Pulling out of Afghanistan

[FireHazard51 | 2,052]

So Afghanistan is being ROLLED over by the Taliban and all I can say is fuck it, we should of pulled out years ago.  Let me first say that I have NOT been in Afghanistan but I have been in Iraq and saw first hand how a poor country could collectively give two shits about having a democratic country.  When you are so poor that you are just focused on just trying to live you don't get a shit about what kind of government you country is running.  If Iraq couldn't make it then Afghanistan has ZERO chances of keeping a stable democratic country.  It's so upsetting to think of all the soldiers who've died, been physically harmed, and the psychological issues and stresses on their families for what?  The same results was going to happen no matter how little or long we stayed there.  

So you know what, fuck that country.  If you want democracy then you got to fight and die for it.  Sadly there just isn't enough people who feel that way in that country to keep it working.  And shame on our government for not giving those translators a visa to live in our country.  Them and their families will die for serving by our soldiers and that's fucking wrong.  It's sickening to think how we've abandoned those who help keep our soldiers stay alive.  

I just had to vent about this.  I can't stand the news on how so many think we should stay there.  They have zero skin the game and think that by being their we are preventing America from being attacked.  People need to realize that everyday we are there, Americans are being attacked.  It's a war we'll never win and a war that will never end without the government being toppled by the Taliban.  I know what happens to soldiers deployed to there.  I know the hardship to puts on them and their family & love ones if they return.  It's just not worth it.  And just because someone decides to serve their country doesn't mean it's a life they volunteered to thrown away at a worthless war.  

[OptOut | 8,892]

I think the entire situation is deeply tragic, whichever way you look at it. The fact that 20 years of war, bloodshed, and trillions of dollars in costs amount to so little, that the Taliban were able to SO quickly and effortlessly roll RIGHT back into power after all that, it's just dumbfounding and deeply sad.

I feel absolutely for those people of Afghanistan who may have hoped for a more liberal and democratic future, obviously ESPECIALLY the women who will now suffer the worst of the abuses the Taliban will now enact.

In a strange way it feels as though the pecking order has been restored, the fact that it was only the presence of the US army holding together the weak and corrupt Afghan government, and as SOON as the US left the Taliban just filled that vacuum. It's not to say that the Taliban are the JUST rulers of Afghanistan, or that they rightfully deserve to be in terms of their ethics or politics, but simply that they currently are the strongest locus of power in the country. Now they are not being held back by external forces, that's it, they're back.

Could ANYTHING have prevented this, that I guess is the most pertinent question. The US just spent the better part of two DECADES blowing these fuckers to shit, and wouldn't you know it? Bombing a bunch of medieval peasants is a GREAT way to breed hatred and swell the ranks of your enemy on the ground.

A LOT of the Taliban's current fighters were children, or weren't even BORN when the Twin Towers fell. They have known NOTHING but US aggression their whole lives... If I lived in a shithole with ZERO economic prospects, surrounded by "freedom fighters" getting bombed to fuck by the great Satan since I was at my mother's teat, and probably most of my family was dead, I'd probably join the fuggin Taliban too! 

 

Anyway, yeah, sad all round, whatever way you look at it.

[OptOut | 8,892]

Oh, I will also say the USA and all other Nato countries involved in the war should absolutely be willing to take as MANY Afghan refugees as they possibly can, especially women and children. Women and children will now become the greatest victims of the Taliban, and it is absolutely SICKENING to think of what might happen to them if we don't help them.

[FireHazard51 | 2,052]

Dude, I REALLY feel bad for the women the girls of that country.  Many got to see a glimpse of what world could be like without horrible sexism.  It without a doubt sucks.  

As for your comment about Taliban and 9/11.  We invaded Afghanistan to get Al Qaeda and NOT the Taliban.   This is like when we invaded Iraq to get Sadam and next thing you know we are fighting insurgents.  If any country had a shot at being stable it was Iraq but we royally fucked that up within the first 6 months of the war that left the country crippled so the insurgency became a thing.

Edited August 17, 2021 by FireHazard51

[Dr. Morbis | 2,092]

I don't see why the US has to force their way of life on all other nations.  Afghanistan is nowhere near ready for a liberal democratic government.  Why isn't the US all up in Saudi Arabia's face for the way they treat women too?  Oh yeah, it's actually not about 'saving' people from that sort of fate...

