What constitutes a "legit" playthrough for classic games?

[Strikezone1 | 154]

I like these kind of topics. They usually always generate some good discussion (Thanks @CasualCart )

Re: Continues - I agree with most that continues absolutely count. And I say this as someone who pursues no-death runs in games (my current NDR count is at 130 NES games). It really comes down to personal satisfaction. Is barely limping through a game on your last continue to beat it maybe once or twice good enough? I'd say for most it is; that is probably the norm. They completed the game and saw the ending... For myself and some others, it isn't good enough. I want to learn the ins & outs of the game, master it, and enjoy the extra sense of accomplishment of pulling off a NDR, or at the very least a 1CC. The drawback to this is it's more of a time commitment to each game. Games in my backlog get crossed a lot slower than if I were good with just beating a game once and moving on to the next. But I am perfectly okay with that.

Re: Turbo controllers - I totally understand the argument that they are acceptable, and in many cases more practical (e.g. Silver Surfer). In my personal opinion, they are an outside source to gain an extra advantage. Many of the good shooters/shmups offer auto-fire as a power-up, and if you die and lose it then you deal with the consequence of dying and not having it, as frustrating/shitty as that may be.

[Gloves | 11,779]

Just now, peg said:

How can you say you've beaten the game when the game itself straight up tells you that you lost?  What the fuck is not clear about "game over"?

 

The fact that "game over" only states that the game is literally over. If you wanna get literal about it, getting a game over on any game COULD be considered beating it! It's over! Finished! Done! You did it! 

[Gloves | 11,779]

2 minutes ago, Strikezone1 said:

I like these kind of topics. They usually always generate some good discussion (Thanks @CasualCart )

Re: Continues - I agree with most that continues absolutely count. And I say this as someone who pursues no-death runs in games (my current NDR count is at 130 NES games). It really comes down to personal satisfaction. Is barely limping through a game on your last continue to beat it maybe once or twice good enough? I'd say for most it is; that is probably the norm. They completed the game and saw the ending... For myself and some others, it isn't good enough. I want to learn the ins & outs of the game, master it, and enjoy the extra sense of accomplishment of pulling off a NDR, or at the very least a 1CC. The drawback to this is it's more of a time commitment to each game. Games in my backlog get crossed a lot slower than if I were good with just beating a game once and moving on to the next. But I am perfectly okay with that.

Re: Turbo controllers - I totally understand the argument that they are acceptable, and in many cases more practical (e.g. Silver Surfer). In my personal opinion, they are an outside source to gain an extra advantage. Many of the good shooters/shmups offer auto-fire as a power-up, and if you die and lose it then you deal with the consequence of dying and not having it, as frustrating/shitty as that may be.

Why do you call it an "NDR" when there's already an established term, "1LC", which aligns perfectly with its sister term "1CC" which you also use? 

[Strikezone1 | 154]

1 minute ago, Gloves said:

Why do you call it an "NDR" when there's already an established term, "1LC", which aligns perfectly with its sister term "1CC" which you also use? 

Are you "getting literal about it" as you so eloquently put in the post above questioning semantics with PEG? 

[Gloves | 11,779]

3 minutes ago, Gloves said:

The fact that "game over" only states that the game is literally over. If you wanna get literal about it, getting a game over on any game COULD be considered beating it! It's over! Finished! Done! You did it! 

To expand upon this, you can easily simply say that losing all of your lives constitutes a "Bad ending", which plenty of games have built into them! Heck, even the Zelda timeline itself has a canon universe built around the concept of the Hero of Time failing in his mission! 

Suddenly, I have a nice easy way to clear my backlog! 

[Gloves | 11,779]

1 minute ago, Strikezone1 said:

Are you "getting literal about it" as you so eloquently put in the post above questioning semantics with PEG? 

Nope, just curious about the use of the term you used. 

[Strikezone1 | 154]

1 minute ago, Gloves said:

Nope, just curious about the use of the term you used. 

Kinda sounded like it, but it's all good... No death run or 'NDR' isn't all that uncommon of a term/acronym. I've seen many people use it.

