Vote Here for the Indie NES Game Hall of Fame!

[fcgamer | 4,754]

6 hours ago, Tulpa said:

To be honest, I'd rather debate the merits of including sprite hacks in a homebrew discussion than listen to Dave rant about how caravan shooter development is akin to writing short stories.

I think an argument could be made for it. Super Dr Mario Bros., for example, is a game I'd put on the list. It had a paid (?) development team assembled and led by a director. The game was extensively hacked and the code / programming altered quite a bit. Similarly, a ton of research was done to match the content with old source materials. I mean, if any hack would be a candidate for going on the list, this would be the one, and that's coming from the position that I have direct insight into the game's development.

[Gloves | 11,844]

16 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

It's coming. I'll be jobless come August, should have a lot of free time on my hands and no money, which I guess is the perfect combination for staying at home and getting projects finished.

 

You're making him wait until August!? 

Didn't he order it in September 2022?

You define "soonish" in November 2022, two months after he ordered it, as this August!?

 

Bruh.

[Seth | 172]

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

Yeah, I mean if sprite hacks with stolen IP count as indie games yet Master Chu and the Drunkard Hu is qualified due to its age, I'm really not sure what to say.

There is just too much factually incorrect about this statement, both in terms of changing what I said to you and changing what I said to others and then adding things I never said that I think I am just going to keep my focus on the purpose of this thread, which is compiling votes. If you ever find yourself creating a Hall of Fame that is an attempt to both bring multiple communities together and advocate for those communities and evangelize to those outside those communities about why they should pay attention to those communities, I think you will understand how frustrating it is to have the very careful statements I made about what is or is not allowed and why turned into whatever it was that you just said. But again, given that this is a community service project, and given that the purpose of that community service project is to promote something we all care about to other people, I really would appreciate it if we could focus on what this thread is about in this thread, and then if there are other conversations people want to have have those in a different thread that is dedicated to those conversations. But me repeating things I have already said and explaining why I am being deliberately misquoted and misconstrued is not a good use of my time, particularly in this space.

Edited April 28 by Seth

[Seth | 172]

I will just add this: The project I’m working on is about celebrating those who are keeping the NES alive after its lifespan. That includes developers, gamers, collectors, critics, journalists, publishers, composers, archivists, and many other groups of persons working really hard to do a very hard thing: keep a dead console alive.

That is an idiosyncratic and surprising and arguably even unprecedented (at least in its present scope) task that they have taken on, and an honorable one, entirely different from the project that small independent NES publishers took on during the lifespan of the NES in the 1980s and 1990s. Anyone who wants to run a completely different project that celebrates unlicensed NES games released during the lifespan of the system is free to do that.

Second, under the definition of “homebrews” both hacks and original aftermarket games qualify. We cannot say that the difference is in artistic merit because I have played the very worst indie aftermarket NES games and the very best homebrewed NES hacks and there is infinitely more artistry present in the latter. The difference, and I say this as an attorney, is in the legality of hacks versus aftermarket indie games. But from a cultural standpoint, there is natural crossover between the hacking and hack gamer community and what is somewhat erroneously referred to as the “homebrew” community (erroneously because that term is being used more narrowly than its definition) that is actually not happening because of a soft mutual contempt. Homebrewers of original games view hacks as easy to make, disrespectful of gaming as an enterprise, and generally of lower quality than any decent entirely new game. Meanwhile, because those working on hacks are working with some of the top IPs in the history of digital art, it is easy for them to look down on original games as being inferior by and large in their gameplay, level design, and so on (particularly given that a good hack takes an already incredible game to an entirely new level).

What I said here was that there are probably thousands of hacks out there, and that my historical archive has identified 30—such a vanishingly small percentage as to almost be a rounding error—that have added so much custom code to existing code, well beyond mere sprite hacks, that they deserve to be seen as original homebrew *equivalents*. For that to be seen as objectionable in a community that had no problem accepting as “homebrews” all manner of illegal ports like Ultimate Frogger Champion and E.T. and the literally scores of additional ones listed at RETRO is a little rich.

I understand that gatekeepers want to pretend that we are not working on a spectrum here but in two entirely different camps. But with respect, I have played more homebrews and hacks and ports and demos and music carts and tech demos and utilities and on and on and on for the NES than anyone here, and there is no question about the fact that what we are discussing is a spectrum and not a binary. And that is a good thing, because by recognizing that we are working with a spectrum we can bring two communities together that have a lot in common. 

