Do You Consider "Dizzy the Adventurer" part of the NES set?

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

So, I'm restructuring my personal lists and I'm trying to consolidate every major console from Nintendo, Sega, Atari, and a few others (Coleco, Intellivision, AES, and TG-16) which got me thinking about console add-ons (32X, 64DD, etc.) and console bridges (e-Reader, Super Game Boy, etc.)

It's easy to say that a game like "Sonic CD" is a Sega CD game, and not a Sega Genesis game. But if we use that logic to cover all systems uniformly then we must conclude that the US NES Library does not have 768 titles, but rather 767 titles.

The reason being? The Aladdin Deck Enhancer

The Aladdin Deck Enhancer has a library of seven games.

1. Big Nose Freaks Out
2. Dizzy the Adventurer
3. Fantastic Adventures of Dizzy
4. Linus Spacehead's Cosmic Crusade
5. Micro Machines
6. Quattro Adventure
7. Quattro Sports

Six of these games have standalone releases for the NES that do not require the Aladdin Deck Enhancer to play them. But one of them, the one in bold does not. Dizzy the Adventurer is to the NES, and Sonic CD is to the Sega Genesis.

As a sidenote, The Fantastic Adventures of Dizzy has differences from the NES release.

...

The NES also has its own slew of console add-ons across the pond. You might call it the "Famicom" but it's still the same game platform. We all know about the Famicom Disk System, but what of the Bandai's Datach Joint Rom System, or Epoch's Barcode Battler II? Should any of these be considered NES games? I don't think so.

But the final nail in the coffin?

There's actually no evidence that the Aladdin Deck Enhancer (and therefor Dizzy the Adventurer) was ever even released at retail! So, even if this game counts as an NES game, it still should be disqualified due to the fact that it was never actually released.

...like Cheetahmen II.

Edited April 23, 2020 by ThePhleo

[LeatherRebel5150 | 1,056]

I get the logic and can agree to the premise. But is it true these were never released? I always assumed they were. Either way wouldn't these be unlicensed anyway?

[fusoyaff2 | 50]

I don't consider any of the unlicensed games part of the NES set. To me, they're in the same category as the crap Limited Run Games has been selling for NES lately. Some people consider Sunday Funday: The Ride, and not Wario's Woods, to be the last official NES released. But Wario's Woods had an ESRB rating and Sunday didn't, despite coming out a year later,. which to me means that the publisher didn't even go through the proper channels to release it. So why is Sunday considered part of the 768 and a homebrew game sold a couple years later isn't?

Edited April 23, 2020 by fusoyaff2
Sunday Funday, not Bible Buffet

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

11 minutes ago, LeatherRebel5150 said:

I get the logic and can agree to the premise. But is it true these were never released? I always assumed they were. Either way wouldn't these be unlicensed anyway?

From what I know and understand, the Aladdin Deck Enhancer was first publicly displayed in summer '92 at CES as "The Aladdin System" and then fully unveiled in January '93 at the Winter CES as the "Aladdin Deck Enhancer" Camerica filed for bankruptcy in Summer 1993.

Mike Etler, father of the original NES list purchased the stock of Aladdin Deck Enhancers and sold them in his store in Toms River, NJ in 1996.

[fusoyaff2 | 50]

14 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

Mike Etler, father of the original NES list purchased the stock of Aladdin Deck Enhancers and sold them in his store in Toms River, NJ in 1996.

Oh so that explains why they're all listed as A+ on his list. He was out to make a profit!

[LeatherRebel5150 | 1,056]

Makes sense why Ive seen a bunch of them, being Im in NJ

[The Count | 527]

No. Where's the poll though?

Edited April 23, 2020 by The Count

[Tulpa | 3,492]

42 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

Mike Etler, father of the original NES list purchased the stock of Aladdin Deck Enhancers and sold them in his store in Toms River, NJ in 1996.

 

28 minutes ago, fusoyaff2 said:

Oh so that explains why they're all listed as A+ on his list. He was out to make a profit!

