General Current Events/Political Discussion

[Kguillemette | 1,561]

6 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Leadership is in short supply in America.

Sad, but true.

[Silent Hill | 276]

11 minutes ago, NESfiend said:

This is a shitty cop out. Like saying we shouldn't address a certain type of illness that causes death because cancer is more prevalent. And its just apples to oranges when you are comparing criminals who get charged and sentenced (with average sentences that exceed white offenders) to state actors who ordinarily don't even get charged. There are law enforcement officials at the state, local and fed level focused on black on black crime and its litigated in court. Police issues, not so much

Also, the problem with police having racist tendencies isn't limited to death. I see 19-20 year old black kids in court who ran from police. 10-15 cops and for some reason, even at 10-15 to 1 they had to turn that kids face into what looks like a soccer ball. Don't see that much with white kids and we got plenty of them running too. 

FINALLY, you want a real idea that everyone would embrace and would help? Mandatory body cams for every officer in the country. Everyone should be for transparency, even Estil! And all these police issues are coming to light because of cell phone videos. Body cams is where it should be coming from and would reveal way more. There isnt always someone around with a cell phone (i.e search warrant served, chases that go off road, etc.). Why do some departments want to wear them and others resist even if they are donated? Hmmmmmm.....

It’s not a cop out for anything. As a father myself, I would absolutely be having conversations with my son about that leading cause of death, because it’s highly, if not 100% preventable. You'd be ignorant not to address it. 
Your analogy of diseases is what’s apples to oranges. 

[NESfiend | 1,520]

Just now, Silent Hill said:

It’s not a cop out for anything. As a father myself, I would absolutely be having conversations with my son about that leading cause of death, because it’s highly, if not 100% preventable. You'd be ignorant not to address it. 
Your analogy of diseases is what’s apples to oranges. 

And those fathers do have that conversation. But insisting on reminding everyone that more black people kill black people than police do when addressing people who died on camera at the hands of police is a poor decision at best. Its two different issues and black people are allowed to have more than one issue. If you don't see how that comes off as racist, you have some thinking to do

[Silent Hill | 276]

Just now, NESfiend said:

And those fathers do have that conversation. But insisting on reminding everyone that more black people kill black people than police do when addressing people who died on camera at the hands of police is a poor decision at best. Its two different issues and black people are allowed to have more than one issue. If you don't see how that comes off as racist, you have some thinking to do

You quoted me out of context then. My point wasn’t to remind them of it, it was to state I’d be surprised if they weren’t having that conversation already, and with more emphasis. I admitted curiosity on polling stats related to the amount of impact/fear it has on their daily lives and slicing that feedback by household family structure since there are so many ties to long term economic and criminal effects.

I think it may help understand if the amount of impact/fear correlates with the actual chances of being an unarmed victim of a police killing.  

[NESfiend | 1,520]

24 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

I think it may help understand if the amount of impact/fear correlates with the actual chances of being an unarmed victim of a police killing.  

You are again ignoring the fact that plenty of black people are mistreated by police without getting killed.  

And this was not the first mention of black on black crime in the context of discussing police on black crime. It has no place in the context of that discussion but to hint that black people really need to look inward before complaining about being mistreated. Thats gross.  

[Link | 2,768]

2 hours ago, Tabonga said:

It has pretty much always been the case that poorer areas in every society will have higher crime rates.  Which explains higher contact rates to a large extent.   I don't know why that murder rate is so high. But I do know that some people concerned about the deaths by police just flat out don't want to talk about the horrific murder rates of blacks on blacks and will go to great lengths to avoid the subject like the plague.

I am surprised you don’t have an answer. Here is mine.

Both murder rates have the same cause. Communities that produce those numbers also have higher numbers in diabetes and asthma, schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, drug and gang activity... all because they do not have resources. And historically when they do have resources, they get taken away, from redlining in the 50s to public school closures in the 2010s.

2 hours ago, Tabonga said:

The key is ... creating organizations that want to actually function effectively in the public arena.

We don’t always agree, but this is one of those times that we do. (another time is how we haven’t had a really great president since 1980, although not that Obama is first or second worst ever)

Edited June 9, 2020 by Link

[Californication | 1,490]

@ Silent Hill, and the majority of violent crimes against white people are white on white crimes. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

[Silent Hill | 276]

2 minutes ago, NESfiend said:

You are again ignoring the fact that plenty of black people are mistreated by police without getting killed.  

And this was not the first mention of black on black crime in the context of discussing police on black crime. It has no place in the context of that discussion but to hint that black people really need to look inward before complaining about being mistreated. Thats gross.  

I’m not talking about mistreatment, I’m talking about unjustified killings. If we’re talking about mistreatment in general, I’m sure they have those discussions too. Hopefully around how to best “play the odds” so-to-speak and be cooperative. 
 

