NES Completions thread 2021 - 665/677

[Khromak | 769]

1 hour ago, Dr. Morbis said:

we'll see if VGS can beat every NES game in a year

I think it's kind of funny that people are claiming that the current list isn't a complete list of NES games while at the same time claiming their list is complete, because is includes unlicensed games. There's no definitive answer here, it's a matter of opinion and not a matter of fact. You say that licensed+unlicensed is everything, but what about Legend of Zelda with/without save warning on the death screen? Are you doing Caltron 6-in-1 and also Myriad 6-in-1, because those are different releases, technically different cartridges. Is someone beating both yellow label and gray label Metroid games?

For the record, I think there's some validity to including unlicensed in "all NES games," and I'm not trying to argue for the inclusion of beating MM6 with a different front label sticker or anything, but I would like to continue reiterating that "all NES games" is a vague term which is totally made up by a bunch of nerds on the internet, and we can make it whatever we want. One person's opinion is just as valid as another.

We also decided that we shouldn't beat SMB/DH/WCTM combo cart because we've already beaten the individual games. Someone could claim we haven't beaten every game, because we skipped that one! It's all just silly semantics and if you want to argue that the line is drawn in the wrong place fine, but you have to admit that there are 100 other ways you could classify "all NES games" and it could be debated until we're blue in the fingers

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

35 minutes ago, Khromak said:

I think it's kind of funny that people are claiming that the current list isn't a complete list of NES games while at the same time claiming their list is complete, because is includes unlicensed games. There's no definitive answer here, it's a matter of opinion and not a matter of fact. You say that licensed+unlicensed is everything, but what about Legend of Zelda with/without save warning on the death screen? Are you doing Caltron 6-in-1 and also Myriad 6-in-1, because those are different releases, technically different cartridges. Is someone beating both yellow label and gray label Metroid games?

For the record, I think there's some validity to including unlicensed in "all NES games," and I'm not trying to argue for the inclusion of beating MM6 with a different front label sticker or anything, but I would like to continue reiterating that "all NES games" is a vague term which is totally made up by a bunch of nerds on the internet, and we can make it whatever we want. One person's opinion is just as valid as another.

We also decided that we shouldn't beat SMB/DH/WCTM combo cart because we've already beaten the individual games. Someone could claim we haven't beaten every game, because we skipped that one! It's all just silly semantics and if you want to argue that the line is drawn in the wrong place fine, but you have to admit that there are 100 other ways you could classify "all NES games" and it could be debated until we're blue in the fingers

When I started collecting, "all games" didn't require "all variants of all games."  15 variants of Mega Man 2 would all play more or less identically, and thus to beat it, any variant suffices.  Some things, like SE/WCTM, Tengen vs Mindscape Indy, the Punch Out carts, or combo carts, would be counted as one "game" for the purpose of beating them, because aside from a few cosmetic differences they provide the same experience.  Also, if you beat SMB on a combo cart, we would still count it as beating the stand-alone game.  Caltron/Myriad contain 6 games that do not have stand alone versions, but there is no difference between the two, so either cart can be used.  Then you get an interesting case like Maxi 15, where 14 of the games were available separately, but Stakk'M was only available on the Maxi 15 cart.  In that case, the cart is scratched off when Stakk'M is beaten because that is the only unique game on the cart - the other 14 are tracked separately.  Seriously, this "issue" was solved the day I posted the initial thread.  You're literally just trying to distract from the issue - the removal of <100 games that should be on the list, but aren't because of...well, I honestly don't understand the reason they were ever removed, aside from a bunch of n00b collectors not counting them.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,090]

1 hour ago, Khromak said:

I think it's kind of funny that people are claiming that the current list isn't a complete list of NES games while at the same time claiming their list is complete, because is includes unlicensed games. There's no definitive answer here, it's a matter of opinion and not a matter of fact. You say that licensed+unlicensed is everything, but what about Legend of Zelda with/without save warning on the death screen? Are you doing Caltron 6-in-1 and also Myriad 6-in-1, because those are different releases, technically different cartridges. Is someone beating both yellow label and gray label Metroid games?

For the record, I think there's some validity to including unlicensed in "all NES games," and I'm not trying to argue for the inclusion of beating MM6 with a different front label sticker or anything, but I would like to continue reiterating that "all NES games" is a vague term which is totally made up by a bunch of nerds on the internet, and we can make it whatever we want. One person's opinion is just as valid as another.

