How did this get graded 85+?

[Magus | 169]

49 minutes ago, joshdose said:

Hello Magus. Joshdose here. Yes, I’m the one who sold you the Chrono Cross VGA 85+. I am a respected member of the collectible video game community and have never purposely tried to hide any flaws before when selling collectible items. I really wish you would have tried to communicate with me a little better on ebay instead of going behind my back and getting encouragement from others, making assumptions of what kind of person I am, and being a repeat eBay resolution center abuser. I have learned that you’ve done this to other sellers. I believe your expectations about what an 85+ should be are too high. Your knowledge about grading seems subpar and your actions disrespectful. I’m sorry to sound ugly, but it is stressful to have to undergo returns of graded merchandise and have my PayPal account locked down. I have been grading games for years and most of my 85+ PS1 games have slight tears in the spines. Many other factors go into the grading process of these. My fault for assuming a buyer would be aware of this and not adding more pictures. It’s clear to me that you would prefer a 90 or higher of this game, which you will never find, unfortunately. In my opinion, this game is worthy of the 85+. I never did take the protective bag off. I never take any of my graded games out of the polybags. This introduces fingerprints and scratches to the acrylic. I see you have your fingers all over the acrylic case, without gloves on, and are now going to ship it back to me. So, thanks for that. I consider it slightly de-valued now. I wish we could have worked out something else,  a partial refund perhaps. I wish you would have had better communication with me after the sale. And to those of you in this thread assuming any negativity on my part, please know that “IT AIN’T LIKE THAT.” Magus, I do appreciate you offering to cover the return shipping, but why not tell me that. I’ve been waiting for a response from you on eBay for over 12 hours and heard nothing. I have to sit and wait in full anxiety, meanwhile you are chatting with everyone else about covering the shipping cost. Don’t you think that’s something I would like to know? Come on man. One day, you are going to want to start selling some of your pieces on eBay. Maybe then, once you deal with a few of these experiences, you’ll know why I’m so upset about this.

I have been selling on ebay for 10 years and have just as many feedbacks at 100% as you do. I am aware at how to properly sell stuff, and i include pictures of multiple angles of everything i sell, i have never had to deal with a return in 10 years because i always accurately list everything and am as descriptive as can be(Knock on wood). I also had nothing but positive feedback here on Nintendoage (VGS) with dozens of people over the years. 

It's kind of common sense when selling anything to take multiple pictures and point any flaws that are standing out. Not just for the buyers sake, but since ebay is harsh on sellers when it comes to claims, having detailed pictures and many angles helps show you did everything you could as a seller to accurately describe your item. Again i should have asked for more pictures, i am not saying i have no fault in the situation that was common sense on my part, i should have known not to assume. But i don't feel that alone means i should just eat the money because you are just as much at fault for not showing the very obvious flaws that stand out. If you just had put a picture of even just the back i could see the large scratch and been on my way. Why did you have no issues posting multiple pictures of this other game you have for sale attached below? But not the one you sold me? Just seems odd and no consistency in how you list items. 

I am also not sure why your paypal is "Locked down" because there is no claim open, just a return request that you accepted. I wasn't aware submitting a return request locks your paypal account down, that doesn't make any sense as how would ebay stores function with the many returns they process. I'll admit, i don't deal with returns so maybe that is the case, but i am not sure why it would do that unless a claim was opened on you putting a hold on the money and your account. 

And done this to other sellers? Repeat abuser? Who? I purchased 2 games from rarebucky weeks ago and had messaged him saying the games he sent me were labeled as "Mint" but had defects on them. But I never even returned them, we ended up talking and he explained that even though they are described as mint they still have some flaws and i took it as a lesson learned. I left him positive feedback and went on my way. I can only assume this is who you are referring to since you are both on SGH and i just spoke with him today about this chrono cross. My only other return in the last few months was a xenosaga with a giant 6 inch scratch/indent(what looks like a key) that wasn't shown in the listing and i specifically asked if it had any noticeable scratches. 

I could have answered you faster, and i am sorry about that, but after you accepted my return yesterday i was just trying to get the game shipped out today at 3pm when i could make it to the post office so i could just provide you with the tracking and let you know it was on its way, so you weren't waiting long to get the game back to relist. I hadn't realized waiting on the cost of shipping would give you this much anxiety as you describe in your post. 