So please understand how little interest I have in the gatekeeping that I think some people are interested in here. Not because I think I am better than that gatekeeping, because gatekeeping is something we all do and find enjoyable when it is appropriate to the task before us. But I’m doing the work I am doing as a historian and journalist and gatekeeping of the particular sort being discussed here is not appropriate or useful for the task before me, especially not when it is predicated on all sorts of historical inaccuracies.

I am happy discuss all this at more length in a thread that is not intended for a completely separate purpose. I really hope we can return to people voting because that is going to have much more of a long-term impact on the community. Why? Because it celebrates the work of others rather than our own ability to craft an argument.

Edited April 28 by Seth

[Gloves | 11,844]

@Seth to be clear, I'm entirely being sarcastic with my statements about this is a hack that's a whatever this or that. I find the gatekeeping funny so I jokingly split hairs on these things. If you have a criteria which you believe works then power to you. I'd never, for instance, say that Enderal (the Skyrim mod) isn't deserving of massive praise and being basically considered a whole new game.

I'm still kinda sad though that you continue to ignore Shmupspeed's existence. 

[fcgamer | 4,754]

1 hour ago, Gloves said:

You're making him wait until August!? 

Didn't he order it in September 2022?

You define "soonish" in November 2022, two months after he ordered it, as this August!?

 

Bruh.

He ordered the book. The idea was to create some cartridges to go with the book as a fun hobbyist thing, i.e. the cartridge itself was supposed to be a fun hobbyist supplement rather than the entrée. It's coming, it's on my list of things to get finished this year. Finally incase anyone wonders, I did not take money or presales or anything like that for the cartridges, unlike the folks that are still waiting for their Project Blue cartridges that they paid $$$ for in advance. 

[fcgamer | 4,754]

48 minutes ago, Seth said:

I will just add this: The project I’m working on is about celebrating those who are keeping the NES alive after its lifespan. That includes developers, gamers, collectors, critics, journalists, publishers, composers, archivists, and many other groups of persons working really hard to do a very hard thing: keep a dead console alive.

That is an idiosyncratic and surprising and arguably even unprecedented (at least in its present scope) task that they have taken on, and an honorable one, entirely different from the project that small independent NES publishers took on during the lifespan of the NES in the 1980s and 1990s. Anyone who wants to run a completely different project that celebrates unlicensed NES games released during the lifespan of the system is free to do that.

Second, under the definition of “homebrews” both hacks and original aftermarket games qualify. We cannot say that the difference is in artistic merit because I have played the very worst indie aftermarket NES games and the very best homebrewed NES hacks and there is infinitely more artistry present in the latter. The difference, and I say this as an attorney, is in the legality of hacks versus aftermarket indie games. But from a cultural standpoint, there is natural crossover between the hacking and hack gamer community and what is somewhat erroneously referred to as the “homebrew” community (erroneously because that term is being used more narrowly than its definition) that is actually not happening because of a soft mutual contempt. Homebrewers of original games view hacks as easy to make, disrespectful of gaming as an enterprise, and generally of lower quality than any decent entirely new game. Meanwhile, because those working on hacks are working with some of the top IPs in the history of digital art, it is easy for them to look down on original games as being inferior by and large in their gameplay, level design, and so on (particularly given that a good hack takes an already incredible game to an entirely new level).

What I said here was that there are probably thousands of hacks out there, and that my historical archive has identified 30—such a vanishingly small percentage as to almost be a rounding error—that have added so much custom code to existing code, well beyond mere sprite hacks, that they deserve to be seen as original homebrew *equivalents*. For that to be seen as objectionable in a community that had no problem accepting as “homebrews” all manner of illegal ports like Ultimate Frogger Champion and E.T. and the literally scores of additional ones listed at RETRO is a little rich.

I understand that gatekeepers want to pretend that we are not working on a spectrum here but in two entirely different camps. But with respect, I have played more homebrews and hacks and ports and demos and music carts and tech demos and utilities and on and on and on for the NES than anyone here, and there is no question about the fact that what we are discussing is a spectrum and not a binary. And that is a good thing, because by recognizing that we are working with a spectrum we can bring two communities together that have a lot in common. 