Again, I was responding to someone where black on black crime was part of their statement/question. No need to keep trying to pin me as a gross racist. You can’t be surprised that it comes up often though in a discussion around a cause of death. Even more so when people label police killings as an “epidemic” or “genocide” as I’ve seen. 

[Silent Hill | 276]

7 minutes ago, Californication said:

@ Silent Hill, and the majority of violent crimes against white people are white on white crimes. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

What point does it look like I’m trying to make? I replied to someone’s question and I didn’t bring it up as an attack. Just pointed out that I’d be surprised if it wasn’t commonly discussed due to it being the leading cause of death and it’s nearly 100% preventable. 
 

As for white on white killings, there’s no comparison of the volume between the two though, especially per capita. Homicide isn’t even in the top 10 causes of death for young white males.

[Californication | 1,490]

52 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

What point does it look like I’m trying to make? I replied to someone’s question and I didn’t bring it up as an attack. Just pointed out that I’d be surprised if it wasn’t commonly discussed due to it being the leading cause of death and it’s nearly 100% preventable. 
 

As for white on white killings, there’s no comparison of the volume between the two though, especially per capita. Homicide isn’t even in the top 10 causes of death for young white males.

I don't know what point you are trying to make that is why I am asking.

It sounds like you are comparing the homicide of two unequal groups and acting like it is an equal comparison. White people are the majority. And white people have had hundreds of years to pass wealth intergenerationally with preferential treatment. So if a bunch of white families are poor, middle class, and upper class. Black people as a whole have had their wealth limited for generation after generation because of structural racism. 

So you think it makes sense to compare the homicide rate of all white people of every class to black people who are less likely to make it to the upper classes because of the uneven obstacles they face. 

How about we compare the homicide rate of the whites in Detroit, Boston, New Jersey, or Philledelphia to blacks from the same area 

The problem in America is a class issue. 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Californication

[Estil | 1,267]

2 hours ago, NESfiend said:

FINALLY, you want a real idea that everyone would embrace and would help? Mandatory body cams for every officer in the country. Everyone should be for transparency, even Estil! 

What made you so certain I wouldn't be "for transparency"?  I don't know if I hadn't mentioned it already but YES I WOULD like to see mandatory dash cams (we've had those for decades) and body cams because one of my main concerns is not just to bust officers guilty of police brutality but this would also hopefully ensure falsely accused offers don't get their lives half ruined either.

As for the whole defunding the police thing, who do they think is supposed to enforce the law?  Dude seriously, don't put words into my mouth like that.  

Edited June 9, 2020 by Estil

[Estil | 1,267]

Amen, brother.

https://www.facebook.com/Rubyphotography001/videos/266233567914934/

 

[Tabonga | 2,364]

2 hours ago, Californication said:

And white people have had hundreds of years to pass wealth intergenerationally with preferential treatment. 

How about we compare the homicide rate of the whites in Detroit, Boston, New Jersey, or Philledelphia to blacks from the same area 

Not so much wealth transfer (in terms of longevity) as you might imagine:

https://business.financialpost.com/personal-finance/retirement/inheritance/how-to-help-prevent-your-heirs-from-blowing-through-the-family-fortune

Here ya go for Chicago:

https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/blog/chicago-75-murdered-are-black-71-murderers-are-black/

Edited June 9, 2020 by Tabonga

[Estil | 1,267]

Look, I don't want to see any kind of police brutality or any other flagrantly disgrace to the uniform actions.  They swore an oath to serve the public trust, protect the innocent, and to uphold the law (in that order).  People traditionally are supposed to be able to count on being the police as the good guys.  I just don't agree with any sort of notion that it's only the most serious and horrible of injustices if it happens to be white on black...and then at the same time implying that if the situation was the same but they were not different races or whatever then it's not nearly as big a deal or nearly as worth of national coverage/outrage.  We cannot, should not, and I WILL not just shrug my shoulders and be like, "this is only a black problem"...no sir, this is the kind of thing that could happen to any of us or anyone we know...the color of the skins in of itself do not make it any more or less wrong, period.  And frankly, I don't care if that's not the fashionable/trendy viewpoint right now...it's how I've always felt.

And don't give me any of these ASS-U-ME-ptions that the George Floyd incident wouldn't have happened if he were white.  If domestic violence can happen across all races/genders/economic classes/etc (at least I personally never heard of it as being a "race problem" though until fairly recently it had a MAJOR problem with reverse sexism; you know, generic he for the abuser and the generic she for the victim?) then it can certainly be true regarding excessive use of force by police or other positions of authority.  Remember how I mentioned that even as a 12 year old at the time I couldn't understand and found it unconscionable that the officers got off on the Rodney King incident even though they were caught on tape clubbing him mercilessly?  Am I really honest to goodness expected by those in the BLM movement to find it less unconscionable and less morally wrong if Mr. King happened to be white?