As for fingerprints on the case, i carefully removed the game to take better pictures and placed it right back in the bag. I don't have white gloves handy. Maybe that isn't common practice, but I would imagine carefully cleaning them off with the appropriate cloth and making sure there is no dust to scratch when wiping, is not going to harm the acrylic.

If it does, i will eat the cost of you getting it graded again and getting a brand new acrylic case, and would love to see what it grades as a second time around. 

Edit- I will send you tracking in the next hour. I am sorry again this transaction didn't work out and i do appreciate you taking it back. This obviously isn't something either of us wanted to deal with. Next time i will be buying from sellers with multiple pictures or ask before i buy to have more pictures sent over. 

 

Edited March 2, 2020 by Magus
Corrections

[joshdose | 56]

Most every graded game I have ever listed on eBay has a picture of the front only. Not sure why the Uncharted has multiple shots. I guess I was feeling frisky with my new phone that day and was playing with the camera. Re-submitting a game to change for re-Casing / re-grading is always going to be a gamble. I have learned to trust the grader’s decision and move in. I don’t fret over the grade for very long. 90% of every Sealed black label Chrono cross I have seen (AND I HAVE SEEN A LOT) have all had the ripped spine flaw. This was a known flaw with this game’s seal, which is why it’s incredibly hard to find a gold graded copy of it. If you don’t care about the grade, and are only concerned about the quality of the raw game, you should not venture into the world of graded games. It’s not for you. After grading, I care mostly about the grade and the slab, the game inside is left to the verification of the graders. I trust their processes are strict and mostly accurate. I also trust it to hold it’s value as long as it stays in the slab that way. IT IS GOLD GRADED. That is how I stated it as being in my listing. It did not list the item falsely. Had I accidentally shipped you a VGA 85 copy, then I could understand if you become unsatisfied. I shipped you exactly what I said I would and the item is exactly as described. A slabbed 85+. 

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

[RH | 4,903]

I'm not taking sides, but from time to time I've mentioned my single graded VGA game.  It's a copy of Final Fantasy Adventure that really is in what looks like perfect shape except for one (maybe two) flaws.

The flaw is specifically a small 1/5" puncture in the cardboard box on the back that, somehow, didn't puncture the shrinkwrap.  The second "flaw", which might not be one, is that it has a plastic hang tab.  I assume(d) it came that way from the factory, but maybe the store slapped it on it.  Anyway, that puncture hole is fortunately on the back, so the game looks great, and I assume that's why it got the store that it got, which is an 85.

I've read the general descriptions of WATA and VGAs grades and, honestly, I have no clue how they can be consistent.  There are so many ways an item can be damaged/slightly damaged and if there's specific damage that is so common it's almost expected, I'm not sure if they are little bit lenient when it shows up on an item, possibly like spine wear.  I'm not sticking up for this guy, but unless you really have something that's a 95 or better, you probably need to take photos of the front, back, and specifically noticeable damaged regions.  My seller did take a photo of the puncture mark, so I knew what I was buying.  Even though that was the one game I ever bought, I've just kept in my mind to always pay attention to those fine details because you never know what will show up.

Sellers need to be honest, but buyers also need to ask for more photos if they really, really care.  I'm just saying, ABC-- always be cautious. As a buyer and a seller.

[LifeGame | 760]

I rarely chime in on matters like these where people argue and no offense Magus but i am siding with the seller on this one, i agree with the fact that when you buy a graded game one picture is enough. Front and back is a must if I would sell a graded game but thats it.

If you want more details you ask before buying. Of course for a raw sealed game you need to show pics of flaws since it can be expected that it will be graded.

 

Put it this way, what if someone sells a game that is graded 60 or even 70, there are approx. 10-15 flaws on it you expect the guy to show a picture of each through the case ? Unrealistic expectations I’m sure you will agree.
 

So if it applies to 1 graded game then it applies to all of them.

85+ is not perfect as said before, gold grade doesn’t mean perfect since perfect is 100

I found 2 graded Chrono Cross for sale on ebay, both 85 and none of the 2 sellers shows anything more then front and back pics.

