Game Debate #185: Superman (N64)

[Reed Rothchild | 9,548]

Just now, OptOut said:

once I've beat the whole game.

 

[OptOut | 8,889]

7 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

 

You have obviously forgotten my tolerance for absolute trash...

Must I remind you the N64 is my favorite game system of all time? 

[RH | 4,918]

5 minutes ago, OptOut said:

You have obviously forgotten my tolerance for absolute trash...

Must I remind you the N64 is my favorite game system of all time? 

What this game is saying to @OptOut right now.

 

Edited January 18 by RH

[OptOut | 8,889]

Alright, I'm gonna come out and just say it: flying through the rings is fun! It's actually fun!!!

Yeah, Superman handles like a flying shopping cart, especially if you have to stop and turn around, but frankly that's a SKILL issue, IMO. If you can handle a trident controller and a stiff stick, it's not even a thing. 

[GPX | 1,370]

21 hours ago, OptOut said:

Alright, I'm gonna come out and just say it: flying through the rings is fun! It's actually fun!!!

Yeah, Superman handles like a flying shopping cart, especially if you have to stop and turn around, but frankly that's a SKILL issue, IMO. If you can handle a trident controller and a stiff stick, it's not even a thing. 

Are you referring to only the rings stage? Or his movements throughout the whole game? Impressed with your enthusiasm with all things N64. I’m now in the contemplation phase with regards to this game.

 

[OptOut | 8,889]

2 hours ago, GPX said:

Are you referring to only the rings stage? Or his movements throughout the whole game? Impressed with your enthusiasm with all things N64. I’m now in the contemplation phase with regards to this game.

 

I've continued to play and I'm not wavering at all! I'm about halfway through now, I've done a few more ring stages and a few more regular stages and yeah... It's clunky, it's simplistic, but it's actually fun. It's a bad game, there's no denying that, but it's working for me, I'm stroking along the grain and making progress, and genuinely enjoying myself!

So far, I'm saying the 4 stands. No way it's hitting 5 at this rate, but there's nothing dragging me down to a 3 either. I'm going to keep playing and do what I said, I will rate it when I'm finished, but right now, I actually am enjoying myself!

[koifish | 556]

On 1/5/2024 at 10:16 AM, ikk said:

I beat it last year, but I have no idea what to rate this game. The flying through rings works and is actually enjoyable, but all the short missions in between are laughably bad and if you fail you have to redo the rings.

You will die a lot for stupid reasons because the game is broken, like you take damage during a cutscene or sometimes just fall when you fly into something. As frustrating as these moments can be, it did make me laugh more than most games. I even had 1 mission where I died after finishing a mission

It almost reaches so bad it's good territory for me. I'll just give it a 3.

I feel the same way about Sonic 06. That game is like The Room for me. No such love for superman 64 however; Second time I failed a mission and had to fly through rings is when I chucked the cart.

[OptOut | 8,889]

I'm still going strong! I found out that I won't actually be able to beat the game on Normal mode, which is what I had been playing on up till this point, so I started again on Superman mode!

So far, it's a LITTLE harder than before, but because I've already done it once, it's not really slowing me down much. Still enjoying myself, I will continue to update on my progress as I near completion. 

[OptOut | 8,889]

14 hours ago, OptOut said:

I'm still going strong! I found out that I won't actually be able to beat the game on Normal mode, which is what I had been playing on up till this point, so I started again on Superman mode!

So far, it's a LITTLE harder than before, but because I've already done it once, it's not really slowing me down much. Still enjoying myself, I will continue to update on my progress as I near completion. 

OMG I think I'm becoming something of a Superman 64 savant... I just got back to this warehouse level where there's this tricky part where you have to escort Lois Lane to the exit. It's pretty annoying because you need to fly ahead of her to deal with badguys before she gets to them, but if you do that then additional bad guys spawn next to her and you need to fly back quick to save her.