We also decided that we shouldn't beat SMB/DH/WCTM combo cart because we've already beaten the individual games. Someone could claim we haven't beaten every game, because we skipped that one! It's all just silly semantics and if you want to argue that the line is drawn in the wrong place fine, but you have to admit that there are 100 other ways you could classify "all NES games" and it could be debated until we're blue in the fingers

This is really silly.... you're looking at it entirely from the perspective of a collector, and adding in the whole "we're all right; no one is wrong" mentality.  Well you are wrong and I hate the cult of relativity that has permeated the last twenty or so years.  Here, I'll try and make it easy for you:

The goal is to beat every game, not to beat every cartridge.  Even in terms of software, if the game is essentially the same outside of the title screen, you only have to beat it once.  No one here is crusading for a cause that would require beating both blue and black Untouchables.  Why are you guys trying to make this so damn complicated?!?!  Holeee f'n Crap!!!

[PII | 1,886]

All of this apparent confusion seems just a bit excessive.  Famicom while closely related to NES is a different system.  The only potential major problem that I see here comes into play with regard to the PAL unlicensed library which is obscure and would be largely unfamiliar to most of the people taking part, but that is easily avoided by limiting the event to - beat the entire North American NES Library -, as the PAL NES is technically a different system as well.  The basic idea seems simple: All North American NES Games from its original heyday (w/cheetahmen II Grandfathered).  There is no need to talk about pirates, boots, Taiwanese, homebrew etc.  

Back in the heyday it seemed like everyone I knew had at least one Tengen game w/Camerica, AVE and Color Dreams occasionally showing up as well.  From what I've witnessed quite a few NES gamers are fond of Tengen and Camerica games.  I myself have a soft spot for Most AVE games....

@scaryice Apologies if my having opened Pandora's Box here has made your life more complicated than you'd like.  I also think you do a fantastic job with this thread.

[Khromak | 769]

I'm not trying to advocate for any games being on or off the list, all I'm saying is that both sides are saying that their list is the correct list while completely ignoring the fact that it's an arbitrary decision. You decided that you don't want to do minor non-gameplay affecting code differences and that's fine, I don't disagree with you and, as I said in my post above, I'm not arguing that we should include any of the examples I provided.

My point was, and remains, that it's all just arbitrary rules set forth by the community and there's not a right or wrong answer. But I guess never mind, I'm wrong because the definitive answer of the universe is beat every NES game not including any variant without a difficulty or gameplay change, excluding duplicate releases, North American region only, contemporaneously released. Maybe we should make that the title of the thread for 2022.

All I'm trying to say is you're being pedantic about what "every NES game" means and some other, more picky, guy could come along tomorrow and tell you you didn't beat all the games because XYZ. Because compromises have to be made or you'll end up playing 3000 games every year.

You can argue all day that your list is correct because whatever, but don't act like it's the definitive truth just because there's some history behind it. To me, it sounds like 12 year olds arguing over the difference between "Tag" and "Manhunt" because their friends always called it "tag" if you aren't allowed to climb trees and that's how they've always done it.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

2 minutes ago, Khromak said:

To me, it sounds like 12 year olds arguing over the difference between "Tag" and "Manhunt" because their friends always called it "tag" if you aren't allowed to climb trees and that's how they've always done it.

WTF is Manhunt?

[Khromak | 769]

Just now, the_wizard_666 said:

WTF is Manhunt?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhunt_(urban_game)

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

Just now, Khromak said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhunt_(urban_game)

I have literally never heard of this.  Sounds...well, pretty crap tbh. 

[Reed Rothchild | 9,548]

My condolences @scaryice

[Dr. Morbis | 2,090]

18 minutes ago, Khromak said:

I'm not trying to advocate for any games being on or off the list, all I'm saying is that both sides are saying that their list is the correct list while completely ignoring the fact that it's an arbitrary decision.

Neither decision is arbitrary in any way shape or form; one side is advocating for the inclusion of ALL NES games released in the US during it's life time and the other side is advocating for the exclusion of any game not authorized by Nintendo.  There is literally nothing arbitrary or relative about that.

You don't need to bring in semantics or strawmen or anything else: it really is cut and dried: either it's just licensed, or it's the whole library, and at the end of the day, it's scaryice's decision since he's the one running the show, and doing an incredibly awesome job at it, to boot.