I don't think he had the entire stock. There was like 8 pallets found later that plunged the price, which is why you can still find tons of sealed copies.

 

As far as counting, they work in an NES, and were at least sold at retail. The variants are variants, collect them if you want, but I think Dizzy has to be on the list as it's exclusive, and an NES game.

[NesQuest | 93]

I do not.  Only counting licensed North American releases. 
 

Pretty cool item though!!!!

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

1 hour ago, Tulpa said:

I don't think he had the entire stock. There was like 8 pallets found later that plunged the price, which is why you can still find tons of sealed copies.

As far as counting, they work in an NES, and were at least sold at retail. The variants are variants, collect them if you want, but I think Dizzy has to be on the list as it's exclusive, and an NES game.

Correct. He had a stock of a few thousand I think?

Though, the cartridges don’t work on the NES without the Aladdin Deck Enhancer, even if you matched the pins up and wired them to the NES manually...the hardware to run the software just is not in the NES or cartridge itself.

It be literally like trying to put a 32X cartridge into a Sega Genesis without a 32X console.

This is all a fun thought experiment though. It’s common enough that it’s easy to “catch Em all” but I think they’re their own set of unique games on their own unique platform.

Also, Theres a ton of console add on platforms out there.

NES has Famicom Disk System, Datach, and Barcode Battler II, I think some Karaeoke thing too.

SNES has Satellaview and Super Game Boy

N64 has 64DD

Gamecube has eReader, and GBA Player

Gameboy Advance has eReader

Genesis has 32X & CD

Jaguar has Jaguar CD

TG-16 has TGCD

These are all console add-ons with their own unique libraries of games, exclusive from their required parent consoles to run.

[DoctorEncore | 3,691]

I think there is a little bit of confusion in the comments due to the wording in your original post.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the point you're trying to make is that there are two sets of NES-related Camerica/Codemasters releases. There is an Aladdin Deck Enhancer set which is made up of seven games (Dizzy the Adventurer being the sole exclusive) and is akin to the 32X add-on for the Genesis/Mega Drive. And then there is the Camerica/Codemasters NES set which is made up of 6 unlicensed games.

So, back to your original question: "Do You Consider "Dizzy the Adventurer" part of the NES set?"

My answer is no. I would consider it the sole exclusive within the seven game Aladdin Deck Enhancer set.

Clear as mud, right?

[Tulpa | 3,492]

1 hour ago, ThePhleo said:

Correct. He had a stock of a few thousand I think?

Though, the cartridges don’t work on the NES without the Aladdin Deck Enhancer, even if you matched the pins up and wired them to the NES manually...the hardware to run the software just is not in the NES or cartridge itself.

It be literally like trying to put a 32X cartridge into a Sega Genesis without a 32X console.

This is all a fun thought experiment though. It’s common enough that it’s easy to “catch Em all” but I think they’re their own set of unique games on their own unique platform.

Also, Theres a ton of console add on platforms out there.

NES has Famicom Disk System, Datach, and Barcode Battler II, I think some Karaeoke thing too.

SNES has Satellaview and Super Game Boy

N64 has 64DD

Gamecube has eReader, and GBA Player

Gameboy Advance has eReader

Genesis has 32X & CD

Jaguar has Jaguar CD

TG-16 has TGCD

These are all console add-ons with their own unique libraries of games, exclusive from their required parent consoles to run.

There's a difference though. The others were addons to play different media and enhancements. The Sega CD was a CD, taking advantage of the extra storage. Likewise, the 32x was a 32 bit game system playing 32 bit games.

 

The Aladdin Deck Enhancer was none of these. The game code is still an NES game. You can take the ROM of the game and put it on an Everdrive and it'll play just fine. The only thing the Deck Enhancer did was move the lockout chip override to the addon so Camerica could sell the games cheaper.

Or am I missing something?

