Thoughts on Mega Man 5 on the NES?

[NostalgicMachine | 236]

Exactly what it sounds like. I'm a huge fan of 4 and 6, but 5 is an above average game that I feel gets overlooked because it's a late-release NES Mega Man title.

I've obviously been on an NES Mega Man kick for the last week and a half. I'm curious what the community's thoughts are on MM5?

Edited July 6, 2022 by Van Jackson

[Sumez | 2,963]

Probably my second least favourite NES Mega Man, but that honestly isn't saying much - they are all really good.

Also what's up with Mega Man's face...

[Tanooki | 4,934]

Was my last one when new. Mm6 was a few years later second hand local for like $5 and all these years I’ve never finished it. Not really sure why other than not determined to. I found 5 the most bland of the lot but I did finish it. I liked 6 more for the designs yet never saw the ending.  Go figure. 

[MegaMan52 | 2,447]

Mega Man 5 is my favorite game in the series (with Mega Man 3 being a close second), and I remember posting several reasons why in your Mega Man 2 is overrated topic on NintendoAge which I'll list again below. 

I seem to remember people liking Mega Man 5 a lot in the early 2000's. It was up there with Mega Man 2 and 3. Nowadays it is probably one of the most underrated games in the series.

Reasons why Mega Man 5 is my favorite: 

Rush Coil is different - Now, I'm not saying this is a better version of Rush Coil but I'm glad they at least tried something a little different. 

Each level has something unique - Gyro Man's stage has an elevator section where you need to avoid spikes, Stone Man's stage has no less than three hidden rooms, Star Man's stage has low gravity, Gravity Man's stage has changing gravity, Wave Man's stage has both a section where you jump on bubbles and an auto-scroll section, Charge Man's stage has you riding both on top of and inside a train, etc.

Rush Marine was removed - Other than Mega Man II on Game Boy, Rush Marine isn't very useful in the games it's been in. Not only that, but Mega Man 5 only has one underwater level.

Beat is useful - Beat was introduced in this game, and you know what? He's useful, especially during the final battle.

The Super Arrow - I like the Super Arrow because it is basically a three in one item. You can ride on it, you can use it as a weapon, and you can use it on walls.

The Mega Buster is awesome - The charged shots look cool in this game and have a different sound effect than Mega Man 4. It's slightly disappointing they didn't re-use this game's charge shot sound effect in Mega Man 6, but at least it was used in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. People criticize the Mega Buster for being overpowered in this game, but the game doesn't force you to use it. You can use other weapons on the bosses like the other games in the series.

Edited July 19, 2022 by MegaMan52

[twiztor | 851]

i think 5 is a pretty great game. Unfortunately, to me it just feels very "same-y". Where as MM3 introduced the slide, and MM4 brought in the charge shot, MM5 just felt like more of the same. i think that is the real reason it gets overlooked.

[Tanooki | 4,934]

5 minutes ago, twiztor said:

i think 5 is a pretty great game. Unfortunately, to me it just feels very "same-y". Where as MM3 introduced the slide, and MM4 brought in the charge shot, MM5 just felt like more of the same. i think that is the real reason it gets overlooked.

That was my problem with it.  I think that's why I just was not into 5, said it was bland, but I finished it, once.  It put me off the series, despite seeing 6 in NP I just didn't care to dig deep enough to bother as I had the SNES by then and better stuff to care about.  Keep in mind MM6 was out AFTER (3mo) Mega Man X, which I did grab.  I saw sure it had a cool centaur, but nothing special stood out from 5 which I made myself finish as it didn't do anything special like previous titles.  Maybe that's why 6 did more, but it was too little too late.  That's why I think really not just 5 but also 6 get overlooked.  They were late, 5 did nothing special just was good at being same-y, and 6 did some special stuff but was brushed under the rug being 3 years late to the SNES party so it makes more sense to be ignored too.

[CMR | 520]

2 and 5 are my favorites.  I wasn't as impressed with 4 as others seem to be, although it did have it's moments.  6 is also great while 3 didn't really impress me that much. 

[ifightdragons | 234]

Mega Man 5 is my favorite MM-game.