I think this whole argument has pretty much run it's course.  Let's all just sit back and see how things play out on December 31st, and each of us can decide if we're going to participate or not in the project...

[bronzeshield | 293]

45 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Neither decision is arbitrary in any way shape or form; one side is advocating for the inclusion of ALL NES games released in the US during it's life time and the other side is advocating for the exclusion of any game not authorized by Nintendo.  There is literally nothing arbitrary or relative about that.

Sure, those data sets -- "all NES games released in the US" vs. "all licensed NES games released in the US" -- aren't arbitrary, but no one's saying they are. It's deciding which of those categories to use that's essentially an arbitrary decision, or a matter of judgment.

If you're hung up on the "ALL" , I'd say this: the title of the original thread was "Can NA Beat Every NES game in a Year", right? But that doesn't say anything about when the game was released, or whether the game was released at all.

If you're going to criticize someone as "speaking from the perspective of a collector", then isn't it just as "arbitrary" to use a collector's full set, rather than including prototypes (which the original thread didn't do) and homebrews (which it did, but only "for fun")? Those are NES games, aren't they?

That's Khromak's point, I think. With any "completist" project, you're always drawing a line in the sand somewhere, it's just a question of where. You may have preferences, even strong beliefs about where that line should be drawn, but those are your own.

TheMexicanRunner did NTSC and PAL licensed games, but not unlicensed; Chrontendo is reviewing games from all regions, but no unlicensed; I'm sure there's someone on Twitch doing every NES game with the unlicensed games included. No one is "wrong", because it's always an arbitrary cutoff.

Edited December 19, 2021 by bronzeshield

[bronzeshield | 293]

1 hour ago, Khromak said:

both sides are saying that their list is the correct list

I agree with your post otherwise, but has anyone actually said the licensed list is the "correct" list? (For this project, I mean, not in terms of collecting etc.)

I certainly wouldn't say that, as I think there are perfectly good reasons to include unlicensed and PAL games, and perfectly good reasons to exclude them. Both options yield an interesting project, so I'm honestly fine with either one.

Edited December 19, 2021 by bronzeshield

[Dr. Morbis | 2,090]

33 minutes ago, bronzeshield said:

That's Khromak's point, I think. With any "completist" project, you're always drawing a line in the sand somewhere, it's just a question of where.

 NTSC NES games released in the USA from 1985-1995.  There... DONE.

I await your next 5000 word post attempting to muddle up the issue even further...

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

39 minutes ago, bronzeshield said:

If you're hung up on the "ALL" , I'd say this: the title of the original thread was "Can NA Beat Every NES game in a Year", right? But that doesn't say anything about when the game was released, or whether the game was released at all.

If you're going to criticize someone as "speaking from the perspective of a collector", then isn't it just as "arbitrary" to use a collector's full set, rather than including prototypes (which the original thread didn't do) and homebrews (which it did, but only "for fun")? Those are NES games, aren't they?

When I started the thread, homebrews weren't exactly a thing yet.  I think we maybe had Sudoku and Garage Cart at the time.  Sachens weren't included cuz I didn't know they existed (though I may have included them at some point).  Unreleased games weren't included because they weren't released (duh).  PAL games WERE included.  There was no distinction between licensed and unlicensed because at the time, the community didn't distinguish them either.  And frankly, I'd be all for including homebrew titles, Sachens, etc...more games = more fun.  But as it sits, we don't even have every game that was counted from the thread's debut.  And had I not handed it off to Scary, we never would've dropped the unlicensed games in the first place...of course, the thread also wouldn't be as popular because I never stuck around the site long enough to actively keep up the list...and as we all know, if the list isn't updated frequently, participation drops significantly.

[bronzeshield | 293]

2 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

When I started the thread, homebrews weren't exactly a thing yet.  I think we maybe had Sudoku and Garage Cart at the time.  Sachens weren't included cuz I didn't know they existed (though I may have included them at some point).  Unreleased games weren't included because they weren't released (duh).

Respectfully, why a "duh"? I know a streamer on Twitch who's trying to beat the whole Mega Drive/Genesis library, and he plays protos as long as they're complete (or at least beatable). That makes perfect sense to me.

I think a better argument is that you literally can't beat all the protos, because some don't circulate and others we don't even know exist. So it's a set that can't be completed or even defined. Also, flash carts were still pretty niche back then.

