Why you shouldn't cheat on your spouse.......

[fcgamer | 5,005]

5 hours ago, KokiriChild said:

I can understand the idea that there are cultural things that are misunderstood. For example, how shoes need to be taken off when entering a home in Japan, or marijuana use and prostitution in Amsterdam. That's an example of cultural differences. 

There are some things however, that are universally considered wrong, and this is one of them dude. We're not talking about someone who was consentingly polyamorous here. You could argue whether or not selling his stuff was a justifiable reaction, but to say that she should have accepted his cheating or moved on because of "cultural differences" is just a bad take.

Except this isn't something that is universally considered wrong, that's a large misperception here. I'll post more on this later, possibly on my lunch break.

And that's my issue at hand, as I personally do not agree with cheating either; however trying to push your values on a different society I also feel to be very wrong, when it's not the black/white situation everyone here is making this out to be.

@KokiriChild added the chart here too, incase you missed it on the other post.

Edited April 16, 2021 by fcgamer

[O.G. CIB | 416]

20 hours ago, captmorgandrinker said:

Shockingly yes.   You can have Facebook too- there's a guy I went to school with that has been in prison since '94 that has one.   

I thought maybe at first it was somebody else pretending to be him, but there's pics on there from inside prison.

Guessing it's heavily monitored and only for certain categories of inmates?

There is not a single Prison (feds or state) that you can watch YouTube or have Facebook in America. The only point of outside communication in federal prison is email. The systems are heavily monitor thru a company called Corrlinks (not sure what states use).
 

The only way an inmate has access to either is having a smuggled phone in their cell, usually with the assistance of a CO or someone posting for them after they talk on the phone.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Mr. CIB

[OptOut | 8,997]

34 minutes ago, Mr. CIB said:

There is not a single Prison (feds or state) that you can watch YouTube or have Facebook in America.

No YouTube!!! 

That's it, I've decided, I don't wanna go to prison! 

[Dr. Morbis | 2,120]

3 hours ago, KokiriChild said:

For example, how shoes need to be taken off when entering a home in Japan,

This is off-topic, but dude!  Do you seriously not take your shoes off when entering someone else's home in Florida?!?  Do you not take off your shoes in your own home?  Do you actually track dirt and shit from outside all around your own house day in and day out?  And if so, is this an all-around-America sort of thing?  If so, you guys are barbarians!  If someone came into my home and starting traipsing across my carpet with his big ol' dirty shoes on, oh man....

[fcgamer | 5,005]

@Reed Rothchild Okay, lunchtime, here we go. 

Here's a nice selection of articles discussing the issue of infidelity in Japan.

Relationship in Japan, Cheating, Love, Dating Culture - Flip Guide (flip-guide.com)

Equal-opportunity infidelity comes to Japan | The Japan Times

How Ashley Madison Pulled Back the Curtain on Japan’s 'Infidelity Economy' (vice.com)

Looking for Love: Cheating in Japan - GaijinPot

If you want, I can keep going and find similar articles displaying similar attitudes for other Asian countries, such as Taiwan, China, etc. But it generally boils down to the following:

People in these countries often get married for the wrong reasons, or get married to the wrong people. After marriage the sex basically stops, especially if they have children. In the marriage was already one out of practicality or to fit a societal norm*, rather than for love, good luck having that marriage not go sexless. Obviously, the people then look for other outlets to satisfy their needs, since they "aren't getting fed at home".

The articles above mention that many Japanese see a difference between a drunken one-night-stand / paying a prostitute / a quick shag, not even considering it cheating, whereas the major problem arises if there is also emotional infidelity involved. In the initial article with Mr No Yu-Gi-Oh Cards, we don't know the extent of his infidelity, therefore we cannot know whether his actions would or would not be generally accepted by an average Japanese person.

I've also attached a chart, and @KokiriChild should look at it too. It is from a study showing the feeling of acceptance of marital infidelity, from several different regions around the world, with some of the regions having a decent percentage of the population even stating that infidelity was "good". So no, attitudes towards infidelity definitely isn't a universal thing at all.

It should come as no surprise what I mentioned above. In a lot of Asian countries, not losing face plays a very important factor. A discreet affair is not going to be nearly as bad as making a big scene about it, getting a divorce, and then also having a lot of drama with the kids growing up in a one-parent house, etc. Many of these societies also put the group over their own desires, so keeping the family intact as opposed to getting a divorce, even if the marriage was loveless and sexless, often prevails. Sorry guys, it's a cultural thing, hopefully you won't be so clueless next time the issue comes up.

*Fitting Societal Norms: In Taiwan, the "norm" is to be married by 30, have children. It's sort of the "Taiwan Dream". Though attitudes are starting to change somewhat, with more people opting not to have children, there are tons of people getting married just to get their parents to shut up, or to pop one out as they're getting to "that time" and it's what society feels is the "right thing to do".

