Pulling out of Afghanistan

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,018]

13 minutes ago, Californication said:

If they asked for us to stop bombing we could have take Bin Ladin and left ground forces. We could have taken Bin Ladin and kept bombing. The thing is Bin Ladin was the face of the war's. 

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure this is where Bush's famous "we do not negotiate with terrorists" quote came from.

Hindsight is 2020 but if I was the president idk if I would've accepted that deal either. It allows them to spin the narrative that US bended the knee to their demands and would've made it more difficult to proceed with the airstrikes if Bin Ladin wouldn't have been moved quickly. 

Not that I agree w how Bush handled the situation. It was a total shit show and it was NOT the man for the job. There's few times in life where Al Gore would be a better pick but man I think that was one of em. 

[Californication | 1,490]

15 minutes ago, RegularGuyGamer said:

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure this is where Bush's famous "we do not negotiate with terrorists" quote came from.

Hindsight is 2020 but if I was the president idk if I would've accepted that deal either. It allows them to spin the narrative that US bended the knee to their demands and would've made it more difficult to proceed with the airstrikes if Bin Ladin wouldn't have been moved quickly. 

Not that I agree w how Bush handled the situation. It was a total shit show and it was NOT the man for the job. There's few times in life where Al Gore would be a better pick but man I think that was one of em. 

The U.S. was the most powerful country at the time militarily and had respect diplomatically. I bet someone could make a reasonable argument that staying there reduced our diplomatic capabilities. I also feel like being in such a strong position we could have created our own reputation. Like Trump finally backing down with Iran was one of the best decisions he made imo. It's hard to give him credit because he created the whole situation, but I was very relieved when they didn't respond to Iran firing rockets at that base.

[ThePhleo | 2,186]

I have way too much to say about this topic, so I'll just say it simply.

Besides the trillions of dollars being spent on an unwinnable war instead of being spent on the United States tax payer.

Besides the countless innocent lives taken away as a result of collateral damage.

Besides the result of us pulling out and effectively giving more land to the taliban and a huge boost to their morale. (AND OTHER similar groups around the world)

 

The biggest tragedy is the fear going through the minds of the next generation of Afghani children. Who IN ORDER TO SURVIVE will either have to flee from everything they know and love, or make a conscious adult decision of becoming the Taliban themselves.

They don't understand geopolitics. They don't understand the cost of a war like this. They don't even know what 9/11 was to us in America. All they know is their lives are ruined and will resent America and the rest of the western world for abandoning them during their most impressionable years.

They will be reeducated into believing that we are the enemy. Maybe they're even right in that regards.

 

This event will have generations long impacts on the future.

I hope my children won't have to fight against theirs. But the war machine must be fed, and I don't see any good coming out of this.

 

Another thing to remember is that there are other evil groups out there in the world. Isis, Boko Haram to name a few. They are most definitely watching closely at the events going on right now and can only feel emboldened.

Edited August 17, 2021 by ThePhleo

[Californication | 1,490]

@Phleo,

I completely agree. I wish Bush and Cheney didn't sell us a war on fake evidence that has destroyed all of these lives, hurt women and children, and will indirectly lead their offspring to hate us the way they hate us for torturing people indiscriminately. Because it was the move to Iraq and use of resources in Iraq that prevented us from paying attention to what happened in Afghanistan and then everything was entangled.

And it is too bad Obama and Trump refused to get us out of there sooner.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Californication

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,018]

3 hours ago, Californication said:

If they asked for us to stop bombing we could have take Bin Ladin and left ground forces. We could have taken Bin Ladin and kept bombing. The thing is Bin Ladin was the face of the war's. 

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure this is where Bush's famous "we do not negotiate with terrorists" quote came from.

Hindsight is 20/20 but if I was the president idk if I would've accepted that deal either. It allows them to spin the narrative that US bended the knee to their demands and would've made it more difficult to proceed with the airstrikes if Bin Ladin wouldn't have been moved quickly. 

Not that I agree w how Bush handled the situation. It was a total shit show and it was NOT the man for the job. 

--

However if anyone watches the video I posted early there is a Taliban appointed judge talking about how a woman will get 100 lashes for sex before marriage and will be stoned for adultery. People who steal will have their hands chopped off. All of which are in the public square. They've already publicly hung people. 