Edited June 9, 2020 by Estil

[Link | 2,768]

2 hours ago, Estil said:

What made you so certain I wouldn't be "for transparency"?  

He said you would be for it. 

 

2 hours ago, Estil said:

As for the whole defunding the police thing, who do they think is supposed to enforce the law?  Dude seriously, don't put words into my mouth like that

Idk where you are seeing words put in your mouth but as Al Borland used to say “I don’t think so Tim.” (am I doing this right?) Anyway, this defund police movement is not about completely eliminating law enforcement. It’s about allocating resources in smarter and more effective more efficient ways.  Where do you think the money comes from to pay police officer salaries, to pay for cars and guns and other equipment and uniforms and stations and jails and phone lines and radios, to settle lawsuits and/or pay lawyers for bad kills? How do you think it works to send the cops, who just want to enforce the law, how does it work to send them with their weapons when a mother can’t deal with her 12 year old bipolar son acting out? or a husband whose senior wife with alzheimers is unplugging appliances and burning pieces of paper? or a man literally stealing a loaf of bread to feed his family because he has no other way in our capitalistic society because of [long story]? or a guy selling loose cigarettes? or a teacher who is trying to cooperate and they still shoot him dead? or 20 people surviving by setting up tents in a viaduct because they are homeless and have no other way to live? or a schizophrenic teenager throwing chairs at people in the classroom? 

All of that costs a lot of money. That money toward a person with a gun to confront and control and has to wrap things up and move on quickly to the next call is not very helpful, could be spent in much better ways to holistically approach helping people such as rnsuring quality of care and teaching..

45 minutes ago, Estil said:

I WILL not just shrug my shoulders and be like, "this is only a black problem"...no sir, this is the kind of thing that could happen to any of us or anyone we know...the color of the skins in of itself do not make it any more or less wrong, period.  And frankly, I don't care if that's not the fashionable/trendy viewpoint right now...it's how I've always felt.

And don't give me any of these ASS-U-ME-ptions that the George Floyd incident wouldn't have happened if he were white.

See my prior reply re: Dylan Roof, et al

[Estil | 1,267]

5 minutes ago, Link said:

Anyway, this defund police movement is not about completely eliminating law enforcement. It’s about allocating resources in smarter and more effective more efficient ways.  Where do you think the money comes from to pay police officer salaries, to pay for cars and guns and other equipment and uniforms and stations and jails and phone lines and radios, to settle lawsuits and/or pay lawyers for bad kills? How do you think it works to send the cops, who just want to enforce the law, how does it work to send them with their weapons when a mother can’t deal with her 12 year old bipolar son acting out? or a husband whose senior wife with alzheimers is unplugging appliances and burning pieces of paper? or a man literally stealing a loaf of bread to feed his family because he has no other way in our capitalistic society because of [long story]? or a guy selling loose cigarettes? or a teacher who is trying to cooperate and they still shoot him dead? or 20 people surviving by setting up tents in a viaduct because they are homeless and have no other way to live? or a schizophrenic teenager throwing chairs at people in the classroom? 

All of that costs a lot of money. That money toward a person with a gun to confront and control and has to wrap things up and move on quickly to the next call is not very helpful, could be spent in much better ways to holistically approach helping people such as rnsuring quality of care and teaching..

And all of this is supposed to be making a case for defunding the police (which means take money away from the police right?) how?  This sounds more like an argument on why defunding the police is NOT a good idea.

[cartman | 195]

Maybe it isn't funding where the core issue is but some ways of operating that can be made different. These different choking techniques perhaps should be done away with or atleast better training surrounding them, like you subdue the person and then you adjust your restrainment to something else. But even the methods in this case and Garner were really the secondary issue to the fact that the cops didn't listen when the guys were saying they're getting choked so i guess the key to everything is always the communication. 

And bodycams aswell could be made mandatory and not with open loopholes like you ran out of battery or some shit like that but with an actual responsibility that you'll have to account for. So if the equipment wasn't up to snuff it's on you for not taking measures in regards to testing, some type of maintainence or whatever else that is relevant. If there was no bodycam footage for the situation you were in then you as an officer get penalized in some way.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

4 hours ago, Estil said:

And all of this is supposed to be making a case for defunding the police (which means take money away from the police right?) how?  This sounds more like an argument on why defunding the police is NOT a good idea.

