2022 VGS NES Weekly Contest - Post mortem

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

I'm probably not gonna play much this year in all honesty.  I'm just too busy right now, and honestly I was more interested in playing the games than actually competing in most cases.  I may play a few rounds that pique my interest, but I'm not gonna be trying for a top spot or anything.  That may change of course, but after playing most of the games last year, I just burned out by the end.  I will say that I think I preferred the single elimination system for the playoffs. I also liked most of the game choices.  I still think the genres should be reduced to Action, Puzzle, Sports, and SHMUP, as this would allow for more games per genre and less confusion between them (especially arcade vs action, that's always the worst).  Most of what I said last year would still apply now really.  

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

11 hours ago, the_wizard_666 said:

I'm probably not gonna play much this year in all honesty.  I'm just too busy right now, and honestly I was more interested in playing the games than actually competing in most cases.  I may play a few rounds that pique my interest, but I'm not gonna be trying for a top spot or anything.  That may change of course, but after playing most of the games last year, I just burned out by the end.  I will say that I think I preferred the single elimination system for the playoffs. I also liked most of the game choices.  I still think the genres should be reduced to Action, Puzzle, Sports, and SHMUP, as this would allow for more games per genre and less confusion between them (especially arcade vs action, that's always the worst).  Most of what I said last year would still apply now really.  

I like the idea of keeping the point system for the tournament so that the best overall player wins instead of the championship being determined exclusively by the final round, but I think it should go back to one game per round. It probably wouldn't hurt to try and schedule the tournament a week or two later so it doesn't run during Thanksgiving week when people are out of town or doing family activities and don't have time to play. I would have played this time except there was no way that I was going to be able to play two games at once and post competitive scores when I was going to be busy most of the week.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

On 12/30/2022 at 1:10 PM, Dr. Morbis said:

Oh, and I hate to say it, but to stimulate participation, you have to focus on the popular games that everybody owns and everybody likes; picking obscure games of questionable play value that no one owns does little to make Jo-Bob forum user decide he's going to jump into the fray and put up a score that week.  It may add diversity to the game selection, but only the small handful of hardcore regulars are going to put up a score.  On the other hand, if you do SMB or SMB3, a whole bunch of other site members suddenly come out of the woodwork.  So the question for the organizers is: do you want more game diversity or do you want more participation?

I also agree with this. We had 30-40 score per week back in 2015 and that lineup was loaded with common and popular titles. I don't think it would be the worst idea to go back to the old score based NES contests. Adding Famicom games and speedrun contests was an interesting way to switch things up, but I'm not sure that those would appeal to the player that's just interested in casually playing some NES games each week.

[PII | 1,885]

7 hours ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

On 12/30/2022 at 12:10 PM, Dr. Morbis said:

Oh, and I hate to say it, but to stimulate participation, you have to focus on the popular games that everybody owns and everybody likes; picking obscure games of questionable play value that no one owns does little to make Jo-Bob forum user decide he's going to jump into the fray and put up a score that week.  It may add diversity to the game selection, but only the small handful of hardcore regulars are going to put up a score.  On the other hand, if you do SMB or SMB3, a whole bunch of other site members suddenly come out of the woodwork.  So the question for the organizers is: do you want more game diversity or do you want more participation?

I also agree with this. We had 30-40 score per week back in 2015 and that lineup was loaded with common and popular titles. I don't think it would be the worst idea to go back to the old score based NES contests. Adding Famicom games and speedrun contests was an interesting way to switch things up, but I'm not sure that those would appeal to the player that's just interested in casually playing some NES games each week.

I'm not in disagreement with including more popular favorites, but for some reason I feel the need to put another two cents in:

If we here who typically play the NES weekly with any degree of consistency are not NES connoisseurs then no one is (except maybe our pals over at "NES Completions Thread".)  Imagine being a culinary connoisseur attending one function after another and being presented with hamburgers with mustard and ketchup, followed by hotdogs w/mustard and ketchup, followed by meatloaf w/mustard and ketchup ad infinitum and the closest thing you get to experiencing anything new or different is: scrambled eggs with Catsup.  Whoop Dee Shit.

More pop. favs. to attract the casual outliers is good, but should still be balanced with new, obscure material and unique variety of competition for maximizing the fun and experience everyone gets for taking part in a gaming competition.  It is VideGameSage after all, not VideoGameDouche.  Just sayin'.

[mbd39 | 2,020]

Accidentally posted to wrong thread. Disregard.

 

Edited January 2, 2023 by mbd39

[PII | 1,885]

@mbd39...  