[FireHazard51 | 2,052]

10 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

I don't see why the US has to force their way of life on all other nations.  Afghanistan is nowhere near ready for a liberal democratic government.  Why isn't the US all up in Saudi Arabia's face for the way they treat women too?  Oh yeah, it's actually not about 'saving' people from that sort of fate...

[OptOut | 8,892]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

I don't see why the US has to force their way of life on all other nations.  Afghanistan is nowhere near ready for a liberal democratic government.  Why isn't the US all up in Saudi Arabia's face for the way they treat women too?  Oh yeah, it's actually not about 'saving' people from that sort of fate...

I mean, it's also ironic that the US actually funded the Taliban in the first place during the Soviet invasion in the 1980's, and thus a LOT of Afghanistan's problems with extremism are ALSO a direct result of US intervention... There are quite a few turtles to count the way down on this.

A big problem with trying to consider Afghanistan as a modern democratic nation is the fact that Afghanistan has never even HAD a strong national identity as a coherent nation state in the first place. It is a MASSIVE country, poor and rural, mountainous with almost medieval infrastructure throughout large parts of the country. Power within Afghanistan has always been decentralised and localised.

Most of the time America spent trying to wrangle the country into a functional state over the last 20 years was simply a process of trying to get opposing factions of warlords to agree not to kill each other! To think of Afghanistan in terms of a modern nation state is a terrible mischaracterisation of what the country is actually like!

It's no wonder the weak centralised government fell so quickly and easily, they had very little actual control or power in the first place! When you see the Taliban on TV walking into governor's offices and local palaces and government buildings, you notice a couple of things. They are all men, they are all wearing Islamic dress, and they are all carrying assault rifles. This is the rigid projection of power that is necessary to keep control of a country as weak and decentralised as Afghanistan. 

[Californication | 1,490]

I agree with a lot of what was said by everyone. This should have been ended so many other times and the media blitz against Biden (who I am not a fan up) is kind of ridiculous. 

Also, the framing that the U.S. was trying to build a Democracy there is a pipe dream. This was a military and corporate giveaway. 

[OptOut | 8,892]

Just now, Californication said:

I agree with a lot of what was said by everyone. This should have been ended so many other times and the media blitz against Biden (who I am not a fan up) is kind of ridiculous. 

Also, the framing that the U.S. was trying to build a Democracy there is a pipe dream. This was a military and corporate giveaway. 

Yeah, I mean Biden was a big part of this for all the years he was vice-president and before that too as an embedded part of the US establishment for like a hundred years or however old he is. Of course he's not solely, nor even primarily to blame, of course, George W. and all the neocons take the MAJORITY of the blame for getting in there and Iraq in the first place, but lets face it there's more than enough blood to share around.

Then again, Biden shouldn't necessarily be criticised just on the back of this decision to withdraw... It's been a long slow drawn out winding down of troop deployments since the Obama administration, and continued under Trump too. NOTHING seems to have been done over all the time they had to secure an actual solid future for the country without major US military support. It's a COLOSSOL fuck-up, of a kind that only twenty years of mismanagement could have produced. 

[Brickman | 4,017]

All well said points.

The scary thing is the US has spent roughly $2trillion with not much to show for it. Absolutely crazy when you think what that could have done for their own citizens.

If I was living in the US I’d be cheering this is finally done with. Hopefully now the country can look inwards and build up its own country and citizens.

Also it’s scary to think that after WW2 the US has essentially “lost” the majority of wars it has been involved in. Doesn’t give the west much hope if China ever really did start a war.

[Californication | 1,490]

1 hour ago, Shmup said:

All well said points.

The scary thing is the US has spent roughly $2trillion with not much to show for it. Absolutely crazy when you think what that could have done for their own citizens.

If I was living in the US I’d be cheering this is finally done with. Hopefully now the country can look inwards and build up its own country and citizens.

Also it’s scary to think that after WW2 the US has essentially “lost” the majority of wars it has been involved in. Doesn’t give the west much hope if China ever really did start a war.

