Game Debate #98: Sonic the Hedgehog 2

[TDIRunner | 2,771]

2 hours ago, DefaultGen said:

 I hate when people tell me a series of books gets better once you push through the bad ones.

While I agree with that statement when it comes to books or TV series, I don't believe it's comparable to video games, or at least this series of video games.  In this instance, no one will be lost in the story if they skip Sonic 1 and go straight to Sonic 2.  The vast majority of people who loved Street Fighter 2 have never played, or have even been in the same room as the original game. 

[MagusSmurf | 577]

8. Pretty neat game. Better than Sonic 1, not as good as Sonic 3 & Knuckles.

Even if you're not dragging Tails along I think the bonus levels in this one are actually pretty terrible. Have beaten the game several times but never even came close to having enough Emeralds for Super Sonic. I'd say they're the worst Bonus stages I've seen in Sonic but, uh, Sonic Advance's are probably even worse!

The final boss's hitbox/hurtbox at certain points seems janky as hell. It's a pretty easy fight once you understand the patterns and play in total safety but a fairly dragged out and not especially fun one. Whereas if you actually open yourself up to meaningful interaction with the boss, sooner or later it always seemed to result in me taking a hit that didn't seem to square with what I saw happen on-screen - it felt especially bad while he's taking off.

Edited April 21, 2022 by MagusSmurf

[Sumez | 2,992]

3 hours ago, Reed Rothchild said:

you're pushed to go as fast as you can, but endlessly punished for it at the same time.

That's just my experience anyhow.  I seem to be a bit of an outlier in that regard.

I think this is honestly a very common take, you're not alone. Personally I think Sonic's qualities lie elsewhere entirely, but that's besides the point. 

What I want to say is you should try playing Freedom Planet which very elegantly fixes this exact issue with the Sonic concept, as well as several others. It's a really good game, much better than I'd imagined going into it. Just... don't waste time watching the story scenes. 

[Gloves | 11,829]

3 minutes ago, Sumez said:

What I want to say is you should try playing Freedom Planet which very elegantly fixes this exact issue with the Sonic concept, as well as several others. It's a really good game, much better than I'd imagined going into it. Just... don't waste time watching the story scenes. 

Agreed. Freedom Planet was quite enjoyable and felt more to me like what I imagined Sonic was intended to be.

[Strange | 1,700]

4 hours ago, DefaultGen said:

Stick to your guns! 2 and 3+K are the best Sonic games in the franchise IMO, but you know what, I hate when people tell me a series of books gets better once you push through the bad ones.

That’s why I stopped at SMB and won’t touch SMB3 (I’m kidding, nobody be mean to me)

But yeah Sonic 1 is just not it in terms of series representation. Not only does the spin dash make the series better but the level design is also better going forward.

[Nintegageo | 582]

8. Solid game.

[Br81zad | 629]

It's good and worth a play, for sure. But I didn't get to really play Sonic games (for more than a turn or 2 at a time) until adulthood. So immediately having 3, Sonic and Knuckles, CD available kinda jaded me.

Gave it a 7.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Br81zad

[MagusSmurf | 577]

apparently unpopular opinion:

sonic CD isn’t good and I’d easily Sonic 1 over it.

[JamesRobot | 5,825]

13 year old me would've said this game is on par with Super Mario Bros.  10 all the way.  Better than the original.

These days I'm a 6 at best but that doesn't really describe the quality of Sonic 2.  It really is a ton of fun and the pinnacle of the series for me.

I'll split the difference and call it great.

[Estil | 1,265]

Maybe I'm not doing it right or maybe I just suck or something but it's much easier to do the Special Stages WITHOUT Tails!

[Tanooki | 4,950]

For better or worse the high point of the main line franchise really which is a shame being so early on from 2D into 3D too.  It hit this great balance of stage design, while not having an over-reliance on speed to the point of funking out the exploration to make it really worth the ride.  A solid balance of enemy placement, challenge, and bosses too.  One could also give credit for that solid split screen with Tails as well, a nice touch.

Sonic 3 was almost as nice as was S&K but while maybe obviously a little more colorful/detailed and audio a bit nicer too, but the rest, just a notch below, shoot I prefer Sonic Pocket Adventure(NGPC) more.  Sadly in the end Sonic as a mascot was more of a one trick pony that overly relied on speed and not rocking the boat much, really little at all.  The only time they really got into trying more variety was in 3D and well we know how that went downhill really fast.  This isn't be burning on it, because one could argue as a come back Mario was too, but at least the stage varieties, suits/costumes, and the rest varied far more even if it was just another save the princess run yet again so it felt fresher even when it wasn't.  Sonic just felt like one long run on sentence in mascot gaming, but it was Sega, so it had more behind it than many third party mistakes, misfires, or even good but overlooked due to the washout of so many at one time it blurred.

[RH | 4,966]

9 hours ago, Tanooki said:

For better or worse the high point of the main line franchise really which is a shame being so early on from 2D into 3D too.  It hit this great balance of stage design, while not having an over-reliance on speed to the point of funking out the exploration to make it really worth the ride.  A solid balance of enemy placement, challenge, and bosses too.  One could also give credit for that solid split screen with Tails as well, a nice touch.

