General Current Events/Political Discussion

[Silent Hill | 276]

11 hours ago, Estil said:

Well I guess we can add the South Park episode "With Apologies to Jesse Jackson" to the list of outragous parody sorts of things that somehow have no become reality!  I mean, dude, SERIOUSLY??  BTW I like Timcast's/Tim Pool's videos, he's a good guy.

I for one am "bending my knee" to NO ONE...except for when I proposed marriage and when I was student manager for my HS baseball team and we'd "take a knee" for our team meetings before and after games (I think that was shown in the "Butters' Bottom Bitch" episode).

 

This is absolutely disgusting. 

[Kguillemette | 1,561]

12 hours ago, ThePhleo said:

Washing someone's feet is a very biblical thing.

It's probably being used as a trap to trick right wing people to be outraged only for it to be thrown in their face.

Protest have LOTS of symbolism used....this is absolutely a symbol. I don't think any one would willingly wash someones feet for no reason today.

    If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you. Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them.— John 13:14–17 (NKJV)

Biblical and historical. Consider that in Jesus's time shoes and socks didn't exist. Feet were dirty as all you had for coverings were sandals. It was considered a form of respect when having company to offer a place to wash your feet. So the story of Pharisee in Luke 7: 36-50 where a sinful woman we think to be a prostitute finds out Jesus is eating supper at the house of Pharisee. The woman barges in and washes Jesus's feet with her tears and perfume much to the disgust of Pharisee. When Jesus is asked why he allowed this, he reminds Pharisee that he was not offered his feet washed. The woman showed him more respect and love in that regard and blessed her.

Bear with me, I'm paraphrasing a few different interpretations I've heard. One of my favorite bits of scripture.

[CodysGameRoom | 2,009]

12 hours ago, NESfiend said:

I think its worth mentioning this shit isn't worth ending friendships over. It wont change anyone's mind anyway. Thats one of the saddest things about this era and what makes it different than any division since maybe Vietnam times. Ive watched friendships end in real life and thats crazy. Ive been in primarily republican circles and areas almost all my entire life. Always been able to debate back and forth over beers and only respect each other more for it, no matter how much we disagree.

I hear this point a lot. Listen, I live in Nebraska. There are a LOT of conservatives here. A lot of my friends and colleagues are long time conservatives (however, very few, if any, are Trump supporters). I have been debating issues with friends/co-workers etc for years and years. I'm happy to debate certain issues, I have, and had zero fallout from it.

But what I'm done debating are social issues. I won't accept racism sexism, homophobia, etc. To me that IS worth ending a friendship over. Because someone who is racist, sexist, homophobic, etc, is not a friend worth having. A person who is those things is not a person who deserves my respect and they will not get it.

I'll also call it out any time I see it. As we should be doing. Friend, relative, passer-by. It doesn't matter. Silence is encouragement. Letting your racist uncle get away with calling mexicans "beaners" at the family reunion is encouraging him and telling him that it is acceptable. It's not. Call it out. Denying systemic racism is a huge problem or denying it exists is, in itself, a racist thought process and it should be called out and debated. 

 

17 hours ago, cartman said:

They are protesting it on ideological grounds not because they've done any actual research to different factors influencing the results. They've heard on the news that the police is hunting black people and nobody is there to point out that the statistics don't reflect that nor that the wrongdoings that do happen can be for other reasons than racism. It's not really racism it's either a relevant contributing factor or it isn't one and neither option changes based on what you'd want to hear.

My bad. I didn't realize you had insight into the internal thoughts and opinions of the majority of protesters. Or are you just generalizing the group, like when you called out "gangbangers" as being an excuse for cops to be racist?

 

16 hours ago, Tabonga said:

It doesn't list any other victims of other races.  Maybe their lives don't matter?

So you are complaining that an article that is a list of black people killed by cops doesn't include non-black people killed by cops? Because that makes no sense. It's literally what the article is. 

 

15 hours ago, Tabonga said:

It doesn't say under what  circumstance the people were killed under - sometimes (but not necessarily always obviously) in police work it becomes necessary to kill people.

Research the circumstances. Many of those people didn't have to die. And for the part in bold, have you considered that maybe that's part of the problem? Maybe that's something that should be looked into?

[Silent Hill | 276]

12 hours ago, ThePhleo said:

Washing someone's feet is a very biblical thing.

It's probably being used as a trap to trick right wing people to be outraged only for it to be thrown in their face.

Protest have LOTS of symbolism used....this is absolutely a symbol. I don't think any one would willingly wash someones feet for no reason today.