Thats it for me

 

[GPX | 1,369]

23 hours ago, joshdose said:

Most every graded game I have ever listed on eBay has a picture of the front only. Not sure why the Uncharted has multiple shots. I guess I was feeling frisky with my new phone that day and was playing with the camera. Re-submitting a game to change for re-Casing / re-grading is always going to be a gamble. I have learned to trust the grader’s decision and move in. I don’t fret over the grade for very long. 90% of every Sealed black label Chrono cross I have seen (AND I HAVE SEEN A LOT) have all had the ripped spine flaw. This was a known flaw with this game’s seal, which is why it’s incredibly hard to find a gold graded copy of it. If you don’t care about the grade, and are only concerned about the quality of the raw game, you should not venture into the world of graded games. It’s not for you. After grading, I care mostly about the grade and the slab, the game inside is left to the verification of the graders. I trust their processes are strict and mostly accurate. I also trust it to hold it’s value as long as it stays in the slab that way. IT IS GOLD GRADED. That is how I stated it as being in my listing. It did not list the item falsely. Had I accidentally shipped you a VGA 85 copy, then I could understand if you become unsatisfied. I shipped you exactly what I said I would and the item is exactly as described. A slabbed 85+. 

After reading your posts, I would like to apologise for using the “douchebag” word in my previous post. This particular case seems more to me like an issue of grading itself and not necessarily buyer or seller is entirely at fault. 

I just would like to point out:

- seller should take pictures in the least of front and back, because any flaws at the back (not shown) can easily put off a buyer upon receiving it. As collectors, we tend to focus on the front and back surfaces, regardless of sealed or nonsealed.

- buyer (@OP) should accept grading isn’t an exact science and that there can be discrepancies (for several reasons) between items of the same grade; if in doubt, need to ask for more pics before jumping on a purchase.

[Magus | 169]

17 hours ago, LifeGame said:

I rarely chime in on matters like these where people argue and no offense Magus but i am siding with the seller on this one, i agree with the fact that when you buy a graded game one picture is enough. Front and back is a must if I would sell a graded game but thats it.

If you want more details you ask before buying. Of course for a raw sealed game you need to show pics of flaws since it can be expected that it will be graded.

 

Put it this way, what if someone sells a game that is graded 60 or even 70, there are approx. 10-15 flaws on it you expect the guy to show a picture of each through the case ? Unrealistic expectations I’m sure you will agree.
 

So if it applies to 1 graded game then it applies to all of them.

85+ is not perfect as said before, gold grade doesn’t mean perfect since perfect is 100

I found 2 graded Chrono Cross for sale on ebay, both 85 and none of the 2 sellers shows anything more then front and back pics.

Thats it for me

 

To the first bold part, not really following you. First you say one picture is enough, and then say "Front and back is a must if it were graded". This was graded, so you are agreeing with me then that it should have had 2 pictures. 

For the second bold part, again those sellers put front AND back. Like i said it was only a picture of the front for his listing. 

And i do disagree that a game that is gold graded follows the same standards as a 60 or 70. If you are buying a gold graded game you are only dealing with a few flaws at that point and dealing with buyers looking for top tier games. So if it is gold graded and only has a few flaws, all the more reason to point them out especially if they really stand out like the scratch on the back. Again. If there was even just a picture of the back, like the other 2 sellers you yourself pointed out, i could have seen this scratch. 

 

Edited March 3, 2020 by Magus
Spelling

[Magus | 169]

1 hour ago, GPX said:

After reading your posts, I would like to apologise for using the “douchebag” word in my previous post. This particular case seems more to me like an issue of grading itself and not necessarily buyer or seller is entirely at fault. 

I just would like to point out:

- seller should take pictures in the least of front and back, because any flaws at the back (not shown) can easily put off a buyer upon receiving it. As collectors, we tend to focus on the front and back surfaces, regardless of sealed or nonsealed.

- buyer (@OP) should accept grading isn’t an exact science and that there can be discrepancies (for several reasons) between items of the same grade; if in doubt, need to ask for more pics before jumping on a purchase.

I agree with you, from the beginning i had said i should have done my part and gotten more pictures, i own that. I put too much stock in the grade, and a lot of people here even agreed it didn't look like an 85+. Won't make that mistake again as a buyer. 