It's the most polished, and best controlling game of the classic series. MM6 messed up the controls a little with some sloppy input detection. MM6 is still great, though.

The only thing missing is the iconic soundtrack of MM2.

Heck, it's my favorite NES game.

Edited July 7, 2022 by ifightdragons

[Sumez | 2,963]

2 hours ago, ifightdragons said:

MM6 messed up the controls a little with some sloppy input detection.

Huh, what did they mess up? Thinking about exiting slides?

[phart010 | 1,707]

6 hours ago, ifightdragons said:

Mega Man 5 is my favorite MM-game.

It's the most polished, and best controlling game of the classic series. MM6 messed up the controls a little with some sloppy input detection.

The only thing missing is the iconic soundtrack of MM2.

Heck, it's my favorite NES game.

Are you playing it in 50 Hz or 60 Hz?

[ifightdragons | 234]

6 hours ago, Sumez said:

Huh, what did they mess up? Thinking about exiting slides?

MM6 has some dodgy input detection. Doesn't happen often, but it can misregister or miss an input.

The slide/jump issue, like you mentioned. You can't jump out of a slide.

But also jumps not registering if hit simultaneously while switching directions. This only happens sometimes, which makes it even worse. It's inconsistent.

Edited July 7, 2022 by ifightdragons

[ifightdragons | 234]

2 hours ago, phart010 said:

Are you playing it in 50 Hz or 60 Hz?

60hz

[phart010 | 1,707]

1 minute ago, ifightdragons said:

60hz

Even so, I wonder if there could be a slight frequency conversion issue. I believe you are in Europe, right? Megaman 1-5 came out in Europe whereas 6 was only in North America and Japan. 
 

There’s lots of variables that can contribute to input lag including the tv, console. Are you comparing MM6 to the North American versions of other Megaman games or the European versions? 
 

Im not sure if the European versions of Megaman were coded for 50Hz or if they are the same exact code as the 60Hz games just running on a slower frequency, but in any case these are alll things worth considering.

Or of course, MM6 could just be more laggy as you have said

[ifightdragons | 234]

8 minutes ago, phart010 said:

Even so, I wonder if there could be a slight frequency conversion issue. I believe you are in Europe, right? Megaman 1-5 came out in Europe whereas 6 was only in North America and Japan. 
 

There’s lots of variables that can contribute to input lag including the tv, console. Are you comparing MM6 to the North American versions of other Megaman games or the European versions? 
 

Im not sure if the European versions of Megaman were coded for 50Hz or if they are the same exact code as the 60Hz games just running on a slower frequency, but in any case these are alll things worth considering.

Or of course, MM6 could just be more laggy as you have said

Please read this: https://m.facebook.com/MegaManUnlimited/posts/835809839839913

It's just how MM6 was programmed. Not everyone will notice it while playing. I am not talking about input lag. I am talking about inputs not registering in certain situations. See link for specific info.

While you are right that I am European, I only play NTSC games on compatible hardware and monitors. So only 60hz here. No PAL games, no PAL consoles, nor any 50hz displays.

I've tested across original hardware, emulation, Analogue Nt mini fpga, as well as original cart and EverDrive N8. Even tested on a PVM, as well as modern LED.

Tested with OEM controllers in pristine condition, as well as with 2.4G 8BitDo.

Same results everytime. MM6 has control issues.

Edited July 7, 2022 by ifightdragons

[Sumez | 2,963]

21 minutes ago, ifightdragons said:

But also jumps not registering if hit simultaneously while switching directions. This only happens sometimes, which makes it even worse. It's inconsistent.

Odd, I'm almost certain it's never happened to me, but then if it only happens once every second playthrough I'd probably be more likely to blame the controller. Did someone ever make a patch to fix? I'd be curious to look into the code to see what happens.

[Sumez | 2,963]

22 minutes ago, phart010 said:

Even so, I wonder if there could be a slight frequency conversion issue. I believe you are in Europe, right? Megaman 1-5 came out in Europe whereas 6 was only in North America and Japan. 