So please understand how little interest I have in the gatekeeping that I think some people are interested in here. Not because I think I am better than that gatekeeping, because gatekeeping is something we all do and find enjoyable when it is appropriate to the task before us. But I’m doing the work I am doing as a historian and journalist and gatekeeping of the particular sort being discussed here is not appropriate or useful for the task before me, especially not when it is predicated on all sorts of historical inaccuracies.

I am happy discuss all this at more length in a thread that is not intended for a completely separate purpose. I really hope we can return to people voting because that is going to have much more of a long-term impact on the community. Why? Because it celebrates the work of others rather than our own ability to craft an argument.

Wow, I find this all very rich and arrogant. As someone who has been following the NES homebrew scene from the very beginning, I suggest that it would do you some favors to turn things down a bit, rather than attempt to justify poorly-laid out criteria as to what does and doesn't belong on a list. You mentioned that you are an attorney - as such, I would have thought you would have taken an initiative to hash out a framework that is a bit more sound than what you have presented here. Going back to the Dr Super Mario Bros. game I mentioned. It has been extensively hacked, was worked on by a team of people, etc. Whether it deserves to be on lists, documented and archived and remembered in history shouldn't really be up to one person to decide, based on the merits of whether it is an extensive enough hack or not in the eyes of the author of the project at large, i.e. you.

Even defining aftermarket is kind of weird, as the Famicom was supported until the early 2000s, and it was very much still popular during the late 90s in some regions, areas where new, original (unauthorized, indie) games were being made. Sure, that would be Famicom, but the consensus amongst many is that the Famicom and NES are the same thing. 

If you want to be serious about this project, here's what I would probably do:

1. Drop the term "indie", strictly use the terms "aftermarket" and "homebrew". You may not like it, but viewing it from an objective mind, those "unlicensed" studios back in the day were indie studios by definition. Similarly, all homebrew and aftermarket games are "unlicensed". It's a tough pill to swallow for many when pointed out, but we are in an era where indie is a much better way of classifying those old games than unlicensed is.

2. With homebrew, there was a lot of homebrew games being made using Family Basic, and I've also heard of homebrew existing on the Famicom Disk System back in the day. It is a disservice to those folks to ignore and try to remove such offerings from an archive of homebrew games, just because they don't fit into your notion of what homebrew is. 

So the best way of addressing said issues would likely be to define what you consider "aftermarket" to mean, then refer to everything on the list as "aftermarket homebrew" or "aftermarket indie". This way there is no confusion created or caused when discussing things or working with archivists who document and examine homebrew from its roots.

Finally, let's address this:

Quote

But with respect, I have played more homebrews and hacks and ports and demos and music carts and tech demos and utilities and on and on and on for the NES than anyone here, 

Source? This seems like a very bold statement to make, especially when you don't know the relations anyone else here has to homebrews and hacks and ports and demo carts and tech demos, etc. Do you remember the Ninja Turtles theme demo when it came out?

[fcgamer | 4,754]

1 hour ago, Seth said:

I am happy discuss all this at more length in a thread that is not intended for a completely separate purpose. I really hope we can return to people voting because that is going to have much more of a long-term impact on the community. Why? Because it celebrates the work of others rather than our own ability to craft an argument.

I'll leave it with this, as I'm not going to derail the thread anymore. That being said, I think the reason people are jumping into your thread and discussing these points likely is because we feel strongly about this segment of gaming, and want it to be discussed, archived, and preserved in a non-biased way, rather than in an inaccurate way that pleases the knee-jerk reactions and whims of a few.

[Seth | 172]

11 hours ago, fcgamer said:

I think the reason people are jumping into your thread and discussing these points likely is because we feel strongly about this segment of gaming, and want it to be discussed, archived, and preserved in a non-biased way

Understood. Thank you for the feedback.

[Khromak | 770]

If I understand it, it sounds like the goal of this project is to recognize and encourage the people who are making NES games after nintendo stopped supporting it, basically anything post-Wario's woods (roughly). Essentially, the system should've been dead in the water after the last official release, but even now, 30+ years after that, games are still being made which is what this project is about. 