I just felt it was 50/50 and he also had mistakes and at that point not really sure what the fair solution is for both of us. I never had issues buying or selling in the many years on ebay and on NA. 

[Magus | 169]

After some back and forth we managed to work it out. I ended up just keeping the game and closed the return. (Apparently when you start a return for item not as described it auto locks their account, i was under the impression only a claim did this)

I'll take it as a lesson learned on my end, and hopefully he feels the same way.  I can always resell it instead of making him take the return if i really don't want to keep it. 

Despite us arguing here, we actually had a much better and constructive conversation privately. 

Thanks for all of your opinions on the matter, it was appreciated, even if you disagreed with me, it never hurts to have a bunch of points of view. Because it was so divided here with about a 50/50 split it seemed, it made me think more on it and switch my take on it. 

I genuinely wanted to do the right thing, which is why i even bothered to ask here at all. Otherwise i would have just returned it, not posted here about it and moved on. 



 

Edited March 6, 2020 by Magus
spelling

[Link | 2,709]

On 3/2/2020 at 1:11 PM, Magus said:

even though they are described as mint they still have some flaws and i took it as a lesson learned.

I’d be curious about the nature, size, and number of these flaws, because that doesn’t sound right to me.

[Ninja_xxx | 2]

Good to hear you guys worked it out. I have tons of 85+ that i'm not happy with and have noticeable flaws . Comparing it to my games I do believe that game is 85+ if everything else is mint. Thats why now i try to get only 90 and up which isn't easy or cheap

[Startyde | 175]

I have nothing to contribute here except that I used to have an eye for mint CCs. Ciao!!

Edited March 7, 2020 by Startyde

[oops | 85]

Im in the not an 85+ club

[Magus | 169]

19 hours ago, oops said:

Im in the not an 85+ club

Yeah i think most people agree it's more of an 85. Funny enough i contacted VGA, sent them pictures of the game and serial, and they got back to me and said they stand by their grade and would grade it 85+ again. That the damage is out of the way on the sides and the rest of the game was excellent. So......idk. I think if i go with VGA it will be 90 and up if at all. 

[Magus | 169]

On 3/7/2020 at 1:41 AM, Startyde said:

I have nothing to contribute here except that I used to have an eye for mint CCs. Ciao!!

Yeah that's nice  

[GPX | 1,369]

8 hours ago, Magus said:

Yeah i think most people agree it's more of an 85. Funny enough i contacted VGA, sent them pictures of the game and serial, and they got back to me and said they stand by their grade and would grade it 85+ again. That the damage is out of the way on the sides and the rest of the game was excellent. So......idk. I think if i go with VGA it will be 90 and up if at all. 

At the end of the day, 85 and 85+ aren't clear distinctions. You will have the same issue with variability in grades with any grading service - VGA, WATA or whatever else. Pick your standards and study the numbers of each grading services and see what numbers you would prefer. Then accept you might be let down every so often.

If you're thinking grading services are an exact science, then you will continue to be let down often!

[Startyde | 175]

8 hours ago, Magus said:

Yeah i think most people agree it's more of an 85. Funny enough i contacted VGA, sent them pictures of the game and serial, and they got back to me and said they stand by their grade and would grade it 85+ again. That the damage is out of the way on the sides and the rest of the game was excellent. So......idk. I think if i go with VGA it will be 90 and up if at all. 

Not to drag this out, but I'm kind suprised by this response from VGA as someone who has used them for 10 years. I've had VGA games in the past grade 85+ over minor scuffs and even crooked Staples on the manual of a PS1 game, something that I could not possible affect. I feel like this CC is 85 at best, likely a 80+. For comparison, here is an 85+ I just got back. It has a tiny corner poke in the wrap and nothing else. That warrents the same grade as your two rips? Something seems off.

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Startyde

[Link | 2,709]

I do think grading can be an exact science. Although perhaps not to a granular level of 100 points — obviously VGA agrees, since their steps are in increments of 5. Why then do they differentiate 85 and 85+? Instead of 85 and 87½ or something? Right off, that smells. Even a 10 point scale is a little messed up in my opinion, and when you start putting .5s and +s and A, B, C in it, that indicates a problem system to me. 