Just to clear this stuff up, you can play on a 60hz NES or a 50hz NES, that's pretty much the only options there are, nothing else is being "converted", so playing on a 60hz NES in Europe is exactly the same as doing so in Japan or North America   But all kinds of things can definitely happen between 50 and 60, even though Mega Man games are less likely to suffer from that.

22 minutes ago, phart010 said:

Im not sure if the European versions of Megaman were coded for 50Hz or if they are the same exact code as the 60Hz games just running on a slower frequency, but in any case these are alll things worth considering.

I looked into all of the games, and it's a little strange. First of all, none of the games run any differently in their European releases except Mega Man 3. The physics/timings are slightly different in that game, but it doesn't really do anything to adjust for the slower framerate, so I'm not sure what they were going for.

For both 3, 4, and 5 however, the timing of the music was adjusted to play faster, while the European releases of 1 and 2 will actually play the music too slow on a European console. I prefer that approach though, since it means you can just run those two games fine on a 60hz console, while 3/4/5 won't be right on either console!

Mega Man 2 also seems to have sample rates adjusted for the 50hz consoles, which is kinda odd considering they didn't change the speed of the music. It means the European version will have slightly higher pitched sounds, but personally I don't have an ear for that stuff and can't tell the difference.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Sumez

[ifightdragons | 234]

Like mentioned, this is not related to regional variations.

It's an issue I've seen reported several places, and mentioned in videos. I can also easily reproduce it in each playthrough.

[MegaMan52 | 2,447]

@ifightdragonsI know what you're talking about. There are instances in Mega Man 6 where if you press the jump button, Mega Man sometimes doesn't jump. I've noticed this mainly during boss battles. Not only does this happen in the NES version, but also in Rockman Complete Works and Mega Man Anniversary Collection. Probably also happens in Legacy Collection as well.

Edited July 7, 2022 by MegaMan52

[phart010 | 1,707]

1 hour ago, ifightdragons said:

Like mentioned, this is not related to regional variations.

It's an issue I've seen reported several places, and mentioned in videos. I can also easily reproduce it in each playthrough.

I understand what you are saying now. But the frequency thing is a possibility too even if nobody really notices it.

 

1 hour ago, Sumez said:

Just to clear this stuff up, you can play on a 60hz NES or a 50hz NES, that's pretty much the only options there are, nothing else is being "converted", so playing on a 60hz NES in Europe is exactly the same as doing so in Japan or North America   But all kinds of things can definitely happen between 50 and 60, even though Mega Man games are less likely to suffer from that.

I agree there are only two different frequencies that we are dealing with here: 50 and 60.

I don’t know how exactly how the NES operates or what it’s tolerances for out of bounds frequency is, but it sounds like a 50Hz system will still operate at 60Hz as long as supply voltage is correct and Vice versus. 
 

Some electronic devices are more sensitive to frequencies being out of a defined bounds. Some just pass it through and operate at whatever frequency you supply them with. Some will convert (clean) input power to the proper frequency and voltage that it needs. This conversion process could cause lag of a few milliseconds/cycles. 
 

When you stack multiple devices doing signal conversion on top of each other, it can add up to a more detectable amount of lag. For example if the tv is converting signals, the console (not necessarily NES, could also be a clone console like a Retron), or external video signal processors

[Sumez | 2,963]

6 minutes ago, phart010 said:

I don’t know how exactly how the NES operates or what it’s tolerances for out of bounds frequency is, but it sounds like a 50Hz system will still operate at 60Hz as long as supply voltage is correct and Vice versus. 
 

Some electronic devices are more sensitive to frequencies being out of a defined bounds. Some just pass it through and operate at whatever frequency you supply them with. Some will convert (clean) input power to the proper frequency and voltage that it needs. This conversion process could cause lag of a few milliseconds/cycles. 

Well, I know how an NES operates, and what I was trying to say is that what you are talking about is not a thing at all.

While electrical current can indeed be really weird and cause all sorts of fun effects in analog systems especially, the NES is a digital system, controlled by a clock crystal, a CPU, and software. How it operates is 100% predictable, so knock that idea out of your head

50hz vs 60hz has nothing to do with the voltage (you gotta go way back to when tv transmissions were first invented to find that relation). 60hz video works as fine in Europe as 50hz works in America, the difference is simply that you can't expect consumer TVs to support them out of the box (even if a lot of them will). Therefore the European NES was designed to run at a different clock rate, with a slightly redesigned PPU (graphics chip) that outputs 50 frames per second instead of 60, but adding more blank scanlines on each frame. 