Edited April 24, 2020 by Tulpa

[8bitsupremacy | 208]

I've always wondered this: if Dizzy the Adventurer (the Aladdin cart) is universally considered to be counted toward the set, and both Tengen versions of Gauntlet/Pac-Man/RBI are already generally counted as 6 games instead of 3 (despite being indentical games, just grey licensed vs black unlicensed shells) toward the set total...then why would the other 6 Aladdin games that AREN'T Dizzy not be counted but only Dizzy is?  I get that they are the same games as the gold cart Camerica versions for NES, but they should be counted as 12 carts (6 Aladdin and 6 NES gold carts) if one is to apply the same logic with the three Tengen games that have two different cart versions each...right?  Consistency, or something...

Edited April 24, 2020 by 8bitsupremacy

[Tulpa | 3,492]

11 minutes ago, 8bitsupremacy said:

I've always wondered this: if Dizzy the Adventurer (the Aladdin cart) is universally considered to be counted toward the set, and both Tengen versions of Gauntlet/Pac-Man/RBI are already generally counted as 6 games instead of 3 (despite being indentical games, just grey licensed vs black unlicensed shells) toward the set total...then why would the other 6 Aladdin games that AREN'T Dizzy not be counted but only Dizzy is?  I get that they are the same games as the gold cart Camerica versions for NES, but they should be counted as 12 carts (6 Aladdin and 6 NES gold carts) if one is to apply the same logic with the three Tengen games that have two different cart versions each...right?  Consistency, or something...

Do the licensed and unlicensed Tengen carts have different title screens? Like, "Licensed by Nintendo"?

That might factor in. I was always under the impression that it went by unique game code.

(Of course, that ignores the Caltron/Myriad situation, but eh...)

[8bitsupremacy | 208]

I've never paid enough attention to the title screens, but I'm sure it's something like that (I assume) that denotes the separation.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

Yes, the licensed vs unlicensed Tengens have the added/missing Licensed by Nintendo scrawl, so the code is technically different.  This ADE issue is really fuzzy though.  They're not their own hybrid add-on for the reasons stated by Tulpa, but they are also not plug and play with an NES without the "Enhancer."  The question you posed never comes up though, for a very good reason: if you collect licensed only, you generally don't want them, and if you collect unlicensed, you generally do.

My question to you, ThePhleo, is this: if you're already determined to collect hundreds and hundreds of cartridges for a console you really like, what's one more?  (or even seven more?).  I mean, the Aladdin games are all dirt cheap (except maybe Micro Machines?) and if you love the NES, why not get a quirky add-on like this that plays even more games?  Either way, if I were in your shoes, I would at the very least get Dizzy the Adventurer along with Fantastic Adventures of Dizzy, since you have to collect 250 Stars instead of 100, so that makes it a different gaming experience altogether.

And back to the "is the title screen different?" issue, how would you feel about a game like The Untouchables, where both version have identical gameplay, but the re-release has an entirely new title screen designed to match the new artwork on the redesigned box?

I guess, at the end of the day, if you're pretty much a full set collector for the NES anyway, why stop one game short of the goal???

Edited April 24, 2020 by Dr. Morbis

[Tanooki | 4,933]

Tengen would have removed Licensed by Nintendo for the few that squeaked out in both styles.  I had the licensed Indiana Jones ToD in the day, but since that time when I've had the game I've had the Tengen one and the legalese section/license details are different.  I would imagine potentially with a re-pressing, any bugs maybe worth fixing could be tweaked too.

[Tulpa | 3,492]

19 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

And back to the "is the title screen different?" issue, how would you feel about a game like The Untouchables, where both version have identical gameplay, but the re-release has an entirely new title screen designed to match the new artwork on the redesigned box?

 

That is interesting. I imagine it was overlooked over the years when they were compiling the list of games.

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

4 hours ago, Tulpa said:

There's a difference though. The others were addons to play different media and enhancements. The Sega CD was a CD, taking advantage of the extra storage. Likewise, the 32x was a 32 bit game system playing 32 bit games.

