Selling to a Dumper

[fcgamer | 4,753]

Right, so I just received an order a few days back from the guy that I believe had dumped two of the indie Famicom games I had done, and the guy ordered a different title. 

As the creator of the game, I feel a bit conflicted. I suspect that the guy is purchasing for the sole purpose of dumping said game, which is something I personally am not particularly keen of; at the same time, I realize that for almost every game software out there (even Star Keeper, yes), at some point it's likely someone would dump it and release a ROM, whether I like it or not, so maybe I should at least be the guy that sells to the guy that dumps the game, rather than him buying or borrowing a copy off someone else?

At the same time, it sort of feels weird selling to someone knowing that you are enabling him to rip you off.

Thoughts?

Edited February 1, 2023 by fcgamer

[nrslam | 477]

Personally, I wouldn't sell, just as I wouldn't knowingly sell to a flipper. No need for me to enable bad behavior.

[portabello | 99]

How do you know he is dumping the games? 

[Gloves | 11,828]

In modern game dev we typically will put unique IDs on software that is visible, and something hidden. Then when someone leaks the ROM we know exactly who it was, and can crack down, or even sue. 

Depending on order quantity, maybe do that. 

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

I don't  think you should be concerned with what others do with their property- especially when you don't have actual proof, outside of your beliefs. 
 

Plus, we have People like Tanooki who openly advocate for stealing others IP by dumping games and making repros, so everything is fair game nowadays. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by MrWunderful

[Ankos | 463]

12 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

I don't  think you should be concerned with what others do with their property- especially when you don't have actual proof, outside of your beliefs. 
 

Plus, we have People like Tanooki who openly advocate for stealing others IP by dumping games and making repros, so everything is fair game nowadays. 

If a program is made and sold, then it doesn't give the buyer to go around pirating it. It does not matter what it was made for. Same reason why I can't just go around pirating and making copies of switch games

[Sumez | 2,990]

Jesus, just make the ROM available yourself, and if it's something you created, sell it for money. Win/win! 

What kind of ridiculous mentality dictates that games should only exist in limited supply on physical cartridges, available only to a select limited audience? 

[Gloves | 11,828]

10 minutes ago, Sumez said:

Jesus, just make the ROM available yourself, and if it's something you created, sell it for money. Win/win! 

What kind of ridiculous mentality dictates that games should only exist in limited supply on physical cartridges, available only to a select limited audience? 

Yeah, most folks make their stuff buy able on itch or similar. Money left on the table tbh. 

[Scrobins | 1,727]

54 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Plus, we have People like Tanooki who openly advocate for stealing others IP by dumping games and making repros, so everything is fair game nowadays. 

Let’s please focus on the merits of the question posed rather than devolve into unprovoked personal invective.

[Scrobins | 1,727]

I think it’s ultimately your store and you have the right to refuse service, especially if you have strong reason to believe they are effectively stealing from you.

It’s certainly hard to protect against unless you take the added, and often prohibitive cost of making the game undumpable. While I agree that sellers leave potential money on the table by not pursuing all possible revenue streams, it’s their prerogative what they do with their blood, sweat, and tears.

And while advocating for more digital availability of games is a worthwhile effort, dumping those games to make a little coin yourself does not make you Robin Hood or a “preservationist” (I use quotes because there are actual preservationists out there, and unless you consistently work toward such an archive, you’re just a cheap jerk making excuses because you can’t get what you want by legitimate means). It just makes you a thief with a poor attitude of “who’s going to stop me?”

[FireHazard51 | 2,051]

4 hours ago, fcgamer said:

Right, so I just received an order a few days back from the guy that I believe had dumped two of the indie Famicom games I had done, and the guy ordered a different title. 

As the creator of the game, I feel a bit conflicted. I suspect that the guy is purchasing for the sole purpose of dumping said game, which is something I personally am not particularly keen of; at the same time, I realize that for almost every game software out there (even Star Keeper, yes), at some point it's likely someone would dump it and release a ROM, whether I like it or not, so maybe I should at least be the guy that sells to the guy that dumps the game, rather than him buying or borrowing a copy off someone else?

At the same time, it sort of feels weird selling to someone knowing that you are enabling him to rip you off.

Thoughts?

Need the money?  Sell!

Worried about losing return costumer?  Sell!