Edited January 2, 2023 by PII

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

16 minutes ago, PII said:

I'm not in disagreement with including more popular favorites, but for some reason I feel the need to put another two cents in:

If we here who typically play the NES weekly with any degree of consistency are not NES connoisseurs then no one is (except maybe our pals over at "NES Completions Thread".)  Imagine being a culinary connoisseur attending one function after another and being presented with hamburgers with mustard and ketchup, followed by hotdogs w/mustard and ketchup, followed by meatloaf w/mustard and ketchup ad infinitum and the closest thing you get to experiencing anything new or different is: scrambled eggs with Catsup.  Whoop Dee Shit.

More pop. favs. to attract the casual outliers is good, but should still be balanced with new, obscure material and unique variety of competition for maximizing the fun and experience everyone gets for taking part in a gaming competition.  It is VideGameSage after all, not VideoGameDouche.  Just sayin'.

Well you, sir, are in luck because this isn't the N64, where you can count the great games on two hands; no - this is the NES, which has like 200 good games and at least 100 great games!  So even with a 32 game season of exclusively picking great games, you'd only see each game once every three years.  Just saying... 

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

That being said, I would way waaaaaay rather have diversity and obscure games, myself; but my point is that picking the obscure stuff that's either foreign or "bad" or unknown or whatever deters most non-regulars from jumping into the fray...

[PII | 1,885]

33 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Well you, sir, are in luck because this isn't the N64, where you can count the great games on two hands; no - this is the NES, which has like 200 good games and at least 100 great games!  So even with a 32 game season of exclusively picking great games, you'd only see each game once every three years.  Just saying... 

Wow, that looks like a far more conservative estimate on great NES games than I would have come up with myself!  For fun I just did a little brain jam on the game list from last year and presuming that it is representative of the total NES library, came up with a significantly larger number of great games for the total NA library of licensed + unlicensed games (you and I both know what games that does and does not entail.)  Anywho, not looking to start any rows today, just having fun thinking about NES games.  I have wider strike zone than most when it comes to 8-bits anyway...

Mainly just wanted to point out that I think the 2 views on games can be balanced out, not necessarily symmetrically.

Also, that maybe greater care should be placed on which games are chosen when it comes to the portion of lesser knowns so as to try and tailor that to appeal as much as possible to the more casual players as well.

[BeaIank | 1,618]

Fact is, I will put more known games in the schedule, but I will spare some slots for obscure, fun famicom and less known NES games too.
Can't run this without those at all.
But another option is also passing the torch of the contest if people think that will be for the best of it's future.

[Jeevan | 8,910]

@BeaIank I personally liked the old format that I originally played in.  The old score format, where I might be able to keep up with points etc.  That being said, you do a fantastic job running this and I enjoyed playing new games and finding ways to break them and whatnot. 

I won't be participating much because I just am not that good at them and have n64 to get through, but I just figured I would let you know how happy I was to have discovered some games because of the contest.  I would say do what the masses want, but mix in some games that others like @NESfiend and myself haven't heard of!  Those games are great!

[BeaIank | 1,618]

The scoring system will definitely be revised. I formulated it with a participation of 10+ people every week, but with the lower average we had, I will revisit it and change it to better suit our number of players.

[Jeevan | 8,910]

1 minute ago, BeaIank said:

The scoring system will definitely be revised. I formulated it with a participation of 10+ people every week, but with the lower average we had, I will revisit it and change it to better suit our number of players.

I get that some people don't want others to come in and knock them out of the top spot if they haven't been playing all year long, but honestly, i wouldn't have faced @Bearcat-Doug had he not been able to participate.  To me that is just a damn good player who wants to earn his tourney spot.  It is up to the others to prevent that by kicking his ass

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

1 hour ago, PII said:

Wow, that looks like a far more conservative estimate on great NES games than I would have come up with myself!

I was trying to be conservative due to my huge known personal bias.  I legit like 90%+ of the NES library, but I was trying to come up with a number that a non-NES head wouldn't argue against...

[docile tapeworm | 4,198]

My nes palate is casual. I’ve trimmed my nes collection down to 170 games. I could say I enjoy probably 200 games in the library. Everything else is like reaching for a reason its worth playing wether for historical purposes or because a portion of the game has interesting gameplay. 
 

when it comes to the contest I would be fine just playing the top 100 over and over again. To hell with all that experimental, acquired taste nonsense, we all know what the good games are at this point.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

13 hours ago, Jeevan said:

I get that some people don't want others to come in and knock them out of the top spot if they haven't been playing all year long, but honestly, i wouldn't have faced @Bearcat-Doug had he not been able to participate.  To me that is just a damn good player who wants to earn his tourney spot.  It is up to the others to prevent that by kicking his ass

You came pretty close to beating me from what I remember so it is possible!

