Common Core Math Q&A

[phart010 | 1,708]

I did not create this thread to bash common core math, that’s already being done plenty everywhere else. Rather, I wanted to learn some things about it from people that have actually had to learn common core in the education system.

I graduated high school in 2004, so never actually learned common core. By 2008 in college I was a math tutor in the campus library and I was starting to get students asking me for help on common core problems, which I was unable to offer assistance on because it was never a part of my curriculum.

My question is to students that did common core math in K-12. After you learn the common core methods, do they still follow up and teach you the old school methods for doing really quick calculations on paper? If so, was there enough time spent on those methods for you to have retained it?

I’m just curious because after seeing how many steps they go through to do a simple multiplication problem in common core, I feel that it is not practical to use in everyday life. Maybe it helps visualize what is happening, but the problems take longer to do using the methods.
 

When I look at the complexity of common core problems, it kind of reminds me of doing matrices in Calculus 3. I can do them to pass the class, and then I forget it. I can relearn it if I reference the textbook, but it’s not really practical thing to retain and use in real life. Takes too long.
 

I wonder if they spend all the time teaching the common core learning methods and no time teaching the quick methods if people would actually finish the class knowing how to do the quick methods. I think of the quick oldschool math methods as life skills, and was just wondering if we have a large percentage of the newer generations finishing school without those same skills.

Edited July 9, 2021 by phart010

[Gloves | 11,841]

I was taught math the old way, common core is a relatively new term to me.

That said, I use math daily as I have to problem solve regularly and algorithms and parsing data comes up a lot for me.

I HATED math in school, I never got it. After school and in learning programming I've come up with many of my own ways of solving the math problems that I regularly come across, and lo and behold, many of my methods are quite similar to common core methodologies. I WISH that common core was something they taught when I was growing up, I think it's a much broader and more open approach to teaching math which doesn't rely on memorizing algorithms, rather putting the skills of problem solving into the students' hands. 

I don't know all of common core or anything, I have no real need to go back and learn it today, but all of the videos I've watched and papers I've read on it make it sound really appealing to me. I don't have kids nor am I anywhere near the school system, but as a generally educated adult who uses math regularly, the only reason I can see for anyone complaining about it is that they're old and set in their ways. Again though, I am not "in" this fight, so my knowledge of why anyone would ever complain about it is very surface level.

Anyway, I know I'm not the target audience of your thread, but I figured since I've done a fair bit of looking at it I thought I'd share my thoughts. I'll be watching the thread cuz it's something I'm very curious to hear others' thoughts on.

[Estil | 1,265]

I'm guessing Common Core isn't gonna turn out any better than the 60s New Math:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Math

[RH | 4,980]

We are homeschooling this year, which we did two years ago as well. My wife has been using Common Core Math the whole time.

She gets it and thinks it's better. She says she struggled with math as a kid but some of the way CC groups numbers, she figured out as a kid. My wife has also taken continuing educational course for teachers, so she understands the method and is 100% a supporter.

I've been an outsider looking in. I completely understand why "good" parents hate common core. It alienates them from being able to help their children. There was a bit in The Incredibles 2 where the dad was trying to help his son in math. Dad tried to show the "easy" way and Dax just kept on yelling "that's not how they want us to do it!" That is millions of families across America, and as you can imagine, this has created a rift between parents and the educational system.

I'd probably feel the same way but what little I've gleaned from my wife and by observation, I think it's an excellent approach to help kids minds not always think in base-10, plus prep them for thinking functionally. I'm not sure if that's the intent but if you are thinking about numbers in sets, you have a clearer picture of what numbers are vs. fitting them into a paradigm that works with the human experience and learning shorthand tricks to just come up with answers. Also, there's nothing wrong with learning shortcuts but if you know why Math operations behave the way they do, you simply have a stronger foundation in math. Looking over my daughter's shoulder in division, I think she's getting that type of education.

The sad truth is though, I think the old approach might have been easier and more accessible for more kids. I don't know, maybe the kids that easily "got math" 20 years ago are struggling now, and the kids that struggled 20 years ago now have an approach that works for them. It definitely does help some but not others but I don't know what that ratio is.

I know I've kind of rambled but the fact is, I think it has its benefits but the school system has made to drastic a change to quickly. Regardless, I really can't say if one way or the other truly is better but I am optimistic this might be a better approach in the long run. Only time will tell if these kids will grow up and have a better understanding of advanced mathematics and if so, hopefully they will be able to help their children at the dinner table.

[Link | 2,733]

I’m with Gloves, except I’m from a sort of opposite perspective that I did like math growing up and the “old” methods were successful with me. 