 

 

[KokiriChild | 1,673]

1 hour ago, Dr. Morbis said:

This is off-topic, but dude!  Do you seriously not take your shoes off when entering someone else's home in Florida?!?  Do you not take off your shoes in your own home?  Do you actually track dirt and shit from outside all around your own house day in and day out?  And if so, is this an all-around-America sort of thing?  If so, you guys are barbarians!  If someone came into my home and starting traipsing across my carpet with his big ol' dirty shoes on, oh man....

I personally prefer to take my shoes off for those very reasons, but it is extremely common and not taboo at all in America to wear your shoes indoors, and most often when you have large parties at your house most people will be walking around in it with their shoes on.

[KokiriChild | 1,673]

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

@Reed Rothchild Okay, lunchtime, here we go. 

Here's a nice selection of articles discussing the issue of infidelity in Japan.

Relationship in Japan, Cheating, Love, Dating Culture - Flip Guide (flip-guide.com)

Equal-opportunity infidelity comes to Japan | The Japan Times

How Ashley Madison Pulled Back the Curtain on Japan’s 'Infidelity Economy' (vice.com)

Looking for Love: Cheating in Japan - GaijinPot

If you want, I can keep going and find similar articles displaying similar attitudes for other Asian countries, such as Taiwan, China, etc. But it generally boils down to the following:

People in these countries often get married for the wrong reasons, or get married to the wrong people. After marriage the sex basically stops, especially if they have children. In the marriage was already one out of practicality or to fit a societal norm*, rather than for love, good luck having that marriage not go sexless. Obviously, the people then look for other outlets to satisfy their needs, since they "aren't getting fed at home".

The articles above mention that many Japanese see a difference between a drunken one-night-stand / paying a prostitute / a quick shag, not even considering it cheating, whereas the major problem arises if there is also emotional infidelity involved. In the initial article with Mr No Yu-Gi-Oh Cards, we don't know the extent of his infidelity, therefore we cannot know whether his actions would or would not be generally accepted by an average Japanese person.

I've also attached a chart, and @KokiriChild should look at it too. It is from a study showing the feeling of acceptance of marital infidelity, from several different regions around the world, with some of the regions having a decent percentage of the population even stating that infidelity was "good". So no, attitudes towards infidelity definitely isn't a universal thing at all.

It should come as no surprise what I mentioned above. In a lot of Asian countries, not losing face plays a very important factor. A discreet affair is not going to be nearly as bad as making a big scene about it, getting a divorce, and then also having a lot of drama with the kids growing up in a one-parent house, etc. Many of these societies also put the group over their own desires, so keeping the family intact as opposed to getting a divorce, even if the marriage was loveless and sexless, often prevails. Sorry guys, it's a cultural thing, hopefully you won't be so clueless next time the issue comes up.

*Fitting Societal Norms: In Taiwan, the "norm" is to be married by 30, have children. It's sort of the "Taiwan Dream". Though attitudes are starting to change somewhat, with more people opting not to have children, there are tons of people getting married just to get their parents to shut up, or to pop one out as they're getting to "that time" and it's what society feels is the "right thing to do".

 

 

I guess this is where the miscommunication is coming from in our dialogue. There had to have been some level of emotional infidelity on the part of the guy in this scenario, or Miss Yu-Gi-Oh cards would not have done what she did. Ultimately, the fact that he hurt her makes his actions in the wrong, no matter how a culture views his actions.

I do realize that in a lot of Eastern cultures people get married for the wrong reasons, and I will admit to your point that it is a problem that Western cultures cannot as easily understand.

Edited April 16, 2021 by KokiriChild

[fcgamer | 5,005]

19 minutes ago, KokiriChild said:

I guess this is where the miscommunication is coming from in our dialogue. There had to have been some level of emotional infidelity on the part of the guy in this scenario, or Miss Yu-Gi-Oh cards would not have done what she did. Ultimately, the fact that he hurt her makes his actions in the wrong, no matter how a culture views his actions.

I do realize that in a lot of Eastern cultures people get married for the wrong reasons, and I will admit to your point that it is a problem that Western cultures cannot as easily understand.

It is still a very broad assumption that there was emotional infidelity, as the article does not say anything about it. So we need to look only at the information we have, while not putting our own personal biases into the matter.

Nobody is cheering anybody on to cheat, even in the east, I have guarantee that. Similarly, even if people are more likely to accept it, that doesn't mean that they won't feel hurt or angry. But that goes with anything, people in relationships or marriage sometimes do things that the other person isn't happy about, but that's normal, everyone is going to feel hurt at some point over something.

[fcgamer | 5,005]

35 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

It is still a very broad assumption that there was emotional infidelity, as the article does not say anything about it. So we need to look only at the information we have, while not putting our own personal biases into the matter.