    If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you. Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them.— John 13:14–17 (NKJV)

Buddy, you're crazy if you think washing someone's feet in 2020 because of their race is a good sign of things to come or what these people advocate for.

[Silent Hill | 276]

 

18 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

16 hours ago, Tabonga said:

It doesn't say under what  circumstance the people were killed under - sometimes (but not necessarily always obviously) in police work it becomes necessary to kill people.

Research the circumstances. Many of those people didn't have to die. And for the part in bold, have you considered that maybe that's part of the problem? Maybe that's something that should be looked into?

Put a number to "many" then, because it absolutely needs to be identified if you're going to share that list. 

And you know what would eliminate the necessity of police killing people? People not committing violent crimes.

How about we look into that a bit?

 

[CodysGameRoom | 2,009]

5 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

And you know what would eliminate the necessity of police killing people? People not committing violent crimes.

How about we look into that a bit?

I mean yea. That's a good idea. Obviously??? Not sure how that detracts from my point.

How about the people that didn't commit violent crimes who were murdered? Maybe we should look into that.

Edited June 8, 2020 by CodysGameRoom

[CodysGameRoom | 2,009]

https://www.npr.org/2020/05/29/865261916/a-decade-of-watching-black-people-die

Eric Garner had just broken up a fight, according to witness testimony.

Ezell Ford was walking in his neighborhood.

Michelle Cusseaux was changing the lock on her home's door when police arrived to take her to a mental health facility.

Tanisha Anderson was having a bad mental health episode, and her brother called 911.

Tamir Rice was playing in a park.

Natasha McKenna was having a schizophrenic episode when she was tazed in Fairfax, Va.

Walter Scott was going to an auto-parts store.

Bettie Jones answered the door to let Chicago police officers in to help her upstairs neighbor, who had called 911 to resolve a domestic dispute.

Philando Castile was driving home from dinner with his girlfriend.

Botham Jean was eating ice cream in his living room in Dallas.

Atatiana Jefferson was babysitting her nephew at home in Fort Worth, Texas.

Eric Reason was pulling into a parking spot at a local chicken and fish shop.

Dominique Clayton was sleeping in her bed.

Breonna Taylor was also asleep in her bed.

And George Floyd was at the grocery store.

[Silent Hill | 276]

9 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

I mean yea. That's a good idea. Obviously??? Not sure how that detracts from my point.

How about the people that didn't commit violent crimes who were murdered? Maybe we should look into that.

I agree that those cases should be looked at and the responsible parties be held accountable. That said, police brutality/systemic racism isn't the reason behind ~99% of police killings.

[CodysGameRoom | 2,009]

1 minute ago, Silent Hill said:

I agree that those cases should be looked at and the responsible parties be held accountable. That said, police brutality/systemic racism isn't the reason behind ~99% of police killings.

I'm not sure why we are debating then. We're mostly in agreement. Even though I might not agree with your citation of 99%, let's say I roll with it. Even the 1% is unacceptable for the group of people who are supposed to be serving and protecting us. 

[Silent Hill | 276]

1 minute ago, CodysGameRoom said:

I'm not sure why we are debating then. We're mostly in agreement. Even though I might not agree with your citation of 99%, let's say I roll with it. Even the 1% is unacceptable for the group of people who are supposed to be serving and protecting us. 

I'm just debating the notion that the reason behind every unjustified killing by police is due to targeting/racism. I agree with the fight against police brutality in general and some policies like Qualified Immunity being revised or removed completely. But that's about where I stop agreeing with what I see this movement demanding. 

A single unjustified killing is "unacceptable", but I also live in a reality where cops are people and people (by nature) fuck up, big time. There will never be a perfect police force, unfortunately. It's not realistic to have that expectation.

[Hammerfestus | 3,922]

 

[CodysGameRoom | 2,009]

7 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

A single unjustified killing is "unacceptable", but I also live in a reality where cops are people and people (by nature) fuck up, big time. There will never be a perfect police force, unfortunately. It's not realistic to have that expectation.

Maybe it's not realistic to have that expectation but it is something we can strive for, and it IS realistic to have the expectation that the ones who DO fuck up, are held accountable for their actions. In the past, that's rarely been the case. Hopefully we are moving towards that happening more now. All 4 officers from the Floyd case being arrested is a good start.

[captmorgandrinker | 1,651]

12 hours ago, ThePhleo said:

I think we're a different bunch here.

Back in NintendoAge we still managed to have bitter enemies yet still post on the same forums and sometimes have normal conversation.

As Mr. Head pointed out, these are indeed different times now.   I believe you would see the same thing happening there if NA were still around.