That's why the games made by someone on their basement in 1987 or unlicensed games made by a company and sold in massage parlors in 91 aren't relevant, not because of their quality or who made them, but because it's out of scope for what he's interested in highlighting, those who carried the torch forward and continue to make stuff. I'm not sure the details of all the games fcgamer wanted included in this list, maybe some of them fit that criteria, but it seemed like some of them, like master chu, were released contemporaneously, which makes them ineligible for consideration in this guy's project. 

Anyway, really interesting project and I especially love the idea of getting/ giving recommendations for homebrew since there's so much and not many great ways to find recommendations. I've watched gameplay of some that look really awesome, but I'm only going to include games in my list if I've personally played them. As others, these are listed in no particular order:

Project blue

NEScape

Battle kid

Roniu's tale 

Nebs n Debs

Deadpool

Starkeeper

Twin dragons

Edited April 29 by Khromak

[Seth | 172]

6 minutes ago, Khromak said:

these are listed in no particular order:

Project blue

NEScape

Battle kid

Roniu's tale 

Nebs n Debs

Deadpool

Starkeeper

Twin dragons

Great list, thank you! It has been added to the votes. I think people will be very excited to see the Hall when it comes out in May.

(And keep those votes coming, all!)

[fcgamer | 4,754]

7 hours ago, Khromak said:

f I understand it, it sounds like the goal of this project is to recognize and encourage the people who are making NES games after nintendo stopped supporting it, basically anything post-Wario's woods (roughly). Essentially, the system should've been dead in the water after the last official release, but even now, 30+ years after that, games are still being made which is what this project is about

Thanks for the clarification. With that, I'll amend my list of games I'm voting for.

Here's my real list of top indie / homebrew games, in no particular order.

Final Fight 3
Tiny Toon Adventures 6
Bomb Sweeper
Hot Logic
Time Conquest
Super Dr. Mario Bros.
The Lion King V: Timon and Pumbaa
Tom & Jerry 3

Actually, Final Fight 3 is one of my favorite NES / Famicom games of all time. I 

[Ankos | 467]

I've got two questions regarding eligibility, though I don't think I'd feel confident enough in my knowledge of this stuff to make a submission either way. I'm just curious

1. Does the game have to be vanilla NES? Nowadays there's multiple types of modified NES that add extra colors and sounds. This sort of stuff has been used for official products, like that Oregon Trail Handheld, and a billion plug and plays. It's also been used for fan projects. These would not work on a vanilla NES, so I'm guessing no

2. Does the game have to have been released on cart? Some homebrew stuff is just limited to ROMs available for download, like Silk Road on Gameboy. Would NES games that are download only be allowed for submission?

[fcgamer | 4,754]

7 minutes ago, Ankos said:

2. Does the game have to have been released on cart? Some homebrew stuff is just limited to ROMs available for download, like Silk Road on Gameboy. Would NES games that are download only be allowed for submission?

I cannot speak for the author of this thread; however, many of the entries (NES Maker demos) as well as the notorious Blade Buster were not officially released as cartridges, though in the case of the latter, as I recall, the author allowed people to burn cartridges of it (possibly as long as they weren't being sold)

[Seth | 172]

21 minutes ago, Ankos said:

I've got two questions regarding eligibility, though I don't think I'd feel confident enough in my knowledge of this stuff to make a submission either way. I'm just curious

1. Does the game have to be vanilla NES? Nowadays there's multiple types of modified NES that add extra colors and sounds. This sort of stuff has been used for official products, like that Oregon Trail Handheld, and a billion plug and plays. It's also been used for fan projects. These would not work on a vanilla NES, so I'm guessing no

2. Does the game have to have been released on cart? Some homebrew stuff is just limited to ROMs available for download, like Silk Road on Gameboy. Would NES games that are download only be allowed for submission?

It has to be theoretically playable on a standard NES (I only add the word “theoretically” here because of your second question, the answer to which is that yes, ROM-only homebrews are fine, provided that they could in theory be put on a cart and played in a standard NES).

[fcgamer | 4,754]

9 minutes ago, Seth said:

It has to be theoretically playable on a standard NES (I only add the word “theoretically” here because of your second question, the answer to which is that yes, ROM-only homebrews are fine, provided that they could in theory be put on a cart and played in a standard NES).