Nobody is cheering anybody on to cheat, even in the east, I have guarantee that. Similarly, even if people are more likely to accept it, that doesn't mean that they won't feel hurt or angry. But that goes with anything, people in relationships or marriage sometimes do things that the other person isn't happy about, but that's normal, everyone is going to feel hurt at some point over something.

Furthermore, given the cultural attitude towards cheating in the east, I'd say that someone could make the argument that the woman's actions were "worse", since they were seemingly done out of revenge and malice, with no intent other than to "hurt" and "get back at" the husband, whereas the man was likely just being selfish and thinking with his dick, rather than trying to purposely hurt his wife, in a culture where this is more accepted

Edited April 16, 2021 by fcgamer

[KokiriChild | 1,673]

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

Furthermore, given the cultural attitude towards cheating in the east, I'd say that someone could make the argument that the woman's actions were "worse", since they were seemingly done out of revenge and malice, with no intent other than to "hurt" and "get back at" the husband, whereas the man was likely just being selfish and thinking with his dick, rather than trying to purposely hurt his wife, in a culture where this is more accepted

I just can't get behind this way of thinking. There are a lot of Eastern cultures where arranged marriages at the age of 14 are perfectly normal and looked at as a "good thing." Still doesn't make it ethical in any way.

[fcgamer | 5,005]

34 minutes ago, KokiriChild said:

I just can't get behind this way of thinking. There are a lot of Eastern cultures where arranged marriages at the age of 14 are perfectly normal and looked at as a "good thing." Still doesn't make it ethical in any way.

Okay please share with me some of those aforementioned cultures do that I can do some research on them this weekend. I'm always happy to learn more, even if I don't personally understand or agree with it.

Regarding being ethical or not, that's going to be again based on your culture and religion. You shouldn't be applying your western views on this when it relates to two Japanese people.

 

[fcgamer | 5,005]

Here's a chart with some countries' thoughts on the morality of cheating.

 

[FireHazard51 | 2,104]

4 hours ago, KokiriChild said:

I guess this is where the miscommunication is coming from in our dialogue. There had to have been some level of emotional infidelity on the part of the guy in this scenario, or Miss Yu-Gi-Oh cards would not have done what she did. Ultimately, the fact that he hurt her makes his actions in the wrong, no matter how a culture views his actions.

I do realize that in a lot of Eastern cultures people get married for the wrong reasons, and I will admit to your point that it is a problem that Western cultures cannot as easily understand.

I'm going to agree with @fcgamer, there isn't enough information to determine if it was justified act.  Given the cultural norms it seems that infidelity can be acceptable given the situation of the relationship.  I 100% agree that you can't say the wife was justified without knowing further information.  Crazy people exist in all cultures.  There are women in ours who can't accept their partner having friends of the opposite sex.  Hell our ex Vice President was known to not be able to be in a room privately with another woman.  You think that shit is acceptable or normal?  He'll I'd say I'd want more information if this whole selling of possessions happen in America.  Also let's not forget that two wrongs don't make a right.  But yeah, I can see a situation where selling the cards would be the right thing to do but the more I think about it the more I can see how it was the wrong thing to do.

 

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

3 hours ago, fcgamer said:

Here's a chart with some countries' thoughts on the morality of cheating.

 

Interestingly, Japan features prominently as one of the clearly highest rates of saying that cheating is morally unacceptable.

Seems a little counter to your previously narrative

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

2 hours ago, FireHazard51 said:

  Given the cultural norms it seems that infidelity can be acceptable given the situation of the relationship.  

 

Look at the graph that fcgamer posted -- in Japan the vast majority of people (more than any of the wester-European countries depicted) view cheating as morally unacceptable.

That does not present to me a  "cultural norm" of cheating being OK.

[fcgamer | 5,005]

1 minute ago, arch_8ngel said:

Look at the graph that fcgamer posted -- in Japan the vast majority of people (more than any of the wester-European countries depicted) view cheating as morally unacceptable.

That does not present to me a  "cultural norm" of cheating being OK.

Read the articles I posted. 

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

1 minute ago, fcgamer said:

Read the articles I posted. 

Is the graph you posted not accurate on its own as a clear statement of what survey respondents said was "morally acceptable" or "morally unacceptable"?

 

Personally, I would have said that a "cultural norm" is something that is "broadly viewed as acceptable" -- not just something that might be done despite being broadly viewed as unacceptable.

 

But THAT ASIDE -- you were jumping on Kokiri's case about projecting his moral views -- when from that graph, Japanese moral views appear to agree with his position

[fcgamer | 5,005]

@arch_8ngel : Furthermore, you are mixing up two issues. The first is cultural norms, the second is morality. 