Despite that, and despite that I don’t really understand what I have seen of common core, I can see that if it is taught and learned well, it is indeed a quicker and more intuitive way of calculating, and using natural visualization to do so. 

 

What does this mean for parents who learned the old way and don’t have time or other means to take a course and learn the new way. Well, it’s different. Of course that is going to be a barrier for them. While certainly parents should be involved in kids’ lives and education, it isn’t really possible to bring new methods and ideas about if everything has to adhere to prior generations. Therefore as long as we use a model of public education (which I am 100% in favor of) then parental help shouldn’t be needed. Parents can’t be experts in all subjects any more than a math teacher should be expected to instruct in language, phys ed, art, etc. The school should be able to support a child struggling with curriculum, and have adequate resources and funding to do so.

 

[Link | 2,733]

3 hours ago, RH said:

I think it's an excellent approach to help kids minds not always think in base-10,

This resonates with me, because in 4th and 5th grade I had the most excellent math teacher who gave us binary, and then all the other bases from 3 to 16, as well as Sumerian, Roman, and Mayan number systems, exponents, and many other concepts. Our homework was self-corrected. We learned Logo programming and did craft and construction projects using measurements and geometry on small and large scales. Omni stars, Napier’s bones, tetra/quadro/octo/deca/dodeca/icosa-hedrons, a geodesic dome. I’m eternally grateful to that teacher and to Square One on PBS for giving me a passion for math. And the esoteric weird stuff was a big driver of that. Every thing doesn’t capture every kid, but you have to throw spaghetti at them and see what sticks. Otherwise, mediocrity will ensue.

[Daniel_Doyce | 477]

12 hours ago, Link said:

This resonates with me, because in 4th and 5th grade I had the most excellent math teacher who gave us binary, and then all the other bases from 3 to 16, as well as Sumerian, Roman, and Mayan number systems, exponents, and many other concepts. Our homework was self-corrected. We learned Logo programming and did craft and construction projects using measurements and geometry on small and large scales. Omni stars, Napier’s bones, tetra/quadro/octo/deca/dodeca/icosa-hedrons, a geodesic dome. I’m eternally grateful to that teacher and to Square One on PBS for giving me a passion for math. And the esoteric weird stuff was a big driver of that. Every thing doesn’t capture every kid, but you have to throw spaghetti at them and see what sticks. Otherwise, mediocrity will ensue.

Yeah, that doesn't happen nowadays. If kids graduate public schools knowing rudimentary algebra or trigonometry, it's a success.

It's amazing to look at a curriculum from high school from, say, the 1950s, and compare it to the low expectations now.

[The Count | 532]

I'm in my thirties and had to look up what common core math is. I suppose I was always incorporating some of it's tools in my head without ever having been taught them. I can see how it's helpful.

[DoctorEncore | 3,691]

I can't say I know much about common core, but I'll be experiencing it very soon since my son is starting kindergarten this year. I've always been really good and fast at math, so common core seems like a long run for a short slide. I'm sure I can learn it with minimal effort so I can help my son through, but I'll probably sprinkle in some old school methods as well. Still, if studies show that common core is actually better for learning, I'm happy to go with the science.

[captmorgandrinker | 1,650]

13 hours ago, Link said:

 I’m eternally grateful to that teacher and to Square One on PBS for giving me a passion for math. 

Mathman...mathman....mathman...

[Hybrid | 429]

19 hours ago, Estil said:

I'm guessing Common Core isn't gonna turn out any better than the 60s New Math:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Math

 

[Link | 2,733]

3 hours ago, Daniel_Doyce said:

Yeah, that doesn't happen nowadays. If kids graduate public schools knowing rudimentary algebra or trigonometry, it's a success.

It's amazing to look at a curriculum from high school from, say, the 1950s, and compare it to the low expectations now.

Yeah, it’s really hard to provide education on a hamstrung budget. Amazing how people think that works.

[Shawn | 31]

"Common Core" is trash. They taught that crap to my son in public school but I was sure to teach him properly at home. He did have teachers that included proper maths as well but more often than not it wasn't around. He's in grade 12 now for a time frame.

[LeatherRebel5150 | 1,056]

i just graduated college (again) back in December, and the occasionally the instructors would throw out the “its this way for you older guys and this way for the younger guys that learned the new way” on a few math related things. Us older students were like “wtf are you even doing just do friggen X and be done with it”

[Estil | 1,265]

17 hours ago, Link said:

Square One on PBS for giving me a passion for math.