This is your list, but setting such parameters removes a lot of early homebrew from the running, so this might be something worth thinking about.

https://www.nesworld.com/article.php?system=nes&data=neshomebrew

[Dr. Morbis | 2,092]

Here are my votes:

-Lizard

-Streemerz

-Micro Mages

-Armed for Battle

-Jim Power

-Lan Master

-Super Russian Roulette

-Full Quiet

-Blade Buster

-Super NESnake 2

[Seth | 172]

Hey there all, last chance to vote! I’ve completed the next volume of the archive of every NES homebrew game ever released—the current tally is 1,750—and would like to bring it out soon, so since votes have dried up here I’m planning to wrap up the open voting period early.

That said, I’m happy to take any additional votes that come in in the next 24 hours or so. It’s really easy to vote, just give me (in a comment in this thread) 10 NES homebrews you would recommend anyone new to the scene play.

The next open voting will be in 2026. Thanks to everyone who has participated in this one, or will participate over the next 24 hours.

[Seth | 172]

Hey there all, last chance to vote! I’ve completed the next volume of the archive of every NES homebrew game ever released—the current tally is 1,750—and would like to bring it out soon, so since votes have dried up here I’m planning to wrap up the open voting period early.

That said, I’m happy to take any additional votes that come in in the next 24 hours or so. It’s really easy to vote, just give me (in a comment in this thread) 10 NES homebrews you would recommend anyone new to the scene play.

The next open voting will be in 2026. Thanks to everyone who has participated in this one, or will participate over the next 24 hours.

[fcgamer | 4,754]

3 hours ago, Seth said:

I’ve completed the next volume of the archive of every NES homebrew game ever released

It's a decent list, albeit a weirdly curated list. It's strange to see Flowers in the Mirror on there, for example. 

Rather than advertising this as an archive of every NES homebrew game ever released, as it clearly isn't, perhaps there's some better name for it like "Seth's Homebrew Picks".

[Seth | 172]

It is called exactly what it is: the largest archive of its kind in the world, and an archive that includes all games presently detectable by the only New York Times-bestselling journalist working in the field. It is professional work product being given to you for free so that you can complain about the most significant act of service journalism in the subfield rather than simply enjoy the hundreds and hundreds of homebrews I have found for you that (in fact) you most certainly did not know about previously. If you were in this for the games rather than the drama you would go play some of the games rather than act the way you have acted here, which is fabulously shabbily.

My semipro take, as someone who used to work professionally with antisocial people as a public defender, is that you have some sort of oppositional defiance disorder-adjacent or anxiety-group condition that causes you to want to be cantankerous and stir the pot. But again, if you actually cared about homebrews—as your efforts to produce them suggest you in fact do—a better use of your time right now, and specifically in this thread, would be to make a list of what the archive is missing rather than mischaracterize my hundreds and hundreds of hours of free labor as a professional art critic and video game journalist. But you are not going to do that, are you? Because that would be productive and drama-reducing and a service to your peers rather than spiteful and petty and noxious.

I do not mind the fact that I am an attorney, journalist, editor, academic, and nonfiction author and that other people are doctors or engineers or homebrewers or fighter pilots. Meanwhile, the fact that I am also a professional art critic and art historian and you are not appears to upset you to the point that you want me to mislabel the product of years of professional research as nothing more than a blog entry. I am not going to do that, anymore than I would pretend that your homebrewing efforts are a Cabbage Patch Kid.

I can only take solace in the fact that I have met many people like you before; you are fueled by conflict and drama and the unhappiness of others, a vampiric tendency I realize I have fed here. My own inclination is to work on projects that benefit other people, as I have been in public service in various manifestations for 30 years now. I hope that, having feasted on this drama you have worked so hard to create, and the disrespect for my professional work you have so gleefully spread throughout this thread, you can move on to being toxic in someone else’s perimeter. Your particular act may be extremely lucrative in this subcommunity as a matter of transient cultural capital, but it does not do anything for me or the serious work I am doing in an effort to benefit homebrewers like you.

Edited May 3 by Seth

[a3quit4s | 4,127]

First time coming around here huh lmao

On a more serious note, I appreciate the effort. You should partner up with @Scrobins another ace attorney on the site and our own personal Sage of all things homebrew. He has meticulously curated his own tracker of homebrew for as along as I can remember. 