In terms of morality, Japan ranks seven according to thst chart, of not seeing a moral issue with it. Seven out of how many countries in the world? That's a fairly high ranking.

In terms of societal attitude, the other articles I posted show all we need to know on the topic. The people may feel it's wrong as a whole, but that wouldn't necessarily change whether it happens or not, and the aftermath. I think as Americans we all can agree that gun violence is bad, but that doesn't change the reality of gun violence we face.

[fcgamer | 5,005]

2 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

Is the graph you posted not accurate on its own as a clear statement of what survey respondents said was "morally acceptable" or "morally unacceptable"?

 

Personally, I would have said that a "cultural norm" is something that is "broadly viewed as acceptable" -- not just something that might be done despite being broadly viewed as unacceptable.

 

But THAT ASIDE -- you were jumping on Kokiri's case about projecting his moral views -- when from that graph, Japanese moral views appear to agree with his position

Read what I said about USA society and gun violence. Just because we view something as acceptable or not has no relationship to what the actual reality is.

I stated, that Kokiri was wrong when stating that it was universally considered bad. I posted two images depicting otherwise. I similarly stated that it's foolish to be placing our own biases on the matter when it's occuring in a culture outside of ours, and truly different.

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

Just now, fcgamer said:

@arch_8ngel : Furthermore, you are mixing up two issues. The first is cultural norms, the second is morality. 

In terms of morality, Japan ranks seven according to thst chart, of not seeing a moral issue with it. Seven out of how many countries in the world? That's a fairly high ranking.

In terms of societal attitude, the other articles I posted show all we need to know on the topic. The people may feel it's wrong as a whole, but that wouldn't necessarily change whether it happens or not, and the aftermath. I think as Americans we all can agree that gun violence is bad, but that doesn't change the reality of gun violence we face.

The ranking is irrelevant -- what maters are the percentages.

A clear super-majority of respondents say it is morally unacceptable.

Kokiri's comments were about the moral acceptability of it, not whether it was widespread behavior.

At least my reading of your replies to him implied that because it was widespread it was widely "accepted".

But the survey responses certainly don't appear to enforce the idea that anywhere close to the majority of people think the behavior is "morally acceptable".

[fcgamer | 5,005]

1 minute ago, arch_8ngel said:

The ranking is irrelevant -- what maters are the percentages.

A clear super-majority of respondents say it is morally unacceptable.

Kokiri's comments were about the moral acceptability of it, not whether it was widespread behavior.

At least my reading of your replies to him implied that because it was widespread it was widely "accepted".

But the survey responses certainly don't appear to enforce the idea that anywhere close to the majority of people think the behavior is "morally acceptable".

You should go back and read again. I'll throw up a quote in a bit.

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

3 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Read what I said about USA society and gun violence. Just because we view something as acceptable or not has no relationship to what the actual reality is.

I stated, that Kokiri was wrong when stating that it was universally considered bad. I posted two images depicting otherwise. I similarly stated that it's foolish to be placing our own biases on the matter when it's occuring in a culture outside of ours, and truly different.

Nothing is "universal" -- that was a throwaway term for him to say that it is a very widespread view that it is morally unacceptable -- and the data you posted certainly appears to support that view.

The Japanese appear, in the super majority, to view it is morally wrong.  So anyone in this thread that agrees that the guy was an asshole and had it coming, isn't committing some kind of cultural faux pas by also viewing it as a moral wrong.

 

This isn't a question of whether it is widespread behavior or not -- it was a question of whether it was viewed as morally acceptable or not -- which it pretty clearly isn't.

Edited April 16, 2021 by arch_8ngel

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

1 minute ago, fcgamer said:

You should go back and read again. I'll throw up a quote in a bit.

A quote is an anecdote -- all of the graphs you posted are data.

The data very clearly says that a supermajority of Japanese view cheating as morally unacceptable.

[fcgamer | 5,005]

11 hours ago, KokiriChild said:

There are some things however, that are universally considered wrong, and this is one of them dude.

@arch_8ngel: He stated this. It's not correct. Whether relevant to the Japan situation or not is irrelevant.

The Japan situation is a reality, due to sexless unhappy marriages. The people might feel it to be wrong, but similarly, they can deal and accept it without going off the deep end, due to cultural reasons. Taiwan shares some similarities here.

On a morality issue, he's wrong. It's not universal, as shown in both studies I posted.He stated it was universally wrong , full stop, the studies show otherwise.

[fcgamer | 5,005]

2 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

A quote is an anecdote -- all of the graphs you posted are data.

The data very clearly says that a supermajority of Japanese view cheating as morally unacceptable.

We are talking about two different things. That's why you should go back and read again.

First issue: Japanese and cheating 

Second issue: Cheating is universally viewed as being morally wrong

Two separate issues, but both people were wrong