The Aladdin Deck Enhancer was none of these. The game code is still an NES game. You can take the ROM of the game and put it on an Everdrive and it'll play just fine. The only thing the Deck Enhancer did was move the lockout chip override to the addon so Camerica could sell the games cheaper.

Or am I missing something?

No, you're not missing anything there.

It's a good point you have there, added functionality and all. Maybe that's a good catch-all for an exception.

 

1 hour ago, 8bitsupremacy said:

I've always wondered this: if Dizzy the Adventurer (the Aladdin cart) is universally considered to be counted toward the set, and both Tengen versions of Gauntlet/Pac-Man/RBI are already generally counted as 6 games instead of 3 (despite being indentical games, just grey licensed vs black unlicensed shells) toward the set total...then why would the other 6 Aladdin games that AREN'T Dizzy not be counted but only Dizzy is?  I get that they are the same games as the gold cart Camerica versions for NES, but they should be counted as 12 carts (6 Aladdin and 6 NES gold carts) if one is to apply the same logic with the three Tengen games that have two different cart versions each...right?  Consistency, or something...

Don't forget about Mindscapes Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, vs. Tengens! They're both the same game so that's 8 games instead of 4.

Me personally, I consider them 4 games instead of 8. Same goes for Myriad/Caltron. Though, publicly I list them as separate.

 

35 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

My question to you, ThePhleo, is this: if you're already determined to collect hundreds and hundreds of cartridges for a console you really like, what's one more?  (or even seven more?).  I mean, the Aladdin games are all dirt cheap (except maybe Micro Machines?) and if you love the NES, why not get a quirky add-on like this that plays even more games?  Either way, if I were in your shoes, I would at the very least get Dizzy the Adventurer along with Fantastic Adventures of Dizzy, since you have to collect 250 Stars instead of 100, so that makes it a different gaming experience altogether.

And back to the "is the title screen different?" issue, how would you feel about a game like The Untouchables, where both version have identical gameplay, but the re-release has an entirely new title screen designed to match the new artwork on the redesigned box?

I guess, at the end of the day, if you're pretty much a full set collector for the NES anyway, why stop one game short of the goal???

No plans on full-set collecting anything. I archive expensive stuff, and keep the stuff that I consider cool, unique, or just plain fun to play. I'd gladly buy a CIB Stadium Events if it meant I could unfold it and scan it, and then when I get bored staring at it, sell it to its next owner. (I don't intend on ever touching a Stadium Events again, but if one falls in my lap, well.)

The Aladdin games are dirt cheap, but when it comes my private lists I like to take zero presumptions of pre-existing collecting standards like price, rarity, and historical significance.

Title screens mean nothing to me since even The Legend of Zelda has two title screens, a simple software revision shouldn't make a game unique. To me, a unique title would have to provide a unique experience to the player in a significant way, and there are some titles that push the boundaries of what I imagine are acceptable.

For example, Tecmo NBA Basketball is a hot topic right now here on VGS. Does the removal of Michael Jordan constitute a different game? Or Yo! Noid vs. Kamen no Ninja Hanamaru...they're structurally identical games, but contextually they are completely different. How about Ultimate League Soccer vs. Futebol in Brazil, it's functionally the same game but it has completely different context since the teams in Futebol are actual local teams.

Then there's something completely crazy like Mario Bros... for the NES alone there are three "unique" releases of this game across all regions.

• Mario Bros. (1983/1986) is the one we're all familiar with
• Kaettekita Mario Bros. (Mario Bros. Returns) (1988) updated physics allow you to change direction mid-air, better audio and graphics, save function, additional modes, and advertisements for curry and Mario 3....though it's really an FDS game.
• Mario Bros. Classic (1991) ...uses the engine of Kaettekita Mario Bros. for FDS, but drops the advertisements.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

Well, considering the fact that the Jordan-less NBA was issued an entirely new code instead of just a '-1' (presumably by Nintendo, since they manufactured both versions of the game), I'd say it's technically a different game, at least for ocd collectors like me who dig that sort of thing...