Anyway, she died like a bitch on me a bunch of times and I was thinking like, man, you know? But then all of a sudden I come up with this genius big brain strat! Before you talk to her to trigger the escort mission, you can just fly back through the level and killed all the dudes and even the boss before she moves an inch. After that I was going to fly back and escort her scot-free, but then I just flew to the end to scope ahead and just straight beat the level without even having her move!

It's like this game really just works best if you let the jank flow THROUGH you, you know. I'm like the ultimate vessel for this game's broken gameplay! 

 

[OptOut | 8,889]

Boom!

Finally found time to polish this one off, and... Yeah, you know what? I had fun! It's NOT an abomination, or the second coming of Satan. It's a rushed, unfinished beta-level game, with big ambitions and a lot of ideas that could very easily have been SO much better with a little more time in the oven. But the core elements ARE here, and there are absolutely glimpses of what this game could and should have been throughout.

It's WAY more playable than people give it credit for. The controls are clunky, but they are CONSISTENT. Once you figure out how best to achieve the movement and action you want, you can perform pretty well, and the game is easy enough and forgiving enough with health drops that you really don't have any excuse for giving up.

As far as glitches, yeah, there are a few, most notably OOB and clipping related. But when they happen they are usually more funny than frustrating, IMO, and it wasn't often I'd actually have to restart a mission, or even if I did, it's not really like these levels are that long to redo stuff.

As for the famous onion rings, I'm just gonna straight up own that one. Best part of the game, I actually really enjoy the ring segments. You genuinely DO get a feeling of flying around like Superman, it's fun! The city is actually impressively large, even if you don't get much of a sense of that due to the fog. But, you play the game enough and you play through all the ring stages, and you DO genuinely start to recognize various areas of the city and start to get familiar with the place. If they had more time to come up with a few better objectives and ways to put more variety into the ring stages, that would have immediately improved the game even further, but as it stands I still enjoyed myself.

And, having said and done it all, absolutely I stand by this game I'll defend it from anyone who hasn't even bothered to give it a go and just shits on it because it's a popular opinion. I wouldn't suggest regular people go out of their way to play it, but if you're an N64 fan, and if you're someone with a decent tolerance and patience for bad games, ABSOLUTELY give this one a go, it's WAY better than people say.

4.5/10, better than LTTP.

[RH | 4,918]

Never mind.  I forgot you answered my question and I thought someone else posted what  you stated.

Edited February 3 by RH

[Brickman | 3,994]

5 hours ago, OptOut said:

Boom!

Finally found time to polish this one off, and... Yeah, you know what? I had fun! It's NOT an abomination, or the second coming of Satan. It's a rushed, unfinished beta-level game, with big ambitions and a lot of ideas that could very easily have been SO much better with a little more time in the oven. But the core elements ARE here, and there are absolutely glimpses of what this game could and should have been throughout.

It's WAY more playable than people give it credit for. The controls are clunky, but they are CONSISTENT. Once you figure out how best to achieve the movement and action you want, you can perform pretty well, and the game is easy enough and forgiving enough with health drops that you really don't have any excuse for giving up.

As far as glitches, yeah, there are a few, most notably OOB and clipping related. But when they happen they are usually more funny than frustrating, IMO, and it wasn't often I'd actually have to restart a mission, or even if I did, it's not really like these levels are that long to redo stuff.

As for the famous onion rings, I'm just gonna straight up own that one. Best part of the game, I actually really enjoy the ring segments. You genuinely DO get a feeling of flying around like Superman, it's fun! The city is actually impressively large, even if you don't get much of a sense of that due to the fog. But, you play the game enough and you play through all the ring stages, and you DO genuinely start to recognize various areas of the city and start to get familiar with the place. If they had more time to come up with a few better objectives and ways to put more variety into the ring stages, that would have immediately improved the game even further, but as it stands I still enjoyed myself.