[Tabonga | 2,364]

1 hour ago, CodysGameRoom said:

So you are complaining that an article that is a list of black people killed by cops doesn't include non-black people killed by cops? Because that makes no sense. It's literally what the article is. 

Research the circumstances. Many of those people didn't have to die. And for the part in bold, have you considered that maybe that's part of the problem? Maybe that's something that should be looked into?

Complaining  or noting (just because somebody writes something does not mean it should be exempt from scrutiny)? I am saying that in order to  understand the problem we need to have something to compare it to.  Are only black people killed by police?  If not we need to know what the percentages are. The truth is that more white people are killed by police have done the research and than blacks.  From  2013 to 2019 more than 1000 unarmed (the article doesn't define what that means) people were killed by police. 17% of those were black - while being somewhat above the 13% figure that may reflect more contacts with police (remember that the rate of black on black crimes (look at the murder rates by race (both victims and perpetrators) so there is going to be more police contact) that cerainly does not sound like a war on blacks.  

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2020-06-03/data-show-deaths-from-police-violence-disproportionately-affect-people-of-color

Research the author maybe should have done?  Just a rough breakdown of how many were apparently unjustified (assuming the author coughld have been unbiased (as it were).  Many is an elusive term - it is ambiguous enough that it is often fairly meaningless. While many of those people didn't have to die, many likely did and many it is likely hard to definitatively determine.  

Despite your assertion the list is not just people killed by police - so using the numbers/list to determine anything acccurately about police behavior towards blacks becomes even more problematic.  

In any event the author seems to have either not heard of or deliberately ignored (if this is the case I wonder why) the following people (among some others):

Italia Kelly
David Dorn
Dave Patrick Underwood
Chris Beatty

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Tabonga

[CodysGameRoom | 2,009]

 

13 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

17% of those were black - while being somewhat above the 13% figure that may reflect more contacts with police (remember that the rate of black on black crimes (look at the murder rates by race (both victims and perpetrators) so there is going to be more police contact) that cerainly does not sound like a war on blacks.  

Did you read the article?

"About 17% of the black people who died as a result of police harm were unarmed, a larger share than any other racial group and about 1.3 times more than the average of 13%."

It wasn't 17% of the people that were killed were black. It was 17% of the black people who were killed were unarmed. If you look at the graph and do the math of unarmed people killed by the police, the total is 1,001, and the amount of black people is 336. That is 33%. If you add the hispanic number that is 53%.

 

[Tabonga | 2,364]

30 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

 

Did you read the article?

"About 17% of the black people who died as a result of police harm were unarmed, a larger share than any other racial group and about 1.3 times more than the average of 13%."

It wasn't 17% of the people that were killed were black. It was 17% of the black people who were killed were unarmed. If you look at the graph and do the math of unarmed people killed by the police, the total is 1,001, and the amount of black people is 336. That is 33%. If you add the hispanic number that is 53%.

 

OK- I misread it.  But that number is still not high enough to suggest that there is a  universal war on black people* by the police.  If there is one it is by black people themselves:

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls

Given that those stats are (obviously) for solved murders that means (at least for homicides) the police contacts are going to be very skewed towards interactions by the police with blacks in homicide cases (and I bet when arrests are made/attempted to be made the suspects are 150% co-operative).  (If you pull up stats for other years the results are much the same.)  Yeah - the deaths are not caused by the police - but guess what - dead is still dead whether by police or non-police.  One set tends to get attention whlle the larger is pretty much totally ignored (subsets such as the Chicago murder rate are sometime brought up in anti-gun rhetoric - but they always seem to ignore who is pulling the triggers,  Just an oversight I am sure.

*And hispanics are now black?  I thought they were now white Hispanics (if we are to believe the propaganda about George Zimmerman).

And I still want to know why these people (along with a few others)  were not included in the article you cited:

Italia Kelly
David Dorn
Dave Patrick Underwood
Chris Beatty

(Maybe because they don't fit the narrative their lives don't matter?  Nah - there has to be some other explanation - I am sure you can provide that.)

 

  

 

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Tabonga

[CodysGameRoom | 2,009]

3 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

If there is one it is by black people themselves:

You keep bringing up black on black violence when that isn't the issue. Citizens aren't here to serve and protect other citizens. Police are supposed to be doing that. Not murdering unarmed people.

4 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

And hispanics are now black?  I thought they were now white Hispanics

I'm simply pointing out the percentage of minorities on the source you provided. You can ingest the data however you want.

8 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

And I still want to know why these people (along with a few others)  were not included in the article you cited:

I'm guessing the people you mentioned, who were not killed by police officers, were not included on a list of people killed by police officers, because they were not killed by police officers. But I didn't write the article so I mean I can't say for sure... 