Mmmm. The U.S. is in a perpetual state of war. I don't think win/lose is really the goal it's more of our way of increasing government spending with next to zero complaints from Democrats and Republicans.

[Brickman | 4,017]

7 minutes ago, Californication said:

Mmmm. The U.S. is in a perpetual state of war. I don't think win/lose is really the goal it's more of our way of increasing government spending with next to zero complaints from Democrats and Republicans.

That’s really sad then. All those lives and money lost for little to no positive outcome. Adding to that all that money that could have been funnelled to infrastructure and the citizens.

[Kguillemette | 1,547]

Regardless of any of the politics of this situation, this is a terrible and tragic outcome. I worry deeply for those occupied by the Taliban, because they in all likely hood are now trapped in ruthless oppression, especially women and children.

[a3quit4s | 4,126]

I mean Biden literally said he was going to pull out of Afghanistan and then he did it. Are people mad to have a president that sticks to his promises? Honestly people will never be happy. 
 

I think the most alarming thing is how organized the Taliban are and how much military intelligence sucks no matter how much money the American taxpayers give them. 
 

It been past due to cut military spending in half. 

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,018]

21 minutes ago, a3quit4s said:

I mean Biden literally said he was going to pull out of Afghanistan and then he did it. Are people mad to have a president that sticks to his promises? Honestly people will never be happy. 
 

I think the most alarming thing is how organized the Taliban are and how much military intelligence sucks no matter how much money the American taxpayers give them. 
 

It been past due to cut military spending in half. 

Unfortunately pulling out of Afghanistan won't make a dent in the military budget as we had 3000 troops there. And there hasn't been any military deaths since mid 2020 as the Taliban knows they just get skull fucked when they mess w our troops. And both Obama and Trump said they were going to pull out so Biden saying that fell on deaf ears. I know I kinda rolled my eyes when he said it just bc it has said by every candidate for a decade. 

Just a reminder, we didn't go into Afghanistan to set up a democracy. I mean, that kinda became the political talking point. We went in there bc it was where the Taliban orchestrated an attack that killed 3000 Americans on 9/11. The democracy talk was just a result of getting those inbred who are Taliban members out of control of the region and back into their caves. 

We're talking about people who behead and stone people in the middle of the town square for a wearing the wrong clothes. Skip to about 2 mins in. The man says nothing will happen to a woman who doesn't comply with their dress code and the next day a woman is killed for not complying 

https://youtu.be/MTVfCpLrIrc

People just read the headlines and forget about the people who live in constant fear of being publicly murdered by the Taliban. They're a gang of murderous thugs that have been plotting this day since 2004. Say what you want about

Trump but he didn't advertise our moves in the middle east like those before him. I think the play here would've been to keep reducing military presence over time to see how few troops we actually needed there to keep these assholes underground. Making a huge media advertisment about pulling out on the 20th anniversary of 9/11 was strictly a PR move for Biden and it was a dumb one. The intern that coordinated that one should be fired immediately. 

[Californication | 1,490]

2 hours ago, Shmup said:

That’s really sad then. All those lives and money lost for little to no positive outcome. Adding to that all that money that could have been funnelled to infrastructure and the citizens.

That's now how America works.

If they talk about increasing programs that help people; conservatives complain, they say it's too expensive,  and call Americans spoiled and lazy the never pass the bill. If they talk about increasing the military buget and someone complains they call them anti-american or say they don't care about our troops and then pass the bill every single time.

The military budget/appropriations is part of the process the politicians pay back their donors for helping get them elected.

[Californication | 1,490]

@RegularGuyGamer

The Taliban trained in Afgahanistan, but they were bank rolled by Saudis, the majority of the hi-jackers were Saudi, and a lot of the leadership went to Pakistan decades early on. The U.S. did not do anything to the Saudis, they stayed away from Pakistan until Obama went in there to grab Bin Ladin.

The Taliban offered Bin Ladin up a couple years into the war and Bush/Cheney didn't accept Osama because they didn't want to lose their talking point for not ending the war.

 

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

During the whole Trump presidency people were talking about how he was the worst president ever. And of course he sucked but I kept saying it was still Bush (well, Cheney by proxy). We won't be feeling the effects of anything Trump did in 20 years. But here we are, 20 years after 9/11, pulling out of Afghanistan and watching it crumble. All thanks to war criminals Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc.