And, having said and done it all, absolutely I stand by this game I'll defend it from anyone who hasn't even bothered to give it a go and just shits on it because it's a popular opinion. I wouldn't suggest regular people go out of their way to play it, but if you're an N64 fan, and if you're someone with a decent tolerance and patience for bad games, ABSOLUTELY give this one a go, it's WAY better than people say.

4.5/10, better than LTTP.

Good write up. I was actually expecting a 5-5.5 reading that review but was surprised to see the 4 (that’s your real score I assume and you just added the .5 to spite Reed )

I may check it out one day when I’m bored and want to experience it for myself.

You mention in your review that you’ll defend it against those who haven’t given it a go. I’d argue that you haven’t given a LttP a fair go. Getting to the start of the dark world isn’t giving it a go, that’s barely even starting the game. The game essentially starts from the dark world!

I was once like you, thinking LttP is not that great and didn’t buy the hype but once I made solid progress in the dark world, I saw how great the game is.

Play through the whole game and I’d be surprised if you honestly gave the game a 4. Some of the late dungeons are some of the toughest and well designed dungeons in a Zelda game.

[OptOut | 8,889]

11 minutes ago, Brickman said:

Good write up. I was actually expecting a 5-5.5 reading that review but was surprised to see the 4 (that’s your real score I assume and you just added the .5 to spite Reed )

I may check it out one day when I’m bored and want to experience it for myself.

You mention in your review that you’ll defend it against those who haven’t given it a go. I’d argue that you haven’t given a LttP a fair go. Getting to the start of the dark world isn’t giving it a go, that’s barely even starting the game. The game essentially starts from the dark world!

I was once like you, thinking LttP is not that great and didn’t buy the hype but once I made solid progress in the dark world, I saw how great the game is.

Play through the whole game and I’d be surprised if you honestly gave the game a 4. Some of the late dungeons are some of the toughest and well designed dungeons in a Zelda game.

I'm not sure whose critique of LttP you've read, but I've played through the game three separate times, getting as far as Ganon's castle each time (although never having beaten the game.)

I played once in my teens on the SNES, picking it up around 02, once on the 3DS virtual console, and once on the SNES mini, and I found it dreadfully boring each time. I only pushed through because I WANTED to like the game, and I wanted to finally finish it, but I could never find the umph to do so. I also don't enjoy the first Zelda game either.

I just can't get into it, as much as I've tried, sorry! 

[RH | 4,918]

17 minutes ago, OptOut said:

I'm not sure whose critique of LttP you've read, but I've played through the game three separate times, getting as far as Ganon's castle each time (although never having beaten the game.)

I played once in my teens on the SNES, picking it up around 02, once on the 3DS virtual console, and once on the SNES mini, and I found it dreadfully boring each time. I only pushed through because I WANTED to like the game, and I wanted to finally finish it, but I could never find the umph to do so. I also don't enjoy the first Zelda game either.

I just can't get into it, as much as I've tried, sorry! 

You, know, I am trying to give your perspective on these games some personal, critical thought.  I’ve played through Link’s Awakening, LttP, OoT and I played a lot of BotW.  I can say that on the first play for most of these games, I enjoyed them the first time I played them all. LoZ, AoL and Minish Cap are games I’ve picked up and played and weren’t bad but I could never get into.

The main feeling I have about these game though is that I often enjoy the ones I enjoyed from the beginning a lot. However, when I return to them, there’s almost no replay value.  For instance, I’ve started OoT (because it was the most enjoyable first play for a Zelda game I’ve) and I can play a while but I get tired of it at best by the time I get to the whale.  It’s not hard but I just lose interest.

My point is that all of these games that I’ve liked may be excellent but to me that have little to no real replay value.  I think I want to but then when I do try to start the game l, it’s just not fun.

I’ve not tried to play LA in a very long time, so I might enjoy that one.  For me it’s a close second to OoT. That said, I might have to re-evaluate how I’d rate Zelda games.  First experience is always amazing but after that, for me, the fun seems to be a steep drop off.