OMG I loved that show!  I'd love it so much if the Mathnet part of it at least would get a comeback or reunion or something...

Before anyone asks, Kate Monday left the show because she could no longer affordably do the commute from NY to LA.

[Estil | 1,265]

16 minutes ago, Shawn said:

"Common Core" is trash. 

Common Core is not trash.  Zack Morris is trash.  NO FEAR  

Edited July 10, 2021 by Estil

[Daniel_Doyce | 477]

45 minutes ago, Link said:

Yeah, it’s really hard to provide education on a hamstrung budget. Amazing how people think that works.

Lol hamstrung budget. You're kidding, right?  Looking at educationdata.org, Wash DC spends higher per pupil than any other country in the world and has terrible outcomes. NY State spends even more.

You can't fix problems by shoveling money at them. Amazing how people think that works.

BTW, I taught public HS math and comp sci for a couple of years in my early 20s, so I know all too well how things really work in government education.

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,018]

Lol wtf is common core math? There is literally no such things. Its a term made up by the media to split people down the politic isle.

The NCTM created these standards, the feds created a common core for standards and then states individually created their own standards and expectations in the classroom. My state standards are the only ones to which educators are held to and I believe that is how 4/5th of the nation is. So if you live in Texas your students don't learn the common core they're held to the Texas state standards.

What the NCTM, feds and states decided was that there are things that need to be taught in schools. Those things have several appropriate methods of which they're taught. Teachers may choose from those methods. 

Long story short, elementary teachers don't know how to teach math. They probably don't even know math themselves truly. Middle school teachers can barely teach math. For instance I had double the amount of math content in my under grad, or more, than the average mid level math teacher and the university which I graduated from which is nationally recognized for it's math education only requires 2 semesters of math for elementary teachers. 

What that means is that often times they teachers would literally teach nonsense or sometimes not teach math at all. All the agreed standards expose is either how little elementary and mid level teacher taught before or how bad they are at teaching currently.

In contrast, the state standards hold educators accountable for what they teach and give them several methods to deliver the content instead of relying on inadequate educators to make the content themselves. 

As someone who teachers math for money, people who use the phrase common core math clearly don't know what they're talking about or have any experience in the field. 

[Link | 2,733]

On 7/10/2021 at 6:26 PM, Daniel_Doyce said:

Lol hamstrung budget. You're kidding, right?  Looking at educationdata.org, Wash DC spends higher per pupil than any other country in the world and has terrible outcomes. NY State spends even more.

You can't fix problems by shoveling money at them. Amazing how people think that works.

BTW, I taught public HS math and comp sci for a couple of years in my early 20s, so I know all too well how things really work in government education.

NY and DC spend a lot, can you point to something specific about those outcomes? Most of the info on that site is national stats rather than state level. I did find elsewhere that DC also has the highest level of educational attainment (and NY is 10th), which is not what I would call terrible. 

And yes, I said hamstrung. Not speaking of NY/DC because I don’t live there, but here when some schools don’t have a nurse or counselor on site every day, or adequate toilet paper, yes, I do think some money should be shoveled their way to correct that. 

Shoveling money alone, no. Is there waste or misallocation of funds that should really be spent on X instead of Y? If you think that, sure I will definitely agree. But money does need to be spent to make things happen. I can think of some areas of government spending worse than education, but they never get hit by austerity politics for some reason.

I loaded trucks for a few years in my early 20s, AMA about the shipping industry.

[Link | 2,733]

On 7/11/2021 at 8:21 AM, RegularGuyGamer said:

Lol wtf is common core math?

What most people mean when they say that is the number sense method.

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,018]

26 minutes ago, Link said:

What most people mean when they say that is the number sense method.

It's what they mean when their kids have shit teachers. 9/10 of which are elementary teachers.

One thing ppl forget is that those kids in math 100 at college were in the same elementary classrooms as the kids who test into 300 level calc classes. 

The determining factors for the kids I see in my remedial Alg 1 and the kids I see in my AP Stat isn't if they learned how to carry the one in 3rd grade or can do add the tens first and then the ones. Its their home life. Its whether or not their family values include and emphasis on education. Its whether or not those values became their own personal values. 

If a kid doesn't give a shit about math and their family things education is a joke idc what method their 4th grade teacher uses for multiplication, the odds of them being successful in any rigorous math class are slim.

That's why I laugh when people complain about common core math. 1, it doesn't actually exist as states have their own standards in place and 2, it shifts blame away from shit teachers and shit parents. The latter is the actual problem with the education system in the country. 

[Estil | 1,265]

12 hours ago, Link said:

What most people mean when they say that is the number sense method.