Only good things can come of sharing homebrew information!

Edited May 3 by a3quit4s

[Mega Tank | 974]

[fcgamer | 4,754]

24 minutes ago, Seth said:

It is called exactly what it is: the largest archive of its kind in the world, and an archive that includes all games presently detectable by the only New York Times-bestselling journalist working in the field. It is professional work product being given to you for free so that you can complain about the most significant act of service journalism in the subfield rather than simply enjoy the hundreds and hundreds of homebrews I have found for you that (in fact) you most certainly did not know about previously. If you were in this for the games rather than the drama you would go play some of the games rather than act the way you have acted here, which is fabulously shabbily.

My semipro take, as someone who used to work professionally with antisocial people as a public defender, is that you have some sort of oppositional defiance disorder-adjacent or anxiety-group condition that causes you to want to be cantankerous and stir the pot. But again, if you actually cared about homebrews—as your efforts to produce them suggest you in fact do—a better use of your time right now, and specifically in this thread, would be to make a list of what the archive is missing rather than mischaracterize my hundreds and hundreds of hours of free labor as a professional art critic and video game journalist. But you are not going to do that, are you? Because that would be productive and drama-reducing and a service to your peers rather than spiteful and petty and noxious.

I do not mind the fact that I am an attorney, journalist, editor, academic, and nonfiction author and that other people are doctors or engineers or homebrewers or fighter pilots. Meanwhile, the fact that I am also a professional art critic and art historian and you are not appears to upset you to the point that you want me to mislabel the product of years of professional research as nothing more than a blog entry. I am not going to do that, anymore than I would pretend that your homebrewing efforts are a Cabbage Patch Kid.

I can only take solace in the fact that I have met many people like you before; you are fueled by conflict and drama and the unhappiness of others, a vampiric tendency I realize I have fed here. My own inclination is to work on projects that benefit other people, as I have been in public service in various manifestations for 30 years now. I hope that, having feasted on this drama you have worked so hard to create, and the disrespect for my professional work you have so gleefully spread throughout this thread, you can move on to being toxic in someone else’s perimeter. Your particular act may be extremely lucrative in this subcommunity as a matter of transient cultural capital, but it does not do anything for me or the serious work I am doing in an effort to benefit homebrewers like you.

See, your presumptions are where you miss the mark. Your research on the matter of homebrew and indie games misses the mark completely, which can be seen from your arrogant attitude and quick nature to turn defensive whenever someone questions the parameters of the list you cobbled together. And an example of that is Flowers in the Mirror. The game was made by Fuzhou Waixing Computer Science & Technology Co.,LTD. The company released a ton of games. Granted, some of them were just Chinese translations of popular Japanese games, but the rest are in the exact same camp as Flowers in the Mirror. Does Traitor Legend appear on your list? Lin Baned the Opium (one of my favorite games for that matter)? Not that I can find. So if I may ask, why are these games being excluded from your list, yet Flowers in the Mirror is included? I can best guess it has something to do with Flowers being a run 'n gun that was bootlegged by westerners.

Such instances as this, and others that I have pointed out over the course of time in this thread highlight that your research on this particular topic just isn't that great. You mentioned earlier that any homebrew game counts if it can theoretically run on real hardware, but that again ignores the fact that a large portion of the Bob Rost early homebrew games do not (according to sources I have seen) run on actual hardware. This wouldn't be surprising to me at all, as these were very early NES homebrew projects dating from the early 2000s, but the guy was even teaching a course on NES homebrew; therefore, those games should certainly appear on a list claiming to document all the NES homebrew.

And the list goes on with troubling inconsistences as these. It just smacks of poor research, and as a New York Times bestselling journalist, this could have been your chance to do something amazing. Instead, you just act in a very condescending manner when anyone questions anything about your list, when in fact, we would just like to see an accurate, unbiased list of games. 

Finally, no need to try to talk down to me and act as if you're informing me about games about which I am unaware. I own many of these games in the original print and remember when virtually all of them were in development.

If you want to do something that's actually meaningful, listen to the constructive criticism with an open mind and go about trying to implement a more sound means of making the list. Until then, how is one to take the list seriously? 

 

[JamesRobot | 5,840]

Oh hey, you can mark me down for a vote for Lawn Mower .