The US is doing very little to make these people extremists. They're living in a different world where women are property and people in power roam the streets with automatic weapons and execute those who oppose them. This isn't some misunderstanding, it's their way of life and they cram it down the other citizens. Why do you think there are droves of people leaving? It's not bc they're insane too. It's bc they know the Taliban are pure savages.

[FireHazard51 | 2,052]

The one hope I see for the country is if other Middle East countries move further away from what Taliban are preaching.  They without a doubt have some influence on that country.  IE when Iran allows more human rights for women to exit.  Like your saying, these countries are centuries behind the times with how we look at how men, women, and children are to behave and their rights that they posses.  If you wanted to force it you'd have to have full occupation of that country and basically rule it like a dictatorship.  But no way in fuck are we going to send 500,000+ soldiers to occupy every town and village there to make sure they act correctly.  Only after a generation have been raised to see why human rights are important would you begin to withdraw.  

Generals made it known before we invaded Iraq that to occupy the country will require hundreds of thousands of soldiers because that's what it took to control Germany and Japan.  And both those countries didn't try to fight back.  Japan could of been a real fuck up but someone listen to an expert that they needed to keep the emperor in place because that is what keep their countrymen passive.  Seriously, Japan is a great example of needing to look at a country's culture and adapt it to your will if you want acceptance.  What culture of Taliban are we going to accept while doing a massive occupation.

As soon as we started a war with "terrorism"  we lost because it will always exist.  You can't get ride it no more than you can win a war against rape, murder, or corruption.  But the war on "terrorism" allowed us to attack Iraq and the Taliban.  I mean as soon as we declarer a war on terror, how the fuck do you back down and say it was won?   Like Ricky Bobby said, "If your not first your last."  If you don't win a war then you lost the war. 

But whatever, we lost what we couldn't win.  No sense in continuing a war and be in denial about it.  It was all a part of the military industrial complex.

 

 

Eisenhower whistle blew this issue back in the 50's.  A FUCKING GENERAL was against spending more and more money on the military.

 

[CMR | 522]

 

[FireHazard51 | 2,052]

15 hours ago, CMR said:

 

I watched this last night.  This sounds very much with what I've heard other people say.  I've also seen videos where someone held the target over their head and had the guy aim to hit it.  He was so confident the guy's shooting was so bad that he'd never get hit by the bullet.

In basic training it was asked what to do when you get caught in a close quarter ambush (within 100 meters).  DS said you don't take cover but charge right at the enemy and kill them as soon as possible.  He said that you'll only get hit if they are aiming for your buddy next to you.  AKA they can't aim for shit. 

Just watch 2 min worth of this video from my time stamp.  This is the Afghan Commando's, their best trained, special forces unit.  And just watch how bad they react to being attacked.  

This video clip ISN'T a fucking joke or skit.  This is legit what kind of men the army was trying to train into soldiers.  If the Army was too harsh they'd quit the AA.  So in turn the standards had to be lowered.....a lot.

 

[phart010 | 1,708]

On 8/17/2021 at 4:20 AM, Shmup said:

All well said points.

The scary thing is the US has spent roughly $2trillion with not much to show for it. Absolutely crazy when you think what that could have done for their own citizens.

 

On 8/17/2021 at 5:47 AM, Shmup said:

That’s really sad then. All those lives and money lost for little to no positive outcome. Adding to that all that money that could have been funnelled to infrastructure and the citizens.

Like @Californication mentioned, corporate giveaways. That money wasn’t all sent away to some black hole. A lot of it was funneled over to construction contractors, private security forces, product manufacturers, etc. These companies caught a lot of that money providing goods and services over there. And many of them are based out of the US.

A lot of people talk about this as if the money just vanished into thin air with nothing to show for it. In reality, a lot of that money is still here, it just went from the government’s bank account into some private firms bank account.

[Brickman | 4,017]

43 minutes ago, phart010 said:

 

Like @Californication mentioned, corporate giveaways. That money wasn’t all sent away to some black hole. A lot of it was funneled over to construction contractors, private security forces, product manufacturers, etc. These companies caught a lot of that money providing goods and services over there. And many of them are based out of the US.