It's a very sad thing. To say "fuck that country" is your choice but you know those people exist and you know they are going to be in pain. It's a really sad situation. It needed to be figured out years ago, except it was already impossible to be figured out. 

But hey, at least the War on Terror was successful: 

 

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,018]

14 minutes ago, Californication said:

The U.S. did not do anything to the Saudis, they stayed away from Pakistan until Obama went in there to grab Bin Ladin.

Well duh no one ever holds the Saudi's accountable. Russia also has funded the hell out of the Taliban but we don't go after countries who fund terrorists at much as we do the actual terrorists. Also we stayed out of Pakistan, until we had to go in for Bin Ladin and other leaders.

 

16 minutes ago, Californication said:

The Taliban offered Bin Ladin up a couple years into the war and Bush/Cheney didn't accept Osama because they didn't want to lose their talking point for not ending the war.

You gotta source for this? 

[Californication | 1,490]

28 minutes ago, RegularGuyGamer said:

You gotta source for this? 

Prettt sure if you google it you will get multiple sources, I think it is common knowledge.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

3 hours ago, Californication said:

Mmmm. The U.S. is in a perpetual state of war. I don't think win/lose is really the goal it's more of our way of increasing government spending with next to zero complaints from Democrats and Republicans.

It's almost like more taxing and spending is the only thing they can seem to agree on.

[Californication | 1,490]

7 minutes ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

It's almost like more taxing and spending is the only thing they can seem to agree on.

Taxing maybe. The Republicans pushed through that crazy tax bill, but there where dems that supported it even if they didn't make their voices heard. 

Outside of military/corporate spending I don't think the sides agree much. The Dems had to pull the Republicans by the ear for every stimulus, and even this infrastructure bill which most people want.

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,018]

30 minutes ago, Californication said:

Prettt sure if you google it you will get multiple sources, I think it is common knowledge.

Doesn't seem as, uh, black and white.

"Taliban 'ready to discuss' Bin Laden handover if bombing halts

The Taliban would be ready to discuss handing over Osama bin Laden to a neutral country if the US halted the bombing of Afghanistan, a senior Taliban official said today.

 

Afghanistan's deputy prime minister, Haji Abdul Kabir, told reporters that the Taliban would require evidence that Bin Laden was behind the September 11 terrorist attacks in the US.

 

"If the Taliban is given evidence that Osama bin Laden is involved" and the bombing campaign stopped, "we would be ready to hand him over to a third country", Mr Kabir added."

[Californication | 1,490]

12 minutes ago, RegularGuyGamer said:

Doesn't seem as, uh, black and white.

"Taliban 'ready to discuss' Bin Laden handover if bombing halts

The Taliban would be ready to discuss handing over Osama bin Laden to a neutral country if the US halted the bombing of Afghanistan, a senior Taliban official said today.

 

Afghanistan's deputy prime minister, Haji Abdul Kabir, told reporters that the Taliban would require evidence that Bin Laden was behind the September 11 terrorist attacks in the US.

 

"If the Taliban is given evidence that Osama bin Laden is involved" and the bombing campaign stopped, "we would be ready to hand him over to a third country", Mr Kabir added."

If they asked for us to stop bombing we could have take Bin Ladin and left ground forces. We could have taken Bin Ladin and kept bombing. The thing is Bin Ladin was the face of the war's. 

Didn't the U.S. also not move in on Bin Ladin when they had verification he was moving through that mountain pass also?

[FireHazard51 | 2,052]

2 hours ago, RegularGuyGamer said:

Unfortunately pulling out of Afghanistan won't make a dent in the military budget as we had 3000 troops there. And there hasn't been any military deaths since mid 2020 as the Taliban knows they just get skull fucked when they mess w our troops. And both Obama and Trump said they were going to pull out so Biden saying that fell on deaf ears. I know I kinda rolled my eyes when he said it just bc it has said by every candidate for a decade. 

