The Spreading (And Potentially Deadly) Coronavirus Epidemic....

[Tabonga | 2,317]

10 minutes ago, The Strangest said:

That’s exactly what I’m saying. That’s why you can’t call it the “Chinese virus” any more than you can call it the “American virus.”

And no, the water source that they found it in in Spain did not travel to Wuhan, and I doubt highly that every early case did so either. My niece, who had it, did not. My neighbor did not. But they both travel the US (and in my niece’s case, Europe) extensively and they’ve both got the antibodies.

At this point you could argue that they caught it from someone who caught it from someone else etc. etc. and trace the paper trail back to Wuhan, but at that point it’s conjecture with no proof and it doesn’t add value to an already divided society.

As I postulated earlier diseases are often named after the area they first appear (or appear to appear as it were) - the Spanish flu could just well been named the US flu (as opposed to American (which can imply more than the US) but Spain was the first place to admit they were experiencing it. Calling it the Chinese virus is largely because that is where the general consensus is that was were it started - or at the very least where widespread outbreaks occur.  Doesn't imply at all that the Chinese somehow started it (unless you buy into the lab conspiracy train of thought (I don't) - just means that where it erupted.

Contact tracing is erratic at best - someone was at an airport and brushed up against someone else (from anywhere) and got - likely they don't even remember it.  Someone put it in the water in Spain - no real  telling how it got there - but if it had been there any length of time there should have been an earlier outbreak than what China experienced,

The value in trying to figure out where a disease starts is that you can research the earliest iterations of it - the closer to the sources the more likely you can create a more effective vaccine.

Also there are almost always anomalies  in diseases of one stripe or another. For example there were cases of what was likely HIV in Europe and in the US in fifties and sixties* that apparently had nothing to do with the later occurrence.

*I don't remember the details - it has been a very long time since I read "And the Band Played On"  (which is a very good and interesting read by the way).

 

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,012]

37 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

That is implying that the usages "in antiquity" (although 1918 hardly falls in that category does it?) all were based on racism* is itself a fallacy (false premise argument).  The problem IMHO is automatically assuming something is "X" simply because it can be spun that way in a convoluted and distorted manner. 

 

It's what the logical fallacy is called. Appeal to authority, appeal to science, appeal to antiquity, straw man, ect. I dont give the names so don't ask me lol. It's not assumed as much as it was inductively reasoned. After the virus came from Wuhan to the US we saw a decent backlash towards citizens of Asian decent, whether they were Chinese or not. 

I, for one, am much more interested in seeing citizens of the US as Americans and not their backgrounds. I don't adhere to the intersectionality ideology. However, I can't ignore that naming a virus after it's origin country is decisive, even if one may argue not racist. 

We haven't name a virus after an originating country in 50+ years. 

The reality is, it's the skull fucking virus as it somehow skull fucks every western country it replicates in. It the spotlight virus bc it shines a spotlight on a person's ignorance whether be transmission (masks vs surfaces), vaccines, lockdown measures, holier-than-thou mentalities, virtue signalling. Basically any short coming a person had this virus brought it to light one way or another and we Americans as a whole aren't too keen on learning. Take it from the HS math teacher. 

[avatar! | 1,811]

As per the Caribbean nation's regulations, Mack was required to self-isolate for 14 days at a residential address upon her arrival. She was fitted with a geofencing wristband and issued a cellphone to monitor her movements during the isolation period, Hughes said. She also signed a document that forbade her from removing her wristband and leaving her residence during the 14-day period. But two days after she arrived, Mack removed her geofencing bracelet and left her residence to watch Ramgeet compete at the crowded Jet Ski event. She also interacted with people at the event for more than seven hours...She was not wearing a mask or her wristband, police said.

I hope they serve the full four months. The parents are all "oh, she is so young... just an innocent mistake". There was no mistake here. They knew what they were doing. Putting people at risk, deliberately disobeying the law. Arrogant assholes.

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

12 hours ago, fcgamer said:

No need for the political BS, that's for the politics club.

Or you can skip the assumptions and ask me what I meant. Because you find that I know what goes where here. 

In all cases, let me skip that ordeal and be more specific on what I am saying.