[Gloves | 11,779]

5 minutes ago, Strikezone1 said:

Kinda sounded like it, but it's all good... No death run or 'NDR' isn't all that uncommon of a term/acronym. I've seen many people use it.

I was mostly asking because we have a dictionary of terms so when people say that term you can hover it with your mouse and it'll tell you what it means. If you say NDR is a common term (I've not seen it used much) then I'd happily add it to the dictionary.  

[Strikezone1 | 154]

1 minute ago, Gloves said:

I was mostly asking because we have a dictionary of terms so when people say that term you can hover it with your mouse and it'll tell you what it means. If you say NDR is a common term (I've not seen it used much) then I'd happily add it to the dictionary.  

I wasn't aware of the dictionary feature on the site, so thanks for letting me know. I will use the 1LC acronym while on this site from now on.

But yeah perhaps NDR isn't as commonly used as 1LC, but I see it used quite a bit over different media platforms.

[Gloves | 11,779]

4 minutes ago, Strikezone1 said:

I wasn't aware of the dictionary feature on the site, so thanks for letting me know. I will use the 1LC acronym while on this site from now on.

But yeah perhaps NDR isn't as commonly used as 1LC, but I see it used quite a bit over different media platforms.

That's alright, you can use whatever terms you're used to. I've added NDR so it's clear.

Test:

NDR

1LC

1CC

[Gloves | 11,779]

3 minutes ago, ChickenTendas said:

1CC is one credit clear. One continue clear is different lol

Maybe you could add a second definition

[Khromak | 768]

1 minute ago, Gloves said:

Starting to regret telling users about the features now, aren't you?

[Khromak | 768]

53 minutes ago, peg said:

How can you say you've beaten the game when the game itself straight up tells you that you lost?  What the fuck is not clear about "game over"?

 

What if a game says "Game over" when you run out of lives, but then you make it to the end (after continuing) and the game also says "Congratulations! You are a great hero and have saved the world!" That's kind of mixed messaging, don't you think?

[Gloves | 11,779]

2 minutes ago, Khromak said:

Starting to regret telling users about the features now, aren't you?

I dunno why I do anything anymore.

[Sumez | 2,956]

5 hours ago, guitarzombie said:

Yes.  Again were not talking about the arcade.  Whats the difference between someone beating the game in one credit or many?  Skill.  Do the people who designed the game care?  No.  Actually they were designed to make money, so they wanted you to spend a lot to get to the end to see the ending, so you get a sense of closure and relieving that tension.

Man, that's a really sad perspective on video games
I know it's probably what you mean, but it sounds almost like you're advocating not caring how you play a game yourself.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Sumez

[Sumez | 2,956]

"No death run" is a common term, but I've never seen anyone use the abbreviation "NDR".

1LC or No-miss are the typical ones.

[peg | 371]

I actually have much more respect for people that just use save states instead of continues because they (at least 99% of them) at least admit they aren't playing the game for real.

[guitarzombie | 924]

10 minutes ago, Sumez said:

Man, that's a really sad perspective on video games
I know it's probably what you mean, but it sounds almost like you're advocating not caring how you play a game yourself.

Please, you're talking to someone that beat DooM Eternal and its DLC on Nightmare with a controller, Mutant Virus, 1cced Silver Surfer and 1cced Metal Slug 3.  But I don't expect other people who beat those games not like that invalid.

What are the point of video games?  To enjoy and for relaxation. 

Games were tougher when I was a kid MOSTLY because of the hold over of arcade machines making money.  Also for replayability because they were so short.  Theres no game thats too hard, its just about how much time do you want to spend memorizing every minor detail for one game.  For example, Battletoads.  The game is only deemed hard because it requires a TON of time invested in it to memorize patterns and enemy placements, and eventually ways of beating it.  How long would it take someone to really sit and be able to beat it, within 1 continue?  100 hours? 1000 hours?  In the end, if you can finish it in all 3 (or 5?  cant remember) continues in 50 hours, but need 100 or 500 to do it in 1 continue, is it worth it?  Who's gonna be impressed with the time you spent to get there?

