-5 in my book.

Wolfenstein, and Ultima come to mind.

 

Wolfenstein 3-D isn’t the first Wolfenstein, it’s actually the THIRD. The other two games are collectible for sure, but they aren’t exactly known games. (ps, Wolfenstein isn’t even the first 3D game iD made either)

Same situation with Ultima. Akalabeth is considered “Ultima 0” in the collector scene. Granted I’m just a sapling in that sector of the hobby…

[ThePhleo | 2,185]

On 1/3/2023 at 10:32 AM, RH said:

Here's a question-- is there a franchise that started this way.  Street Fighter was a great example.  I can't think of another one at the moment, but in the recesses of my brain, I feel like there's at least  one or two other series that started with either a "meh" or a bust, but took off with the second game.

I'm not sure it counts but Duke Nukem 1 & 2 &  3, at least to me, were known for there shareware level.  Did any of you guys buy the full versions of those games?  I won't say they were bad, but I always felt they were simply good, shareware distractions.  And then Duke Nukem 3D dropped and I felt it perfected what was 3D FPS at that time.  It's not the same as what we're discussing, but I'd say it made quite a leap.  It would have been a 10 of 10 to me back then, where Duke Nukem 1 and might have gotten a rating of a 4-5 in my book.

Wolfenstein, and Ultima come to mind.

 

Wolfenstein 3-D isn’t the first Wolfenstein, it’s actually the THIRD. The other two games are collectible for sure, but they aren’t exactly known games. (ps, Wolfenstein isn’t even the first 3D game iD made either)

Same situation with Ultima. Akalabeth is considered “Ultima 0” in the collector scene. Granted I’m just a sapling in that sector of the hobby…

[Tanooki | 4,950]

You can say that again, oh wait, you did.

Wolfenstein didn't start with 3D, an the game wasn't largely awesome and was a stealth title more like Metal Gear if anything, but it was good enough to inspire greatness, and same can be said about Akalabeth which is a semi-permanent freebie I believe up on GoG if anyone cares to look.

[Gaia Gensouki | 1,079]

16 hours ago, Tanooki said:

and same can be said about Akalabeth which is a semi-permanent freebie I believe up on GoG if anyone cares to look.

Though you shouldn't download the version that GoG shows first in the menu, because it is broken and won't allow you to turn in the quests, even if you've done them. This means that you won't be able to actually beat the game. So stay away from that!

Instead go to Extras and download Akalabeth 1998. That should be the properly functioning version.

This reminds me, that I actually wanted to replay and beat that game for good since the other version was completely broken, which took me way too long to realize.

[Tanooki | 4,950]

1 hour ago, Gaia Gensouki said:

Though you shouldn't download the version that GoG shows first in the menu, because it is broken and won't allow you to turn in the quests, even if you've done them. This means that you won't be able to actually beat the game. So stay away from that!

Instead go to Extras and download Akalabeth 1998. That should be the properly functioning version.

This reminds me, that I actually wanted to replay and beat that game for good since the other version was completely broken, which took me way too long to realize.

That's a good tip.  Some years ago I stopped taking their freebies unless I knew I truly would play it because I don't need a digital hoard staring at me so I know I grabbed the old one, so if it came with it, it's there.  I just don't do Ultima style stuff, doesn't quite click with me.