I live in California, which has 1.95 million total cases and 23,023 deaths. My location right now is lucky when compared to Los Angeles. But we still have more than other areas, which is currently at 31,759 total cases and 210 deaths. The current situation has me being unable to have my medical card be corrected, which means that I cannot see a doctor. And that is not good since I am feeling the effects of being hit in the face by a family member that has issues. And I cannot look up any updates on Facebook because those I was referencing are snubbing the medical community as a whole as a means to give all credit to "El Presidente".

Those you were assuming I was talking about have been generic to me since 2008. And are the reason why I decided to waste my time looking at my family tree instead of taking them seriously. Hence the 'Pickle-Dickey' find.

Which I guess would make sense if it was referenced in an episode of Family Guy. 

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

54 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

Ignore!

If I do will you let me count this as both your belated birthday and early X'mas present? 

[Tabonga | 2,317]

Just now, FenrirZero said:

If I do will you let me count this as both your belated birthday and early X'mas present? 

You are not getting your money back!

[Tabonga | 2,317]

53 minutes ago, RegularGuyGamer said:

It's what the logical fallacy is called. Appeal to authority, appeal to science, appeal to antiquity, straw man, ect. I dont give the names so don't ask me lol. It's not assumed as much as it was inductively reasoned. After the virus came from Wuhan to the US we saw a decent backlash towards citizens of Asian decent, whether they were Chinese or not. 

However, I can't ignore that naming a virus after it's origin country is decisive, even if one may argue not racist. 

We haven't name a virus after an originating country in 50+ years. 

 

That is the beauty of talking about fallacy types  - you can cite those that suit your needs and ignore those that don't.

There are always idiots in any society* that act irrationally to weird perceptions.  How "decent" those instances were in number is debatable since those type of cases often garner undue coverage by the press.

Calling a disease by its origin site  is not necessarily derisive (which is what I assume you meant) - it is more properly a descriptive unless one subscribes to some PC silliness (IMHO of course).

I thought you were concerned with antiquity  and not 50 years ago or even a 100.

In any event flu strains were named after origin cities as little as 20 years ago or so - not sure if that  ended (or when it did if it did) - quite frankly i don't give a rat's you know what!

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/10/981013074718.htm

*Look at the treatment afforded military people returning from Vietnam in the later stages of the war.  One of my brothers was so abused and he didn't even serve in Vietnam.  Go figure.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Tabonga

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

I just want to chime in and note that Japanese-American citizens were forced into internment camps, post-Pearl Harbor, because there was an unheeded fear that any of them could be spies. And that it was done while those the Government should have looked out for turned out to be Nazi sympathizers.

Hence the fakes were... Among Us.

But in all cases the whole debate is more of a "Lets not repeat history even though the Chinese Government could have done things differently" thing. At least to me. Which is why I am going to punishment myself to revisit Universal Studios Japan (in 2021 or 2022) and explore everything Super Nintendo World has to offer... Without...

*bites his fist*

...You guys. 

Edited December 23, 2020 by FenrirZero

[Tabonga | 2,317]

1 minute ago, FenrirZero said:

I just want to chime in and note that Japanese-American citizens were forced into internment camps, Post-Pearl Harbor, because there was an unheeded fear that any of them could be spies. And that it was done while those the Government should have looked out for turned out to be Nazi sympathizers. Hence the fakes were... Among Us.

A bit off topic here - a lot of Italian-Americans and German-Americans were also  rounded up - in the case of the German- Americans they were often the supporters of the German American Bund and the Silver Shirts.  They were generally interned and/or imprisoned and then often deported after the war.

One of the reasons that the Japanese so destroyed the US Army Aircorps at Pearl Harbor was that the US planes were lined up wing tip to wing tip to make them easier to guard from possible saboteurs.

Oddly enough the Japanese living in Hawaii were never sent to internment camps - there were too many and in any event the state's economy could not have functioned without their presence.

[fcgamer | 4,723]

Well I'm just going to throw out some other points here, though I know I'll be taking flak from some folks here.

On ethnicities: The earlier poster said something about the Chinese disease; if one looks carefully at my response though, one will notice that I mentioned calling it a China disease. China is not an ethnicity, actually it's a country. And if we want to get really technical to about it, what people generally refer to as Taiwan is also China, albeit a different China. Hence the one-China principle.

So calling something a China disease is not racist, as we are not talking about any races or ethnicities of people, rather we are talking solely of a political entity. Furthermore, let's take a look at Chinese ethnicity. What exactly does that even mean? Just the Han? What about the Hakka? Taiwanense? Cantonese? Uighurs? Taiwanense Aboriginals? Inner Mongols? I mean, we are talking about totally different ethnic groups here, are they all "Chinese"?