Did you read his post? He gave you 5 reasons why police department should be “defunded” from the standpoint that a cop with a gun doesnt need to go to tge call because a homeless guy is sleeping in a stoop. 
 

maybe if a PD has a large homeless issue, they hire 3-4 homless advocates that have different training, as opposed to a cop with a gun. 
 

over years police have had huge increases in what they have to take care of. That is the idea of “defunding” the police, spread their work around. 
 

Just be prepared for right wing media to scream for 5 months about how sleepy joe wantS to fire all the cops so bad brown transgendered people can steal Little Sally’s sunday school books!

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

Btw, the city next to me completely made their police department go away because of the lack of requirement, now they are under county sheriff.  Pretty sure there has been no increase in crime. 

[cartman | 195]

9 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Did you read his post? He gave you 5 reasons why police department should be “defunded” from the standpoint that a cop with a gun doesnt need to go to tge call because a homeless guy is sleeping in a stoop. 
 

maybe if a PD has a large homeless issue, they hire 3-4 homless advocates that have different training, as opposed to a cop with a gun. 
 

over years police have had huge increases in what they have to take care of. That is the idea of “defunding” the police, spread their work around. 
 

Just be prepared for right wing media to scream for 5 months about how sleepy joe wantS to fire all the cops so bad brown transgendered people can steal Little Sally’s sunday school books!

Surely the issue isn't that a cop bears a gun on him? Every cop over here bears a gun aswell as part of the attire along with handcuffs and whatever else as do most police forces in the world. 

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

17 minutes ago, cartman said:

Surely the issue isn't that a cop bears a gun on him? Every cop over here bears a gun aswell as part of the attire along with handcuffs and whatever else as do most police forces in the world. 

Cops in europe carry guns?

[cartman | 195]

Just now, MrWunderful said:

Cops in europe carry guns?

Yes ofcourse. In Britain they don't they have specialised units for that but that's not the norm for a countries policeforce not to carry guns.

[Tulpa | 3,569]

https://time.com/5248606/colin-kaepernick-wins-amnesty-internationals-ambassador-of-conscience-award/?fbclid=IwAR1leppNV_p5KQvDO8SfYT5YHPzXPasfpVs9H58leHL1MLqavRXmvzGjWx4

 

[Silent Hill | 276]

8 hours ago, Californication said:

I don't know what point you are trying to make that is why I am asking.

It sounds like you are comparing the homicide of two unequal groups and acting like it is an equal comparison. White people are the majority. And white people have had hundreds of years to pass wealth intergenerationally with preferential treatment. So if a bunch of white families are poor, middle class, and upper class. Black people as a whole have had their wealth limited for generation after generation because of structural racism. 

So you think it makes sense to compare the homicide rate of all white people of every class to black people who are less likely to make it to the upper classes because of the uneven obstacles they face. 

How about we compare the homicide rate of the whites in Detroit, Boston, New Jersey, or Philledelphia to blacks from the same area 

The problem in America is a class issue. 

MrWunderful rhetorically asked if I would bring up black on black crime to a father talking to his son about the "dangers" of police. I replied and said I'd be surprised if it wasn't already being discussed since it's the leading cause of death for young black males. That's it. That's was my point. 

To your point about comparing the homicide of unequal groups, you're the one that brought up white on white homicides, not me. But I did point out that it's not relevant in my talking points because it's not even close to a leading cause of death for young white males. I'm not sure what your point is about wealth being passed down through generations having anything to do with the homicide rates. Unless you think a vast majority of black on black homicides is due to lack of wealth? I highly doubt the majority of homicides are done because someone doesn't have enough money to eat or be sheltered. If you look at the lower class across all races, a huge (if not the main) factor in outcomes of those youth are the household family structure, or lack thereof. No full family structure in the home directly relates to wealth, crime and education. Even Obama addressed this years ago. 

Tabonga shared the statistics on murder in Chicago, and even though it's roughly 1/3 black, 1/3 white and 1/3 hispanic, 75% of murders are black victims while 71% of the offenders are also black. If you dug around for the other high crime cities, you'd probably see similar numbers. 

 

 

[CodysGameRoom | 2,009]

14 hours ago, NESfiend said:

Most of the people pushing racist positions do not believe that they are in fact racist. Probably 99% or more. You are better off trying to educate them as to why things they say and positions they take at least come off as racist and convincing them they are better off not to be associated with that.

Have you read this thread? It's literally full of people who don't think they are being racist saying racist shit. I've made post after post trying to convince them and its fruitless. What you are describing is literally what I'm doing here. If I was just writing them off, I'd stop responding. 

But it's rando's on a message board. In my real life? Yea, it all depends on the context. Is this a genuinely good person who is just confused or saying stupid shit? Yea I'll give it a shot. Is this some fuckwad with racism ingrained into their personality? Yea, they can fuck off.