Re: homebrews, wasn't Sack of Flour, Heart of Gold around? I guess that never got finished, though I used to mess around with it in the 2000s. Homebrew NES games date way back, to the late 1990s at least, but people actually finishing them and putting them on a cart didn't happen much (if at all) until later.

[NESfiend | 1,515]

2 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

The goal is to beat every game, not to beat every cartridge.  Even in terms of software, if the game is essentially the same outside of the title screen, you only have to beat it once.  No one here is crusading for a cause that would require beating both blue and black Untouchables.  Why are you guys trying to make this so damn complicated?!?!  Holeee f'n Crap!!!

Based on this post, Id assume you want Sachen included?

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

2 minutes ago, bronzeshield said:

Respectfully, why a "duh"? I know a streamer on Twitch who's trying to beat the whole Mega Drive/Genesis library, and he plays protos as long as they're complete (or at least beatable). That makes perfect sense to me.

I think a better argument is that you literally can't beat all the protos, because some don't circulate and others we don't even know exist. So it's a set that can't be completed or even defined. Also, flash carts were still pretty niche back then.

Re: homebrews, wasn't Sack of Flour, Heart of Gold around? I guess that never got finished, though I used to mess around with it in the 2000s. Homebrew NES games date way back, to the late 1990s at least, but people actually finishing them and putting them on a cart didn't happen much (if at all) until later.

"Unreleased games weren't included because they weren't released (duh)."
The "duh" is because unreleased games were not included due to being unreleased.

As for the homebrews...I would say that an unfinished game I have never heard of until you posted this probably wouldn't make the cut But when I started the thread, the actual list of completed homebrew games was incredibly small...like I said, there was Garage Cart, Sudoku, and maybe a couple others.  It'd be a few years before homebrew NES games really became a thing.

But yeah, the idea was for every released game to be represented.  I likely would've added homebrew to the list if the interest was there, and protos weren't released, so wouldn't be on the list unless popular demand dictated that they be added.  And again, at the time, there was no distinction in the community between licensed and unlicensed games, so there wouldn't have even been the thought of excluding them.  I also included PAL exclusives (as well as allowing PAL versions to be used in lieu of US ones) to encourage overseas participation - this isn't a system exclusive to North America, so why cut the games? 

3 minutes ago, NESfiend said:

Based on this post, Id assume you want Sachen included?

I would be okay with that, yes.  Like I said before, the only reason they weren't included in the original list is because I had no idea they existed at the time.  Otherwise, they'd have been there from the start as well.  While the debate continues regarding what region they were released in, the fact that they were released makes them valid for the list in my view.  The original list included PAL exclusives, remember, so it was never a US-centric thread.

[NESfiend | 1,515]

22 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

While the debate continues regarding what region they were released in, the fact that they were released makes them valid for the list in my view.  The original list included PAL exclusives, remember, so it was never a US-centric thread.

That would mean australian only release HES and games would be included as well. Are roms for HES and Sachen available? 

Edited December 19, 2021 by NESfiend

[bronzeshield | 293]

26 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

But yeah, the idea was for every released game to be represented.  I likely would've added homebrew to the list if the interest was there, and protos weren't released, so wouldn't be on the list unless popular demand dictated that they be added.  And again, at the time, there was no distinction in the community between licensed and unlicensed games, so there wouldn't have even been the thought of excluding them.

Don't get me wrong: I think including protos, homebrews, etc. as a bonus for fun is a fine idea, and I totally understand limiting the effort to released games. All I'm saying is that deciding to define "every NES game" as "every NES game released during the console's original lifespan" is a choice, not something handed down by Moses on stone tablets.

Re: the community making no distinction between licensed and unlicensed in 2010, I joined NA in 2009 but didn't start posting for a while, so I don't remember firsthand. But doesn't this thread suggest otherwise?

List of members with complete licensed NTSC NES sets

The first post is from January 2010, though for some reason the replies only begin in May 2011 -- it looks like the thread was restarted somehow. Also there was a thread by Topload_Dogbone titled "How many licensed US NTSC NES games are there?" that dates from April 2009, but I can only find it in the Google Cache of GoCollect.

I don't know, man...if you're claiming that everyone in the community thought of licensed and unlicensed games as "the same", then if I'm being totally honest, this "no distinction" thing seems like revisionist history to me. I was making that distinction as a kid! But maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

Edited December 19, 2021 by bronzeshield

[Dr. Morbis | 2,090]

29 minutes ago, NESfiend said:

Based on this post, Id assume you want Sachen included?