A lot of people talk about this as if the money just vanished into thin air with nothing to show for it. In reality, a lot of that money is still here, it just went from the government’s bank account into some private firms bank account.

Yes but my point is that the money would have been better spent on infrastructure within the US and the US citizens as opposed to war machines and bombs. The collective US citizens would see more benefit then the small amount of corporations like Lockheed Martin.

I never have supported the Afghan war and hate that my country had a small part in it.

[Tulpa | 3,537]

20 hours ago, Shmup said:

Yes but my point is that the money would have been better spent on infrastructure within the US and the US citizens as opposed to war machines and bombs. The collective US citizens would see more benefit then the small amount of corporations like Lockheed Martin.

 

You have to understand, for Americans, blowing shit up is way cooler than responsible spending.

[Californication | 1,490]

@RegularGuyGamer

This interview regarding Afghanistan is interesting.

https://www.democracynow.org/2021/8/20/spencer_ackerman_reign_of_terror

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,018]

2 hours ago, Californication said:

@RegularGuyGamer

This interview regarding Afghanistan is interesting.

https://www.democracynow.org/2021/8/20/spencer_ackerman_reign_of_terror

Some things he grossed over that I think is pretty key is Afghanistan at large that aren't the Taliban. Like in the last 7 years the Afghan arm has had 50k+ casualties. And how the average age of an afghan citizen is18.5 years old. 

The average afghans only know American occupation and their own army fighting the Taliban. I mean, we had more troops in Qatar than Afghanistan. 

And it doesn't explain the Taliban actions. They ripped a female Md. Out of a taxi which is rode bc she was afraid to drive herself since it's against the taliban rules and then whipped her in the fuckin street. 

Like to blame this type of behavior on American occupation is almost goofy to me. Their backwards savages that hate everyone who isn't them and even the women who are them. 

I can understand their rush to take major cities as a result of the American pull out but the Afghan army has been the ones fighting the Taliban for the better half of the last decade. There was literally 2.5k troops there this year and there hasn't been an American casualty in a year and a half. It's more dangerous to police the streets of Chicago or DC than it is to be stationed in Afghanistan ffs. 

If keeping 2.5k troops there to help run the Afghan army in pursuit to keep the Taliban at bay is all we had to do to make sure girls can go to school and not be fucking whipped in the street for riding in a car, it's a small price to pay.

My question is what about Somalia? There's 5k+ troops stationed there. When are they coming out to make Biden look good and destabilize that region?

[Californication | 1,490]

38 minutes ago, RegularGuyGamer said:

Like to blame this type of behavior on American occupation is almost goofy to me. Their backwards savages that hate everyone who isn't them and even the women who are them. 

 

When are they coming out to make Biden look good and destabilize that region?

I think he does a good job of laying out multiple objectively factual ways in which the U.S. has screwed up Afghanistan and that region.

 

Biden is getting attacked from all sides and looks pretty shitty if you listen to mainstream media narratives. Not to mention donors are telling their Dem. politicians to investigate Biden.

If there is one thing politicians and the people who fund news stations don't like it's getting out of wars.

[Kguillemette | 1,547]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/striking-videos-show-afghan-women-051246827.html

It makes me so happy to read reports that the Afghan people aren't going quietly into the night. I also read a report that the Afghan army retook some northern provinces! I pray that God be with them while they fight off their evil oppressors. It's not over yet!

[Link | 2,734]

On 8/19/2021 at 9:41 PM, phart010 said:

A lot of people talk about this as if the money just vanished into thin air with nothing to show for it. In reality, a lot of that money is still here, it just went from the government’s bank account into some private firms bank account.

A dinstinction without a difference 

[phart010 | 1,708]

10 hours ago, Link said:

A dinstinction without a difference 

It’s an important distinction because it highlights the money trail.
 

Afghanistan was like a goose laying golden eggs.

Check this out (don’t mind it being on FoxNews.com it’s just a republished Associated Press article)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/story/halliburtons-iraq-afghanistan-contracts-at-600-million-and-growing.amp
 

No bid government contracts awarded to Halliburton for Afghanistan and Iraq? And no spending limits? WTF! But don’t worry, they clarified that the fact that Dick Cheney was former CEO to Halliburton had nothing to do with the contracts being awarded outside of the open bid process.