[Tabonga | 2,364]

50 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

You keep bringing up black on black violence when that isn't the issue. Citizens aren't here to serve and protect other citizens. Police are supposed to be doing that. Not murdering unarmed people.

I'm simply pointing out the percentage of minorities on the source you provided. You can ingest the data however you want.

I'm guessing the people you mentioned, who were not killed by police officers, were not included on a list of people killed by police officers, because they were not killed by police officers. But I didn't write the article so I mean I can't say for sure... 

It certainly is part of the issue - some people are maintaining that the police are pursuing a "war" (sometimes a "genocidal war" - which is really ridiculous IMHO) - if someone is going to speculate a war they should at least be in the right hemisphere.  And as I said dead is dead - and the numbers of black people killed by other blacks dwarfs the number killed by police.   (And I bet a lot of those victims were extremely innocent.)

And I copped to the mistake and pointed out it didn't make much difference to what I was saying.  I suppose I could have just ducked it and not admitted it - which sadly seems to de rigueur around here in certain quarters. 

 Heh - time for you to read your article - the author never says that it was a list of police killings  - you injected that (he does say he used a database listing police killings as a source).  He goes on to list two cases (which he obviously thought important enough to single out) where the perpetrators were non-police.  Who knows (without looking up every single entry) how many other non-police deaths are on that list (which is not a biggie in my book since he was pretty open about there being non-police deaths on the list - but I am not the one postulating they were all police killings either).  In any event one  of the names he specifically mentioned was Ahmaud Arbery  who was killed as a direct result of the protests/lootings/arsons but not by the police.  The four victims I listed also were killed (and were black) in the protests/lootings/arsons - not by police but (likely) by other protestors/looters/arsonists.  If the author knew about the first case then there is no reason to believe he did not know about these deaths.  I am fairly sure that they were not included because they did not fit the narrative (either the specific one or the larger one).*  Either that or he decided their lives didn't matter (for whatever reason.*

*In any event it still winds up being that their lives apparently just didn't matter.  IMHO of course,

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Tabonga

[cartman | 195]

3 hours ago, CodysGameRoom said:

My bad. I didn't realize you had insight into the internal thoughts and opinions of the majority of protesters. Or are you just generalizing the group, like when you called out "gangbangers" as being an excuse for cops to be racist? 

Because had they put the killings into statistical perspective they would've realized it themselves. It's not a science research groups that are at protest movement these ones or otherwise, just because they make a claim it doesn't that they are automatically right. And i didn't say gangbangers were are an excuse i said that where there's more encounters, more volatile neighborhoods and demographic groups that are involved in something there also can be a higher risk of wrongful conduct of the police without it boiling down to racism. And i was pretty fucking specific with that that it's not an excuse but that it might be an explenation.

Who's generalizing what here? Considering the fact that these unlawful killings are statistically rare and also that you automatically know that it was due to racism that they happened and not something else. 

[CodysGameRoom | 2,009]

[Tabonga | 2,364]

9 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

Heh - I do know I am more likely to think of someone who knocks on my door asking for money (for whatever cause) more highly than someone who breaks in, assaults me, grabs a bunch of stuff* and starts a fire on the way out. 

*Gasp - maybe even my videogames - oh horror of horrors.

^______^

[cartman | 195]

14 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

So basically the claimer of racism is correct and every objector and objection is racist. 

[Tabonga | 2,364]

@CodysGameRoom

 

I am sure that you will be very pleased to know that an arrest has been made in the murder of David Dorn.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/man-charged-slaying-retired-st-002216902.html

(Sign from his memorial.)

Edited June 8, 2020 by Tabonga

[CodysGameRoom | 2,009]

13 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

@CodysGameRoom

 

I am sure that you will be very pleased to know that an arrest has been made in the murder of David Dorn.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/man-charged-slaying-retired-st-002216902.html

 

 

Yes, that is good. Murderers should be held accountable for their actions. 

I'm not quite sure what this has to do with the systemic racism and aggression perpetrated towards black people in the United States or why you are trying to use it as an argument against me. 

[Tabonga | 2,364]

4 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

Yes, that is good. Murderers should be held accountable for their actions. 

I'm not quite sure what this has to do with the systemic racism and aggression perpetrated towards black people in the United States or why you are trying to use it as an argument against me. 

If you will recall we discussed David Dorn in some of our previous posts.

It is worthy of inclusion because of your inclusion of an article whose author specifically mentions black people killed by non-police perpetrators. 

You set the "ground rules" here so unless you intend to weasel out if it I think you need to follow those rules as to what is part of the discussion.

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Tabonga