I can’t say a 4/10 is fair for LttP but his lower score might not be that invalid. At least in my book.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,548]

50 minutes ago, OptOut said:

Ganon's castle

His what? 

Hyrule Castle (early game)

Ganon's pyramid (of power) (endgame)

[Brickman | 3,994]

58 minutes ago, OptOut said:

I'm not sure whose critique of LttP you've read, but I've played through the game three separate times, getting as far as Ganon's castle each time (although never having beaten the game.)

I played once in my teens on the SNES, picking it up around 02, once on the 3DS virtual console, and once on the SNES mini, and I found it dreadfully boring each time. I only pushed through because I WANTED to like the game, and I wanted to finally finish it, but I could never find the umph to do so. I also don't enjoy the first Zelda game either.

I just can't get into it, as much as I've tried, sorry! 

Ahhh ok, must have been someone else then. Sorry about that.

[ZeldaFreak | 3,600]

1 hour ago, OptOut said:

I'm not sure whose critique of LttP you've read, but I've played through the game three separate times, getting as far as Ganon's castle each time (although never having beaten the game.)

I played once in my teens on the SNES, picking it up around 02, once on the 3DS virtual console, and once on the SNES mini, and I found it dreadfully boring each time. I only pushed through because I WANTED to like the game, and I wanted to finally finish it, but I could never find the umph to do so. I also don't enjoy the first Zelda game either.

I just can't get into it, as much as I've tried, sorry! 

I will say it does greatly confuse me that you really like ALBW but strongly dislike ALttP, they are so incredibly similar that I'm not entirely sure how that's possible, haha.

[GPX | 1,370]

7 hours ago, OptOut said:

Boom!

Finally found time to polish this one off, and... Yeah, you know what? I had fun! It's NOT an abomination, or the second coming of Satan. It's a rushed, unfinished beta-level game, with big ambitions and a lot of ideas that could very easily have been SO much better with a little more time in the oven. But the core elements ARE here, and there are absolutely glimpses of what this game could and should have been throughout.

It's WAY more playable than people give it credit for. The controls are clunky, but they are CONSISTENT. Once you figure out how best to achieve the movement and action you want, you can perform pretty well, and the game is easy enough and forgiving enough with health drops that you really don't have any excuse for giving up.

As far as glitches, yeah, there are a few, most notably OOB and clipping related. But when they happen they are usually more funny than frustrating, IMO, and it wasn't often I'd actually have to restart a mission, or even if I did, it's not really like these levels are that long to redo stuff.

As for the famous onion rings, I'm just gonna straight up own that one. Best part of the game, I actually really enjoy the ring segments. You genuinely DO get a feeling of flying around like Superman, it's fun! The city is actually impressively large, even if you don't get much of a sense of that due to the fog. But, you play the game enough and you play through all the ring stages, and you DO genuinely start to recognize various areas of the city and start to get familiar with the place. If they had more time to come up with a few better objectives and ways to put more variety into the ring stages, that would have immediately improved the game even further, but as it stands I still enjoyed myself.

And, having said and done it all, absolutely I stand by this game I'll defend it from anyone who hasn't even bothered to give it a go and just shits on it because it's a popular opinion. I wouldn't suggest regular people go out of their way to play it, but if you're an N64 fan, and if you're someone with a decent tolerance and patience for bad games, ABSOLUTELY give this one a go, it's WAY better than people say.

4.5/10, better than LTTP.

OptOut is the anti-AVGN with respect to N64 games!

Jokes aside, you could make a pretty awesome YouTube reviewer of all things N64. You have my backing!

[OptOut | 8,889]

6 hours ago, ZeldaFreak said:

I will say it does greatly confuse me that you really like ALBW but strongly dislike ALttP, they are so incredibly similar that I'm not entirely sure how that's possible, haha.