No wonder we stayed there so long. It almost makes you wonder if the motivation to go there was the money and if the whole war on terror narrative was just the means to the end. I mean there’s way worse genocides happening in African countries and Xinjiang China, but we don’t seem to be doing anything military to stop the injustice in those places.

Edited August 22, 2021 by phart010

[FireHazard51 | 2,052]

4 hours ago, phart010 said:

It’s an important distinction because it highlights the money trail.
 

Afghanistan was like a goose laying golden eggs.

Check this out (don’t mind it being on FoxNews.com it’s just a republished Associated Press article)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/story/halliburtons-iraq-afghanistan-contracts-at-600-million-and-growing.amp
 

No bid government contracts awarded to Halliburton for Afghanistan and Iraq? And no spending limits? WTF! But don’t worry, they clarified that the fact that Dick Cheney was former CEO to Halliburton had nothing to do with the contracts being awarded outside of the open bid process.

No wonder we stayed there so long. It almost makes you wonder if the motivation to go there was the money and if the whole war on terror narrative was just the means to the end. I mean there’s way worse genocides happening in African countries and Xinjiang China, but we don’t seem to be doing anything military to stop the injustice in those places.

No American government is going to go into any war just because DoD contractors want a war.  It's always thing were we need to do military action.  And then it becomes a two birds and one stone.  We do the military actions and the DoD contractors get their cuts and they in turn donate money to the campaigns. 

And when we are not at war one part of the isle is always talking up how we've invested more money into the military to make sure they are well equip and still the best military in the world.  All that means is DoD contractors got more money.  I was a soldier in the military.  Pay and living conditions.......how about we make sure those are good before we throw more money as something we don't need.  But I get it, DoD contractors doesn't make big bucks of of that stuff.

Now when it comes to the Iraq war......man that was totally unnecessary and completely politically driven.  Yet that war that started from a lie took decades to leave as well.  But I still think we got soldiers there, they just don't do combat missions any more.  

[phart010 | 1,708]

1 hour ago, FireHazard51 said:

No American government is going to go into any war just because DoD contractors want a war.  It's always thing were we need to do military action.  And then it becomes a two birds and one stone.  We do the military actions and the DoD contractors get their cuts and they in turn donate money to the campaigns. 

And when we are not at war one part of the isle is always talking up how we've invested more money into the military to make sure they are well equip and still the best military in the world.  All that means is DoD contractors got more money.  I was a soldier in the military.  Pay and living conditions.......how about we make sure those are good before we throw more money as something we don't need.  But I get it, DoD contractors doesn't make big bucks of of that stuff.

Now when it comes to the Iraq war......man that was totally unnecessary and completely politically driven.  Yet that war that started from a lie took decades to leave as well.  But I still think we got soldiers there, they just don't do combat missions any more.  

By the way I have complete respect for all those who served in these wars. I assume most everyone’s intentions were in the right place, regardless of whether it was a good idea to be over there.

[Link | 2,734]

On 8/22/2021 at 9:37 AM, phart010 said:

It’s an important distinction because it highlights the money trail.
 

Afghanistan was like a goose laying golden eggs.

Check this out (don’t mind it being on FoxNews.com it’s just a republished Associated Press article)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/story/halliburtons-iraq-afghanistan-contracts-at-600-million-and-growing.amp
 

No bid government contracts awarded to Halliburton for Afghanistan and Iraq? And no spending limits? WTF! But don’t worry, they clarified that the fact that Dick Cheney was former CEO to Halliburton had nothing to do with the contracts being awarded outside of the open bid process.

No wonder we stayed there so long. It almost makes you wonder if the motivation to go there was the money and if the whole war on terror narrative was just the means to the end. I mean there’s way worse genocides happening in African countries and Xinjiang China, but we don’t seem to be doing anything military to stop the injustice in those places.

I one million percent agree  that all this obscene amount of money was sucked off by rich scum and it’s bad and was all an intentional scheme. When you said the money is still “here” (owned by Americans)(as I understood your comment) my issue was that it’s still evaporated in the sense that we do not have anything to show for it.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Link