Sonic 3 was almost as nice as was S&K but while maybe obviously a little more colorful/detailed and audio a bit nicer too, but the rest, just a notch below, shoot I prefer Sonic Pocket Adventure(NGPC) more.  Sadly in the end Sonic as a mascot was more of a one trick pony that overly relied on speed and not rocking the boat much, really little at all.  The only time they really got into trying more variety was in 3D and well we know how that went downhill really fast.  This isn't be burning on it, because one could argue as a come back Mario was too, but at least the stage varieties, suits/costumes, and the rest varied far more even if it was just another save the princess run yet again so it felt fresher even when it wasn't.  Sonic just felt like one long run on sentence in mascot gaming, but it was Sega, so it had more behind it than many third party mistakes, misfires, or even good but overlooked due to the washout of so many at one time it blurred.

I think this is a pretty good summary.  To put it differently by comparison, Mario games excel at introducing new and novel environments, dare I say it, that are just as important as the character of Mario.  The mechanics of Mario games are often balanced with new tools or character-transitions that facility a unique experience per level.

With Sonic, it was all about the "I just gotta go fast!" mentality.  Sonic games do have plenty of room for exploration, but when your foundational character feature is speed, you're very limited on how far you can expand the game.  Since Mario is a jack-of-all-trades, there is a lot of freedom in game and level design, especially when Mario transitioned to 3D.  2D Sonic games are great.  I feel like they could have made a great 3D sonic but it just feels like they never found the right secret sauce.  Regardless, having to build a character and a game around "speed running" is far more limiting than a character like Mario, and I think in the end, Sonic Team did about all they could do.

[Tanooki | 4,950]

2 hours ago, RH said:

I think this is a pretty good summary.  To put it differently by comparison, Mario games excel at introducing new and novel environments, dare I say it, that are just as important as the character of Mario.  The mechanics of Mario games are often balanced with new tools or character-transitions that facility a unique experience per level.

With Sonic, it was all about the "I just gotta go fast!" mentality.  Sonic games do have plenty of room for exploration, but when your foundational character feature is speed, you're very limited on how far you can expand the game.  Since Mario is a jack-of-all-trades, there is a lot of freedom in game and level design, especially when Mario transitioned to 3D.  2D Sonic games are great.  I feel like they could have made a great 3D sonic but it just feels like they never found the right secret sauce.  Regardless, having to build a character and a game around "speed running" is far more limiting than a character like Mario, and I think in the end, Sonic Team did about all they could do.

Largely that's where I went without just throwing the 90s classic comment of speed over style, one trick pony over the ability to do much.  Mario showed how that format worked better as the generations rolled on, and into then into 3D.  Then you see Sonic it plateaued early, and then with 3D did they try, but after a couple adventures it was a big decline because again they wanted to make it all originally about snark attitude and speed over well investigation and discovery making them almost optional.  When they tried to correct that in 3D or even the GBA/DS stuff largely the games got more and more panned for dumb ideas, half baked ideas, you remember the reviews...it just didn't work, Sonic basically pigeonholed itself into a stereotype of itself it never could escape.  Sonic Team did great, but even they bailed out after not too terribly long.

[MegaMan52 | 2,459]

8/10

Great game. Played it a fair bit in the early/mid '90s, and became a huge fan of the Sonic series. I was watching the Sonic cartoons around that time, wore a Sonic t-shirt, and read some of the Sonic comics. At this point, I was playing the Sonic games by myself. My friends were more into Nintendo games...and well so was I, but I REALLY liked Sonic.

I started playing Sonic Mega Collection for GameCube in 2003, and that was usually the console I played Sonic 2 on up until I got a Sega Genesis last week. It was during this era that I finally played the games with friends, and got a chance to try out the 2-player modes in Sonic 2 and Sonic 3. I remember in 2004 or so, Real (the company that made Real Player) came out with RealOne Arcade and Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 were included. That was probably my first time playing these games on a Computer. Later, in 2006 or 2007, I played Sonic 2 a little on the Gens Emulator. Around the same time, I also came across the Sonic 2 Beta website and found out about the many beta versions of Sonic 2, which was fun to read about. I remember a very early Sonic 2 beta cartridge was found in 2006, and is apparently the same as (or very similar to) the one that was used in an episode of Nick Arcade.

Tails and Shadow are my favorite Sonic characters, so the inclusion of Tails only made me like Sonic 2 even more.

As mentioned above, I got a Sega Genesis last week which came with Sonic 2 and Sonic 3. Nice to be able to play these games on the original console again.

Edited April 22, 2022 by MegaMan52

[Strange | 1,700]

3 hours ago, MegaMan52 said:

Tails and Shadow are my favorite Sonic characters, so the inclusion of Tails only made me like Sonic 2 even more.

Sweet GC collection there.

Man, I know Sonic Adventure isn’t exactly looked upon favorably but Chaos was a villain that really intrigued me when I was a kid. I still really like amorphous enemies in games.

[NostalgicMachine | 246]

Sonic 2 is a solid 9/10 for me. I grew up playing this one during summers at my cousin's. S&K+3 will always be my personal fave.

I also enjoyed 3D blast and GASP - yes, Sonic R (that OST!) - on The Saturn!