The difference is entirely in the hardware design, and the game code will still work completely the same way, it's just that if the programmers intended some code to be timed to the video input there can be glitches, but even those are 100% predictable

It's actually kinda scary how precise computers are, but then again they really need to be. 

Hopefully that cleared up a bit. 

[phart010 | 1,707]

1 hour ago, Sumez said:

Well, I know how an NES operates, and what I was trying to say is that what you are talking about is not a thing at all.

While electrical current can indeed be really weird and cause all sorts of fun effects in analog systems especially, the NES is a digital system, controlled by a clock crystal, a CPU, and software. How it operates is 100% predictable, so knock that idea out of your head

50hz vs 60hz has nothing to do with the voltage (you gotta go way back to when tv transmissions were first invented to find that relation). 60hz video works as fine in Europe as 50hz works in America, the difference is simply that you can't expect consumer TVs to support them out of the box (even if a lot of them will). Therefore the European NES was designed to run at a different clock rate, with a slightly redesigned PPU (graphics chip) that outputs 50 frames per second instead of 60, but adding more blank scanlines on each frame. 

The difference is entirely in the hardware design, and the game code will still work completely the same way, it's just that if the programmers intended some code to be timed to the video input there can be glitches, but even those are 100% predictable

It's actually kinda scary how precise computers are, but then again they really need to be. 

Hopefully that cleared up a bit. 

I’m not arguing with you on how the NES operates as I’m sure that you know it well. Yea an oscillator would definitely eliminate any timing issues… I’m more of an electrical guy than an electronics guy, so excuse me for not immediately thinking of that.
 

Totally unrelated, I wasn’t claiming frequency had any relation to voltage (although they do in macro scale electrical generation). I was talking about input variables independently being within tolerance. But yea, Megaman = GOOD

Edited July 7, 2022 by phart010

[fox | 1,667]

The weakest link of the old school six

[Lynda Monica | 350]

I'd say it's my second least favourite, only beating out Mega Man 3. The first one is my favourite, then 2, 4, 6, 5, and 3.

I know nobody asked, but for Mega Man 5 GB I'd rank it right in the middle. My favourite is Wily's Revenge, then 3, 5, 4 and 2.

I know absolutely nobody on this forum would ask this, but if we're talking Battle Network, the fifth one is the king.

Never played the Mega Man X series outside of Mega Man Xtreme, so no comment there.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Lynda Monica

[Tanooki | 4,934]

@Lynda Monica MM Xtreme on GB/C that one basically is MMX with some of X2, just as Xtreme 2 is a mix of MMX2 and 3, it's the same sorry split game shenanigans that Capcom did with MM1-4 on the Gameboy as each were cut between two titles.  The problem is, the smaller resolution cramps the space far more as they don't well account for distance in porting them down to the smaller screen so you get cramped areas and cheap hits/off panel hits, and bosses you have far less room to dodge.  It plagues all the MM/MMX games and MM&Bass too on GBA vs SFC (which by far is the worst for being unfairly cramped.)

If you like MMXtreme you should find MMX1 on SNES highly enjoyable...it is the best of the trio and thankfully a $30~ cheap game which the others are +100 to 150+ on that these days.  Though if the story is of no interest Rockman X2/X3 are about MMX1 USA cheap using Super Famicom carts.

[Lynda Monica | 350]

3 hours ago, Tanooki said:

@Lynda Monica

If you like MMXtreme you should find MMX1 on SNES highly enjoyable...it is the best of the trio and thankfully a $30~ cheap game which the others are +100 to 150+ on that these days.  Though if the story is of no interest Rockman X2/X3 are about MMX1 USA cheap using Super Famicom carts.

Mega Man X 1-5 are games I've been meaning to play for a very long time. I would probably just get one of the compilations of them though, as I think there's a digital one for the Switch.