So how do you make it exact? Get away from the dick-measuring numbers game, and back to condition names. Where “Mint” actually means something specific, and is exceedingly rare, to the point of near-impossibility for paper items or components. (Also, I have a problem with grading components separately.) I get that the number idea is to standardize things, but it obviously doesn’t work. 

Record the quantity, type, and severity and size of flaws, and qualify things based on that, as I alluded to earlier. It can actually be quite simple. Maybe too verbose for a market that wants a simple numerical score, but that model and market is wrong, because it obfuscates things and allows for these misinterpretations and misunderstandings from all angles—grader, grading company, buyer, seller, competing grading company. When so many people are so serious about this shit though, it’s wrong to boil things down to a simple percentage. 

I suppose the issue is that you need agreement across the field about where the lines are, but I believe this should only be debatable among the lower grades. It should not be hard to agree, for instance, that any quickly noticeable flaw downgrades from Mint instantly. Since money is involved people throw that word around like candy, and that’s a problem. 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Link

[jonebone | 1,307]

7 hours ago, Startyde said:

Not to drag this out, but I'm kind suprised by this response from VGA as someone who has used them for 10 years. I've had VGA games in the past grade 85+ over minor scuffs and even crooked Staples on the manual of a PS1 game, something that I could not possible affect. I feel like this CC is 85 at best, likely a 80+. For comparison, here is an 85+ I just got back. It has a tiny corner poke in the wrap and nothing else. That warrents the same grade as your two rips? Something seems off.

But what would you expect?  Of course they're going to double down on the grade.  They're going to stand behind their graders, as they should, even though the "market" (guys like us) are going to speak up and question it since it looks more like an 85.  If they just nonchalantly say "Ah yeah, we screwed up, should be lower / higher / etc." every time they get an email, then you'd lose faith in the entire system.

Ultimately, remember that grading is subjective and you are paying for an "expert opinion" and nothing more.  The grade on the case is just an opinion, albeit an "expert" one.  We agree it looks overgraded from what we can see but I would expect any grading company to defend their grades.  That's the whole point of the system in place. 

[jonebone | 1,307]

3 hours ago, Link said:

I do think grading can be an exact science. Although perhaps not to a granular level of 100 points — obviously VGA agrees, since their steps are in increments of 5. Why then do they differentiate 85 and 85+? Instead of 85 and 87½ or something? Right off, that smells. Even a 10 point scale is a little messed up in my opinion, and when you start putting .5s and +s and A, B, C in it, that indicates a problem system to me. 

Of course it's simple until you get to borderline games, and a lot of games wind up being borderline.  There's a "firm" 85+ where it's clearly better than 85 but yet has a flaw holding it back from 90.  That's an easy one.  Same with a "firm" 85 or a "firm" at any grade level.

Then you get to a borderline game.  It's better than most of the 85s you see, but not quite as good as most 85+ that you see.  Where do you put it?  It's kind of like scoring a boxing fight.  You got 3 scorers and maybe 1 guy favors one fighter, the other guy favors the 2nd fighter and the 3rd guy calls it a draw.  Well maybe 2 of 3 graders call it 85 and one calls it 85+.  It comes back as a nice 85 as opposed to a weak 85+.

And that is what happens with a subjective system.  No matter how you boil it down grading is not automated process that machines will run.  There is so much subjectivity about certain damages.  

[Magus | 169]

12 hours ago, GPX said:

At the end of the day, 85 and 85+ aren't clear distinctions. You will have the same issue with variability in grades with any grading service - VGA, WATA or whatever else. Pick your standards and study the numbers of each grading services and see what numbers you would prefer. Then accept you might be let down every so often.

If you're thinking grading services are an exact science, then you will continue to be let down often!

It's not that i thought it was an exact science but i expected some consistency. After getting 6 games 85+ and seeing them all in the same ballpark for condition, i was a bit surprised to see this 85+ that is WAY worse in condition. Not just a little worse, i could understand some small inconsistencies, but this was way worse. So I thought i had a good handle on what to expect for this grade, and i know i am not crazy because just about everyone here agrees this was overgraded.

But apparently there can be this much variance where a game slips through like this. Which is not what i was expecting. So if i continue to buy graded i am going to be looking very closely at every inch of the game rather than trust the grade i though i had a handle on. 