Regarding anti-Asian sentiment due to the virus: It sucks, but it's completely normal and natural, despite whatever name it's called. Prove it, you say. Sure, let's take a look.

In Taiwan, some outlets are still referring to the disease as the Wuhan Virus or Wuhan flu, suggesting it's origins. However, over the course of this whole ordeal, anti foreigner feelings have been increasing drastically here. People being hypocrites about masks (calling out and insulting foreigners for not wearing masks, but then doing the same thing themselves). Denying foreigners entry into restaurants and clubs, yet giving locals a free pass. Despite the fact that the vast majority of cases brought back from the west, into Taiwan, came directly from Taiwanese students, Taiwanense expats, Taiwanense business folks, and Taiwanese rich people, all coming back to Taiwan to weather the storm. Despite this being fact, the suspicions still generally follow us, the minority.

But this is something that happens everywhere and anywhere. People generally have more misgivings towards outsiders, those who are different, than those who aren't. So I don't blame people for such ignorance, and just hope someday people can grow and learn more from an outsiders view.

So I personally believe that irregards the name, we would still have arrived at some sort of finger pushing, fear, and blame, due to the origins of this disease itself.

[Gloves | 11,776]

Imagine not just calling it "covid".

[Tabonga | 2,317]

5 minutes ago, Gloves said:

Imagine not just calling it "covid".

Heh - imagine some people not making mountains out of non-existent mole hills.  

[Californication | 1,477]

13 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

Heh - imagine some people not making mountains out of non-existent mole hills.  

Right. Why are you making such a big deal about something everyone understands is racist.

[Californication | 1,477]

51 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Well I'm just going to throw out some other points here, though I know I'll be taking flak from some folks here.

On ethnicities: The earlier poster said something about the Chinese disease; if one looks carefully at my response though, one will notice that I mentioned calling it a China disease. China is not an ethnicity, actually it's a country. And if we want to get really technical to about it, what people generally refer to as Taiwan is also China, albeit a different China. Hence the one-China principle.

So calling something a China disease is not racist, as we are not talking about any races or ethnicities of people, rather we are talking solely of a political entity. Furthermore, let's take a look at Chinese ethnicity. What exactly does that even mean? Just the Han? What about the Hakka? Taiwanense? Cantonese? Uighurs? Taiwanense Aboriginals? Inner Mongols? I mean, we are talking about totally different ethnic groups here, are they all "Chinese"?

Regarding anti-Asian sentiment due to the virus: It sucks, but it's completely normal and natural, despite whatever name it's called. Prove it, you say. Sure, let's take a look.

In Taiwan, some outlets are still referring to the disease as the Wuhan Virus or Wuhan flu, suggesting it's origins. However, over the course of this whole ordeal, anti foreigner feelings have been increasing drastically here. People being hypocrites about masks (calling out and insulting foreigners for not wearing masks, but then doing the same thing themselves). Denying foreigners entry into restaurants and clubs, yet giving locals a free pass. Despite the fact that the vast majority of cases brought back from the west, into Taiwan, came directly from Taiwanese students, Taiwanense expats, Taiwanense business folks, and Taiwanese rich people, all coming back to Taiwan to weather the storm. Despite this being fact, the suspicions still generally follow us, the minority.

But this is something that happens everywhere and anywhere. People generally have more misgivings towards outsiders, those who are different, than those who aren't. So I don't blame people for such ignorance, and just hope someday people can grow and learn more from an outsiders view.

So I personally believe that irregards the name, we would still have arrived at some sort of finger pushing, fear, and blame, due to the origins of this disease itself.

This is completly discounting the fact that this teminology was made popular in the u.s. (which influences the world) by someone who has used anti-foreigner/zenophobic sentiment as a rallying cry for their support for the last four years.

[fcgamer | 4,723]

42 minutes ago, Californication said:

This is completly discounting the fact that this teminology was made popular in the u.s. (which influences the world) by someone who has used anti-foreigner/zenophobic sentiment as a rallying cry for their support for the last four years.

That bit is totally irrelevant. As mentioned previously, this type of shit has happened the globe over, and no matter what the name, and similarly no matter what the race.