Well, one of my main gripes with LttP is how stiff the movement and combat are. I always feel like I'm wrestling with the controls to do what I want, and the enemies always seem to have such a greater freedom of movement, I never feel like I'm fully achieving what I want to do. Link Between Worlds feels smooth as butter by comparison, I get so much more out of the action element of the game.

7 hours ago, Reed Rothchild said:

His what? 

Hyrule Castle (early game)

Ganon's pyramid (of power) (endgame)

His fucking pyramid then, geez. 

[Link | 2,714]

19 hours ago, OptOut said:

I had fun!  ... if you're an N64 fan, and... tolerance for bad games,

I refuse to believe you of all people have never played this before. On its reputation alone.  

13 hours ago, OptOut said:

LttP ... dreadfully boring each time. I also don't enjoy the first Zelda game either.

Waaaaait... 

You don't like Zelda 3, and you don't like Zelda 1? By process of elimination I wonder what is your opinion of Zelda 2? (my fav)

(sorry to all to contribute to the derail lol)

Edited February 4 by Link

[OptOut | 8,889]

1 hour ago, Link said:

You don't like Zelda 3, and you don't like Zelda 1? By process of elimination I wonder what is your opinion of Zelda 2? (my fav)

I guess out of those three, I would go for Zelda II, but even then I'm not hugely into it, mainly due to the difficulty. I'm more into the 3D Zelda games, tbh, although I did greatly enjoy Link's Awakening on GBC as a kid. 

By and large I don't think my dislike of the earlier Zelda games is much to do with they themselves, it's more about my own preferences. I don't like games that have too much talking, I'm not big into RPG style top-down adventure games, I'm much more into games which emphasize action. I also don't really find exploring 2 dimensional worlds much fun, whereas I love exploring 3D worlds, so overall the earlier Zelda games just don't do much for me.

[DefaultGen | 5,413]

Opty let me know when you want to start the bad game club. Next month’s game can be Bubsy 3D.

[OptOut | 8,889]

34 minutes ago, DefaultGen said:

Opty let me know when you want to start the bad game club. Next month’s game can be Bubsy 3D.

It looks pretty good to me! 

[RH | 4,918]

2 hours ago, DefaultGen said:

Opty let me know when you want to start the bad game club. Next month’s game can be Bubsy 3D.

 

1 hour ago, OptOut said:

It looks pretty good to me! 

I kind of like that idea.  Maybe once a month, pick a historically acclaimed “bad game”, we all play at least some of it and we discuss.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,090]

On 2/3/2024 at 1:14 PM, RH said:

However, when I return to them, there’s almost no replay value.  For instance, I’ve started OoT (because it was the most enjoyable first play for a Zelda game I’ve) and I can play a while but I get tired of it at best by the time I get to the whale.  It’s not hard but I just lose interest.

My point is that all of these games that I’ve liked may be excellent but to me that have little to no real replay value.  I think I want to but then when I do try to start the game l, it’s just not fun.

I'm kind of starting to agree with this.  I started up OOT again a few years ago after not playing it in over a decade, and I also lost interest and gave up at the big whale dungeon.  And more recently, this last Christmas (a little over a month ago) I was all hyped up to finally sit down and replay LTTP due to it showing up at #1 on Reed's SNES list, but I just could not fight the boredom and ended up giving up in the middle of the first palace in the dark world: it just felt so much like tedious work doing the same thing over and over but with different colored background blocks in each dungeon.  And I'm a guy who got both of these games right at release and had absolutely magical experiences with them the first time through, and I hold them in the highest esteem whenever I'm thinking fondly of those warm fuzzy memories I have of playing those two games for the first time.  But as it stands right now, I can't even stomach the thought of having to play through either one of them ever again in my life, so you are definitely not alone!

Non-NES Zelda games = no replay value for me...

Edited February 5 by Dr. Morbis