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

17 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

My nes palate is casual. I’ve trimmed my nes collection down to 170 games. I could say I enjoy probably 200 games in the library. Everything else is like reaching for a reason its worth playing wether for historical purposes or because a portion of the game has interesting gameplay. 
 

when it comes to the contest I would be fine just playing the top 100 over and over again. To hell with all that experimental, acquired taste nonsense, we all know what the good games are at this point.

That's kind of what I was thinking. Even if we just played the same top 100 games, that's still enough to fill over three seasons to keep them from being too repetitive.

[PII | 1,885]

12 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

13 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

when it comes to the contest I would be fine just playing the top 100 over and over again. To hell with all that experimental, acquired taste nonsense, we all know what the good games are at this point.

 

It's a cliche but it's true: Smooth seas do not make great sailors.

Also, if I've learned anything from collecting games for the purpose of actually playing them it's this:  Everyone does not know what the good games are.  Everyone knows some and that particular some comprises some of the best but there are tons more good/great games that remain largely unrecognized because they don't look and feel like Mario/Mega Man/Zelda etc.  A good example of a great game that few know about and even fewer have played is: Isolated Warrior.  It is unique.  It does not look, feel or play like any of the super popular NES games and it remains obscure as a consequence of that in spite of its greatness.  I look forward to Git'n Gud at it one of these days...

[Jeevan | 8,910]

7 minutes ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

You came pretty close to beating me from what I remember so it is possible!

see that was fun right?  Play new games Old man Doug  

[docile tapeworm | 4,198]

52 minutes ago, PII said:

It's a cliche but it's true: Smooth seas do not make great sailors.

Also, if I've learned anything from collecting games for the purpose of actually playing them it's this:  Everyone does not know what the good games are.  Everyone knows some and that particular some comprises some of the best but there are tons more good/great games that remain largely unrecognized because they don't look and feel like Mario/Mega Man/Zelda etc.  A good example of a great game that few know about and even fewer have played is: Isolated Warrior.  It is unique.  It does not look, feel or play like any of the super popular NES games and it remains obscure as a consequence of that in spite of its greatness.  I look forward to Git'n Gud at it one of these days...

Isolated warrior/max warrior is a good game though. And I won that week last time we played it. Ive sailed plenty a rough sea to know it’s only a show of some type of self proclaimed elitism to say “look at me I play crappy games, enjoy and appreciate them”. 

[PII | 1,885]

6 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

Ive sailed plenty a rough sea to know it’s only a show of some type of self proclaimed elitism to say “look at me I play crappy games, enjoy and appreciate them”. 

Maybe.  Unless its someone who wants to Git Gud by playing as diversely as possible, perhaps discovering along the way that SOME purported bad games are actually misunderstood good games.

[docile tapeworm | 4,198]

8 minutes ago, PII said:

Maybe.  Unless its someone who wants to Git Gud by playing as diversely as possible, perhaps discovering along the way that SOME purported bad games are actually misunderstood good games.

My brother. I appreciate you enjoy playing the obscure stuff. If someone wants to get good by playing diversely, wouldn’t they take that initiative themselves?

we can introduce that tip of the iceberg in the contest. Games like isolated warrior, over horizon, crisis force would be good additions. But what do we gain from playing (no offense to the Brazilian Queen. Nothing but respect) poonyan and challenger? These games aren’t ideal for competition but more so for a book club.

[PII | 1,885]

7 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

My brother. I appreciate you enjoy playing the obscure stuff. If someone wants to get good by playing diversely, wouldn’t they take that initiative themselves?

I frequently do, but the NES Weekly has also gotten me to not only pick up, but git gud at a lotta stuff I otherwise would never have picked up.  It's one of my favorite things about the weekly.  Not sure what you're worried about, really.  At this point its been pretty well etched out that we're going to be playing a lot more pop. games the next time around.  And I never advocated playing games that aren't ideal for competition.  Your post an hour or so ago  just made me want to stand up once more in the name of variety.  It's the spice of life after all.

[docile tapeworm | 4,198]

1 minute ago, PII said:

I frequently do, but the NES Weekly has also gotten me to not only pick up, but git gud at a lotta stuff I otherwise would never have picked up.  It's one of my favorite things about the weekly.  Not sure what you're worried about, really.  At this point its been pretty well etched out that we're going to be playing a lot more pop. games the next time around.  And I never advocated playing games that aren't ideal for competition.  Your post an hour or so ago  just made me want to stand up once more in the name of variety.  It's the spice of life after all.

My bad pii. Your right I got my panties in a twist. And the contest have always been kind of in between competition and book club. 

[docile tapeworm | 4,198]

Im a misunderstood game that’s actually good