Just a reminder, we didn't go into Afghanistan to set up a democracy. I mean, that kinda became the political talking point. We went in there bc it was where the Taliban orchestrated an attack that killed 3000 Americans on 9/11. The democracy talk was just a result of getting those inbred who are Taliban members out of control of the region and back into their caves. 

We're talking about people who behead and stone people in the middle of the town square for a wearing the wrong clothes. Skip to about 2 mins in. The man says nothing will happen to a woman who doesn't comply with their dress code and the next day a woman is killed for not complying 

https://youtu.be/MTVfCpLrIrc

People just read the headlines and forget about the people who live in constant fear of being publicly murdered by the Taliban. They're a gang of murderous thugs that have been plotting this day since 2004. Say what you want about

Trump but he didn't advertise our moves in the middle east like those before him. I think the play here would've been to keep reducing military presence over time to see how few troops we actually needed there to keep these assholes underground. Making a huge media advertisment about pulling out on the 20th anniversary of 9/11 was strictly a PR move for Biden and it was a dumb one. The intern that coordinated that one should be fired immediately. 

I think Biden knew the band aid had to be pulled.  He's not going to run for a second terms so he's a lame duck president from the start of his presidency.  If anything he may be trying to take the heat for shit so that his successor doesn't have to deal with it them selves.  It's a shit job but someone has got to pull the plug on the vegetative state of Afghanistan.  No miracle is going to save it.

1 hour ago, Californication said:

@RegularGuyGamer

The Taliban trained in Afgahanistan, but they were bank rolled by Saudis, the majority of the hi-jackers were Saudi, and a lot of the leadership went to Pakistan decades early on. The U.S. did not do anything to the Saudis, they stayed away from Pakistan until Obama went in there to grab Bin Ladin.

The Taliban offered Bin Ladin up a couple years into the war and Bush/Cheney didn't accept Osama because they didn't want to lose their talking point for not ending the war.

Why do people constantly get this confused.  It wasn't the Taliban that attacked us on 9/11.  It was Al Qaeda that attacked us and that group was allowed to exist in Taliban controlled Afghanistan.  

In 1996, Taliban-controlled Afghanistan provided a perfect staging ground for al-Qaeda.[175] While not officially working together, Al-Qaeda enjoyed the Taliban's protection and supported the regime in such a strong symbiotic relationship that many Western observers dubbed the Taliban's Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan as, "the world's first terrorist-sponsored state."[176] However, at this time, only Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates recognized the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan.

In response to the 1998 United States embassy bombings, an al-Qaeda base in Khost Province was attacked by the United States during Operation Infinite Reach.

While in Afghanistan, the Taliban government tasked al-Qaeda with the training of Brigade 055, an elite element of the Taliban's army. The Brigade mostly consisted of foreign fighters, veterans from the Soviet Invasion, and adherents to the ideology of the mujahideen. In November 2001, as Operation Enduring Freedom had toppled the Taliban government, many Brigade 055 fighters were captured or killed, and those who survived were thought to have escaped into Pakistan along with bin Laden.[177]

By the end of 2008, some sources reported that the Taliban had severed any remaining ties with al-Qaeda,[178] however, there is reason to doubt this.[179] According to senior US military intelligence officials, there were fewer than 100 members of al-Qaeda remaining in Afghanistan in 2009.[180] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda

The whole thing in Afghanistan was scope creep.  The initial goal was to take out Bin Laden and land a massive blow to Al Qaeda.  If you want to attack anyone wo supported Al Qaeda we'd need to invade more than half of the Middle East.  We should of military fucked Al Qaeda up and then used diplomatic pressure/force on those who directly supported Al Qaeda.  Taliban is a extremists religious group that has no government to force diplomatic pressure/force on.  We should of just ignored them because it was a fight we weren't going to win.  You want to do a couple air strikes on them?  Maybe, but that would like make them NEED to attack America back to save face.  Then WE have to attack them back.  It starts a never ending cycle.  

We should of just smitted Bin Laden and left Al Qaeda dead or scared shitless at the massive bounty for their heads.  Effectively making sure no one would ever claim to be Al Qaeda again.  That's how the US should act.  Any other group who wants to poke the bear should realize that we'll make their group never exist after poking us.  And once we complete that mission we just walk away form the burning rubble.  

Edited August 17, 2021 by FireHazard51