Don't need the money or that costumer's patronage?  Don't sell

 

I mean if you put a game up for sell you basically have no control of the game being dumped unless you take actions on every cart sold to prevent the dumping.  I mean if the game was already dumped before this guy would you still sell it to a person who would dump it again?  

Basically you do you.  But be realistic, if you are leave your code unsecured you shouldn't be surprised when it's dumped.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

1 hour ago, Ankos said:

If a program is made and sold, then it doesn't give the buyer to go around pirating it. It does not matter what it was made for. Same reason why I can't just go around pirating and making copies of switch games

I understand how IPs work. What if the buyer is dumping it for himself as a backup for his physical media? Nothing was said about him dumping it and releasing it as a pirate and making copies. 
 

This whole thing is based on a feeling, unless there is evidence that OP isnt telling us about. 
 

1 hour ago, Scrobins said:

Let’s please focus on the merits of the question posed rather than devolve into unprovoked personal invective.

Understood. Its not a personal invective, just stating what can be found on this site via an easy search. Nothing I said was untrue. 
 

But just to clarify, is it acceptable to advocate for IP theft on this site due to high retail prices? Curious what the official stance is. 

[Ankos | 463]

10 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

I understand how IPs work. What if the buyer is dumping it for himself as a backup for his physical media? Nothing was said about him dumping it and releasing it as a pirate and making copies.

Ah. I kinda just inferred that fcgamer was referring to piracy. I see no issue with people dumping for personal use

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

4 minutes ago, Ankos said:

Ah. I kinda just inferred that fcgamer was referring to piracy. I see no issue with people dumping for personal use

I'm pretty sure that's what fcgamer was getting at, as there's zero sane reason to refuse to sell to someone who's solely dumping a game for their own personal use.

I personally don't see any reason to deny them, as if they're buying it to dump and distribute it and get denied, they'll just get someone else to buy it for them, then hand it to them to dump and distribute.  Unless you just never sell any copies at all or somehow make it completely undumpable, games are going to get dumped and distributed illicitly if someone wants to do that, whether the IP holder likes it or not.  So folks should just go ahead and make the buck and move on with their lives versus worrying about what people are doing with the product they've bought.

If someone really wants to catch the illegal dumpers, they need to sell ROMs only, then personalize each one somehow so that if/when one pops up in piracy circles, they know exactly who to go after for it.  That's what the Academy Awards did with their screeners, and it drastically reduced the amount of piracy immediately.

[NoWaves | 5]

My feeling on, this, and piracy in general, is that the people pirating your game aren't likely to have been paying customers in the first place (especially releases for decades old hardware). Whether or not they "deserve" to be able to play the game or not, it's unlikely you'd see a decrease in revenue. There's also the people who are interested enough to emulate it, but not pay the money for a physical release, might end up grabbing a copy because they liked the game so much. Hell, most of my collection is stuff I pirated as a kid before I had any money and played in emulators.

That being said, people making repros with said dump, when the game is readily available from official sources is scummy as all hell. If that's the case with this person, I wouldn't sell, or I'd at least sell a "personalized" copy. Otherwise, I'd say go for it, and possibly upload the ROM yourself so the people searching for the ROM get it from you and are even aware physical releases exist, and get familiar with you as a developer.

[Sumez | 2,990]

5 hours ago, NoWaves said:

That being said, people making repros with said dump, when the game is readily available from official sources is scummy as all hell. If that's the case with this person, I wouldn't sell, or I'd at least sell a "personalized" copy.

Go after the people selling the "repros", not the person you're suspecting dumped it. Making money off pirated software is scummy as fuck, whether the game is "readily available" or not.
I don't have a massive issue with other people engaging in piracy - whatever reasons they could have that's always a debate that can go on forever - but actually profiting from it just can't be defended in any way.

[Tyree_Cooper | 771]

don't sell it to a dumpster

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,017]

Would you sell your art work to someone who was gna photocopy it and hang a smallernpne in their bathroom? As long has the buyer isn't pirating it, dumping doesn't really matter. 

[phart010 | 1,708]

My wife designed a product once. Basically when you design something, the business model is to sell as much of it as you can, as fast as you can. Because eventually, people will copy it. You can’t do anything to stop it from happening 

[JamesRobot | 5,825]

Git that money!