 

[Californication | 1,477]

22 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

That bit is totally irrelevant. As mentioned previously, this type of shit has happened the globe over, and no matter what the name, and similarly no matter what the race.

 

Um..what?

So because other people do racist things it's not racist?

There are multiple factors herw they aren't mutually exclusive. Do you need me to draw you a Venn Diagram of how this is racist?

 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

7 minutes ago, Californication said:

Um..what?

So because other people do racist things it's not racist?

There are multiple factors herw they aren't mutually exclusive. Do you need me to draw you a Venn Diagram of how this is racist?

 

You're arguing just to argue. What's the point of it? I just know that I can rest easy as I haven't said anything racist in my remark about calling it a China virus.

My point is that xenophobic behaviour during this sort of situation is sadly normal. Others want to attribute it just to President Trump and the name Chinese Virus, I'm pointing out that this simply isn't true at all,it's something that's been happening everywhere, no matter what it's been named, and furthermore to all groups of people.

[spacepup | 2,404]

Can we please move on from this particular point of contention? It is getting nowhere and we have multiple pages arguing whether that phrase is racist or not and neither side will give in.  

The “you are racist, that is racist” and subsequent “no I’m not” that has intruded a few different threads is getting very distracting and negative.  Can we please move past this.

[spacepup | 2,404]

You know what is much more fun to talk about?  Vaccine distribution.  This has been a rough year but more and more are getting the vaccine and I think that is a very good thing.  
 

I know many are traveling and visiting family for Christmas.  I know some are just gonna do what they want to do, but I hope all are able to at least stay as safe as possible and take whatever precautions possible and feasible.

 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

Here's hoping that the vaccine can Knock out the mutated strain too.

My friend's mate is likely to be stranded in Chile for awhile due to that mutated strain.

Stay safe everyone!

[spacepup | 2,404]

Yea, I’ve read they are testing that.  I hope it is at least somewhat effective or that they are able to slightly modify as needed.  I’m not ‘panicked’ about the mutation but I do think it is concerning and good that people are working on that now.

I imagine this will be similar to other flu strains in that we’ll need various vaccines over time or it might change each year.

[Tabonga | 2,317]

I heard on the news that some well off people were offering fairly large (to me anyway) bribes to get early vaccine shots.  I only heard it in the background so I did not pay really close attention.

If true somethings never change.  They would have been really fun to be with on the Titanic with ( for several reasons the first class passengers had a decided advantage in getting the limited seats on lifeboats - due solely in the final  analysis to their wealth). 

Hopefully the vaccine will roll out in large enough numbers to put those shenanigans to rest.

 

 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Tabonga

[Tabonga | 2,317]

6 minutes ago, spacepup said:

Yea, I’ve read they are testing that.  I hope it is at least somewhat effective or that they are able to slightly modify as needed.  I’m not ‘panicked’ about the mutation but I do think it is concerning and good that people are working on that now.

I imagine this will be similar to other flu strains in that we’ll need various vaccines over time or it might change each year.

I assume the vaccines were created using as close to first source samples (dare I say where they are likely  from??) as possible.  If so the later mutations are very likely covered by the vaccines.

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

This is going to be the second Christmas I will not be "celebrating". The first one happened five years ago, in Osaka, after my engagement ended in silence. Something that would not have happened if my family did not realize that I needed help keeping my goals on track. And has become one of those prime examples on why I hate it when people assume anything about me (say, do, etc.). But even then looking for a fortune teller that day had a definite "RPG quest" feel to it. 

So I can only plan to open gifts, watch stuff online, and hope to have Chinese food at the end. And that next year I can kickstart my business goals (which will be on its 8th year of trying), work on everything that makes my variation of Asperger's a hindrance, get the shot, and return to Tokyo with hopes they are going to resume helping those who want to start a business there. Along with video game hunting and maybe a return to Osaka (since 'Dragon Quest Island' is too far to visit). With hopes things will normalize for others while I get my small game collection graded one game at a time.

Beyond that I am going to keep my issues to myself, continue trying to respect everybody here (even if I have to make numerous edits for different reasons), and hope the rest of you manage to get the shot. 

[BriGuy82 | 768]

I was talking to a mid 20s, female respiratory therapist about the vaccine. She said she isn't getting it because of fertility concerns. The current percent of young female hospital workers that I've surveyed who are getting the vaccine is ZERO. It's all guys and older women getting the vaccine.