[Makar | 1,946]

This is interesting but if it wasn't officially released, it doesn't count imo. Although this does get me thinking about the fire emblem fates special edition for the 3ds.

Do you count that separately for the 3ds library from Conquest and Birthright? The special edition has Conquest and Birthright, but it also has Revelation, meaning there's a physical cart that has Revelation on it which is the 3rd fates game. I personally count it since it's an official game and the only way to get Revelation physically. Curious on people's thoughts.

[Inzoreno | 102]

12 hours ago, Makar said:

This is interesting but if it wasn't officially released, it doesn't count imo. Although this does get me thinking about the fire emblem fates special edition for the 3ds.

Do you count that separately for the 3ds library from Conquest and Birthright? The special edition has Conquest and Birthright, but it also has Revelation, meaning there's a physical cart that has Revelation on it which is the 3rd fates game. I personally count it since it's an official game and the only way to get Revelation physically. Curious on people's thoughts.

I don't think there's an easy way to NOT count that game. After all it was released at retail, albeit in a less practical fashion than a regular 3DS game. But it was officially produced and released by Nintendo, so it has to count for the full set. The only way I think you could argue it doesn't count is if you say a complete set is only games that have a standalone case, but I think that's just a dumb way to try and save yourself money. 

[Makar | 1,946]

22 minutes ago, Inzoreno said:

I don't think there's an easy way to NOT count that game. After all it was released at retail, albeit in a less practical fashion than a regular 3DS game. But it was officially produced and released by Nintendo, so it has to count for the full set. The only way I think you could argue it doesn't count is if you say a complete set is only games that have a standalone case, but I think that's just a dumb way to try and save yourself money. 

Agreed. The Wikipedia for fates says three different versions, so if you count versions as games, then the special edition is needed. 

[Speedy_NES | 102]

I consider it as part of the set, but you are probably asking whether people consider it part of their set. I also consider 32X as part of a Genesis set, etc. IMO, when speaking of game sets, we should be as exhaustive as possible. When collecting, we can compartmentalize subsets all we want to make the collecting more fun (achievable goals) for ourselves, but game lists should be as exhaustive as possible.

Some thoughts;

1. People like to pursue goals that they deem are achievable. Two decades ago, most collectors were "full" full set collectors probably because they thought they could achieve this. Every variant counted, but not every variant was known. Unlicensed games were included in the full set, big revisions (possibly the only really known revisions) were included, Aladdin games were included, etc. People were loving the discovery of new games and variants to collect, as they wanted more to add to their collection. Anything that required (emulated) NES hardware to run counted. Now, I imagine most collectors start without the goal of collecting everything, as that is perceived as not achievable (anymore) due to prices, availability, etc. I think that this is a major driver for why people do not pursue unlicensed games as much anymore. This lens may not seem appropriate for the rise in demand for sealed/graded titles, but IMO the goals behind the demand are very different; hobby consumption spending vs. speculative investment spending.

2. Re: the point earlier on Sunday Funday as a post-NES era release; what criteria is best to delineate a game for a particular list? Again, I think we should be as exhaustive as possible, but if delineating by "NES era", what defines the era? I personally like to focus on the drivers of demand for said item / intended audience. Anything produced (not necessarily 'released') after Sunday Funday targets largely a hobbyist audience of collectors and fans (where owning and supporting said item is more important than playing it, but maybe I am biased here), where up until Sunday Funday, games were targeted at customers for play value. When I think NES era, I would include the Aladdin set and Cheetahmen II, even if they officially went unreleased through intended channels, as the final product was produced with the intention of satisfying demand for play value.

3. Adding on point 2; every criterion used to delineate will have unintended exceptions. Should it have a different UPC? Should it have a different title screen, software code, cartridge shape, publisher, etc. At the end of the day, I think we should be as exhaustive as possible and then decide ourselves what segments we want to collect and why. But saying that a game that requires a console to work should not be part of that console's full set does not make sense to me.

 

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

Couldn't agree more, Speedy, on all three points