I'd be more in favour of including USA region releases only, which would cap the amount of games to be beaten at well below 800, but at the end of the day it's pretty much up to the organizer to set the objective and then people can decide if/how/when they would like to participate...

[Dr. Morbis | 2,090]

2 minutes ago, bronzeshield said:

Re: the community making no distinction between licensed and unlicensed in 2010, I joined NA in 2009 but didn't start posting for a while, so I don't remember firsthand. But doesn't this thread suggest otherwise?

List of members with complete licensed NTSC NES sets

The first post is from January 2010, though for some reason the replies only begin in May 2011 -- it looks like the thread was restarted somehow. Also there was a thread by Topload_Dogbone titled "How many licensed US NTSC NES games are there?" that dates from April 2009, but I can only find it in the Google Cache of GoCollect.

I don't know, man...if you're claiming that everyone in the community thought of licensed and unlicensed games as "the same", then if I'm being totally honest, this "no distinction" thing seems like revisionist history to me. I was making that distinction as a kid! But maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

I said in an earlier post that if felt like about 2009 when the distinction was first made, and I included a question mark afterward to portray my uncertainty, but it looks like your research supports my claim rather than rebuking it...

[bronzeshield | 293]

Just now, Dr. Morbis said:

I said in an earlier post that if felt like about 2009 when the distinction was first made, and I included a question mark afterward to portray my uncertainty, but it looks like your research supports my claim rather than rebuking it...

Hey, if that's true then we're on the same page to a degree. I can't dig up much NA stuff before then, though I found a post from you on Digital Press from 2005:

https://forum.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?59806-Tengen-Pac-Man-Licensed-vs-Unlicensed-(NES)

Beyond that, I can only say that I was well aware of the difference as a kid, though it was more "Huh, most Color Dreams games are crap, guess I shouldn't rent them" than anything else. (A dash of "Huh, Tengen Tetris is really expensive in the BRE Software catalog" too.)

But the weird stuff Camerica and Color Dreams games expected you to do to make them work definitely screamed "not 100% legit".

[Dr. Morbis | 2,090]

8 minutes ago, bronzeshield said:

Hey, if that's true then we're on the same page to a degree. I can't dig up much NA stuff before then, though I found a post from you on Digital Press from 2005:

https://forum.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?59806-Tengen-Pac-Man-Licensed-vs-Unlicensed-(NES)

Beyond that, I can only say that I was well aware of the difference as a kid, though it was more "Huh, most Color Dreams games are crap, guess I shouldn't rent them" than anything else. (A dash of "Huh, Tengen Tetris is really expensive in the BRE Software catalog" too.)

But the weird stuff Camerica and Color Dreams games expected you to do to make them work definitely screamed "not 100% legit".

Yeah, most of us collectors were well aware of the difference between licensed and unlicensed; the difference is that I don't remember ever coming across a "licensed-ONLY" collector back then; that is to say: specifically excluding unlicensed games from a "full set" or specifically choosing not to collect them wasn't really a thing...

Edited December 19, 2021 by Dr. Morbis

[bronzeshield | 293]

Just now, Dr. Morbis said:

Yeah, most of us collectors were well aware of the difference between licensed and unlicensed; the difference is that I don't remember every coming across a "licensed-ONLY" collector back then; that is to say: specifically excluding unlicensed games from a "full set" or specifically choosing not to collect them wasn't really a thing...

Fair enough! It'd be interesting to look back at the newsgroups from the 1990s and see if anyone floated an idea like that. I've never gone after a full set on any Nintendo platform, so the issue's never been on my personal radar...

[Dr. Morbis | 2,090]

3 minutes ago, bronzeshield said:

But the weird stuff Camerica and Color Dreams games expected you to do to make them work definitely screamed "not 100% legit".

As for the "legit" part, I'm starting to wonder if a lot of people aren't collecting unlicensed games because they think they are illegal?!?!  If so, that is an erroneous assumption: Activision vs Atari set the precendent in the USA that any company can legally make home video games for any company's console that they so desire without needing the permission or authorization from that company.  The only caveat is that royalties must be paid if the company's trademarks or branding are mentioned on the game's retail box.

The reason Nintendo sued Tengen, is because of how they illegally obtained the CIC lockout information, not because they were releasing NES games; companies releasing unlicensed NES games was and is  entirely legal...