Ultimately its up to the person if its WORTH the time invested in the game.  For most people, the general audience, they want some challenge, but not to be beat over the head and find it stressful or cheap to die a lot because the game expects close to perfection.  Once the n64 hit, they were able to shy away from the '100 hours to beat' thing and started to think of games you want to go and relax to.  Being able to say you can beat some game in 1 continue is only impressive to people who are hardcore fans of that game.  Casuals just want to finish it.  And you know who they cater games towards? Casuals.  They want you to finish their work.  So to set your own self imposed limits to how you think a game should be beat is fine, but just for YOU.  Developers want you to enjoy and COMPLETE their games, with some effort, for the thrill of the challenge, but not to the point where its almost like school work to analyze every level/section.  Of course they do have hard modes for people who either want a challenge, or beat the game and are better at it.  Sometimes games are made specifically for those people like those "I Wanna Be The Guy" games.

So yeah, finishing a game using what the developers give you, is it.

If you go past that, then it gets ridiculous.  Alright now I think if you get 1 ups thats cheating and you didnt beat the game.  Well, NOW I feel that if you die ONCE you didn't beat it.    

I think really the problem is the definition of the word 'game'.  I think 'game over' was really intended for that round of play, because typically the only thing you really lose is points which after the arcades when games didn't have endings didnt mean anything anyway.  I don't even think theres a game on the NES that saves your score with a battery.  It erases the ram when you shut it off. 

The actual game isn't over until it shoves you back to the title screen, or you shut it off.  Which is what I believe the developers intended.

[Gloves | 11,779]

@guitarzombie come on man you and I both know Silver Surfer is an easy game. 

[guitarzombie | 924]

5 minutes ago, Gloves said:

@guitarzombie come on man you and I both know Silver Surfer is an easy game. 

Haha well yeah.  Not nearly as hard as other shooters but its a good example to use!  No turbo controller either.

[Strikezone1 | 154]

1 hour ago, Gloves said:

@guitarzombie come on man you and I both know Silver Surfer is an easy game. 

 Calling Silver Surfer "easy" might be a bit of a stretch... but I agree, it's probably somewhere around 10th as far as hardest shmups on the NES go.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

11 hours ago, ChickenTendas said:

That's actually pathetic. Let people define their own goals/standards. It's their experience and their choice.

I envy the people who can beat a game with rewind/save states and move on. It would be nice to not spend 15 hours on something like Solomon's Key

Semantics, that's the whole issue... You may envy the people who play through with rewind/save states and move on, but you sure as shit can't envy people who "beat" the game that way, because that ain't beating the damn game!!!

Oh and I've always used the term No Death Run for, well, for no death runs, but I've never seen the acronym NDR ever in my life. I don't mind 1LC, but no miss is meaningless to me... wtf is a miss?  You missed getting a power up?  You missed killing an enemy?  Oh.... you "missed" dying.  The term miss is waaaaaaaay too ambiguous to be using it for No Death Runs/1LC's...

[OptOut | 8,884]

***Looks in thread***

 

 

 

 

NOPE!

[fcgamer | 4,724]

For Famicom, turbo controllers totally count. The Twin Famicom had turbo controllers hardwired into the machine and the machine was licensed by Nintendo. Therefore using turbo controllers on there is okay

[TDIRunner | 2,740]

20 hours ago, ChickenTendas said:

That's actually pathetic. Let people define their own goals/standards. It's their experience and their choice.

I envy the people who can beat a game with rewind/save states and move on. It would be nice to not spend 15 hours on something like Solomon's Key

You shouldn't say that's pathetic without knowing the full context of the thread.  

In the thread he was referring to, the person who beat the game using save states was claiming that the game was much easier then everyone had told him and implied that he was a better gamer than most due to his ability to beat the game quickly after playing the game for the first time ever.

Very few people in the thread (if any) cared that he beat the game using save states.  They were arguing against him because he claimed that the game was super easy despite cheating.