[Link | 2,709]

6 hours ago, jonebone said:

And that is what happens with a subjective system.  No matter how you boil it down grading is not automated process that machines will run.  There is so much subjectivity about certain damages.  

I agree that it’s not something that can be automated. I don’t agree that it has to be so unpredictable. Compare VGA’s standards (vague and floaty) to those of Mile High Comics (much more transparent and specific). If you nail things down and reference flaws like ‘tears larger than 1/xth of an inch’ ‘more than x fingerprints’ or specific kinds of writing, you have a better indicator of what people should expect and better chance to avoid surprises like the subject ITT.

[joshdose | 56]

I hate to keep feeding the fire on this thread, but I wanted to take a minute to defend VGA. In total, I have personally sent in about 60 or so games for grading. I’ve learned a lot about what to expect from them with each submission. I also learned to request the add-on grade report for games I was extremely anxious about. You can learn A LOT from these grade reports. It’s the best way to gather insight into what they look for in grading different types of games. In that regard, I have found enough evidence to support the idea that they definitely have a set of strict and consistent standards. Can you blame them for not publicly giving out their grading system protocols / procedures? Unless you purchase a detailed grade report, you won’t know why a game you thought was gem mint scored an 85 or a game you think is unworthy of  gold because there is some flaw on it that can be easy to spot. I’m the only one here, other than VGA, that actually held the CC in my hands and studied it under magnification lighting. The tiny tears in the spine are the only issue I remember this game having. A big factor that goes into grading of jewel case games is yellowing. Most people don’t even know to look for this and won’t ever notice it, unless you have the game unslabbed and compare it to another game that is in fact gem mint. It will drop your grade big time and you won’t even know why. Another thing that’s looked at closely is the centering of the sticker labels on top of the game. A lot of PlayStation games had off-center labels that most people don’t notice or know to even look for. These are just a couple examples, but there are more, a lot more, referenced potential flaws that can be ascertained from VGA’s methods by way of grade reports. In the case of this Chrono Cross, I did not purchase a grade report, but I can attest that it was in fantastic condition overall, before sending it in. (Other than the obvious tears on the side). I mean, I had other sealed Chrono Crosses in my hand that I was able to compare to. Most of them had slight yellowing and / or slight UV fade of the artwork. Both of which would have gone un-noticed by me, had I only had the one copy and no “prettier” or “uglier” ones to compare against. I was quite confident that one was the best overall. If it’s something you genuinely care about, you can instruct them notify you of the grade before slabbing it, if you choose to have it slabbed, inquire about the detailed grade report. There will be no mystery that way.

[Gloves | 11,776]

11 hours ago, Link said:

I agree that it’s not something that can be automated. I don’t agree that it has to be so unpredictable. Compare VGA’s standards (vague and floaty) to those of Mile High Comics (much more transparent and specific). If you nail things down and reference flaws like ‘tears larger than 1/xth of an inch’ ‘more than x fingerprints’ or specific kinds of writing, you have a better indicator of what people should expect and better chance to avoid surprises like the subject ITT.

I completely disagree that it can't be automated. In fact grading video games (or anything else) is something that machine learning would be absolutely perfect for. 

@jonebone calling it subjective is to me lazy. There of course could be very specific, predictable rules put in place that could be followed exactly and perfectly. 

How bad is a hole in the wrap? Let's say it's based on size and position. Let's say a 1cm long cut constitutes a -5 to a grade. Is that cut on the front? Multiply the negative by 1.1 if on front, 1.05 on back. Just an example with simple, made up numbers, but it's a start and far better than giving the grading folks the benefit of the doubt as the experts.

I don't know that it will ever happen, but here's a free idea for any smart folks out there - get your ass on machine learning and set it to making a grading system for games & comics. My money's on you'd straight up kill VGA and Wata in one fell swoop, and if neither of those companies are looking into machine learning they are being foolish IMO. We live in an age of technology and it IS there RIGHT NOW; this is possible TODAY. 

I'd trust a machine that's been set to the specific task of grading games over a human any day.

[Link | 2,709]

1 hour ago, Gloves said:

I completely disagree that it can't be automated. In fact grading video games (or anything else) is something that machine learning would be absolutely perfect for. 

Actually... you’re totally right. 

Interesting article relevant to this kind of intelligence that I read recently