Sequel Showdown #3: Metroid

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

Just now, TDIRunner said:

Damn you.  You made me realize there is ONE thing about Super Metroid I would change.  I would make the wall jumping easier.  I'm not a good wall jumper, so that would be nice.  However, I'm not interested in the other moves.  I don't need wall grabbing or ball-dash.  

Admittedly, in Super Metroid the ball-dash is less critical, though there are a couple of places where you potentially need it.

And yes, the wall jump in AM2R is a joy to use, versus the "aw, fuck, not again" frustration of using it in Super Metroid.

[TDIRunner | 2,735]

Just now, arch_8ngel said:

And yes, the wall jump in AM2R is a joy to use, versus the "aw, fuck, not again" frustration of using it in Super Metroid.

Plus, watching speed runners do it flawlessly over and over again just makes me feel bad.  

[spacepup | 2,404]

I chose the uninteresting and unsurprising answer which is Super Metroid, but honestly, this was a bit tough for me, because I have such a fondness and nostalgia for the original, one of my favorite NES games.  I just feel like Super Metroid was a great sequel and a great representation of what "metroid" is about.

I also VERY much loved the Metroid Prime series, and thought Metroid Prime was a really well-done 2d-->3d transition, that was super fun, and quite impressive to me back when it came out.  

This thread makes me BEYOND excited for Metroid Prime 4, if/when that ever comes out!

[Sumez | 2,950]

23 minutes ago, TDIRunner said:

Damn you.  You made me realize there is ONE thing about Super Metroid I would change.  I would make the wall jumping easier.  I'm not a good wall jumper, so that would be nice.  However, I'm not interested in the other moves.  I don't need wall grabbing or ball-dash.  

I think the wall jump works perfectly in Super Metroid because it's not super intuitive to perform. It's a hidden technique that you don't need to beat the game. And once you learn it, you can break the game wide open in a magnificent manner that wouldn't work well with someone's first blind playthrough.
I think it's still pretty easy to pull off once you understand how it works. I can do it almost completely consistently, and if you're having trouble with it I think it's most likely because you haven't had it explained well enough. You basically need a quick 1-2 rhythm of hitting the direction away from the wall and then pushing the jump button immediately after.

Requiring the wall jump to escape from the pit where it is taught to you was a mistake, however.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Sumez

[TDIRunner | 2,735]

3 minutes ago, Sumez said:

I think the wall jump works perfectly in Super Metroid because it's not super intuitive to perform. It's a hidden technique that you don't need to beat the game. And once you learn it, you can break the game wide open in a magnificent manner that wouldn't work well with someone's first blind playthrough.
I think it's still pretty easy to pull off once you understand how it works. I can do it almost completely consistently, and if you're having trouble with it I think it's most likely because you haven't had it explained well enough. You basically need a quick 1-2 rhythm of hitting the direction away from the wall and then pushing the jump button immediately after.

Requiring the wall jump to escape from the pit where it is taught to you was a mistake, however.

I don't disagree with that at all.  It should be difficult to learn, but if I haven't mastered it by now, it's not going to happen.  However, my inability to wall jump consistently doesn't take anything away from the gameplay for me.  However, it does make that pit frustrating whenever I'm doing a 100% run.  

Also, as a young kid I remember thinking that I had soft locked the game when I fell in that pit and use the save station that some demon crazed game developer decided to put there.  That whole area is one big troll.  But even with that, I still consider Super Metroid to be as close to a perfect game as just about anything I've ever played.  

[Br81zad | 629]

2 hours ago, TDIRunner said:

I don't disagree with that at all.  It should be difficult to learn, but if I haven't mastered it by now, it's not going to happen.  However, my inability to wall jump consistently doesn't take anything away from the gameplay for me.  However, it does make that pit frustrating whenever I'm doing a 100% run.  

Also, as a young kid I remember thinking that I had soft locked the game when I fell in that pit and use the save station that some demon crazed game developer decided to put there.  That whole area is one big troll.  But even with that, I still consider Super Metroid to be as close to a perfect game as just about anything I've ever played.  

I feel your pain, and agree with you about that area of the map. I never really learned the technique as a kid, I just used the series of ledges on the side to escape the pit. Later in life, I started trying out the various hacks for Super Metroid (just because I was hungry for more content with that game), and the wall jump is something that was commonly built into level designs. In that way it was basically an entry barrier to be overcome. I'm by no means an expert at it now, but I can do it pretty consistently if I need to.

[Sumez | 2,950]

Yeah, the Super Metroid walljump is a really ingenious mechanic in the sense that when you don't know about it, pulling it off feels nearly impossible, but once you get it down it's very rare to fail it.

I'm a big fan of secret mechanics like that in video games, and they definitely shouldn't be something you could just pick up on without knowing they are there. But I can't really think of any other games that do it as well as Super Metroid.

And of course in that context, I would like to reiterate - yeah, that area of the map shouldn't have been there. I like that the game tries to teach you the wall jump in an incredibly subtle manner, but they could have done that without trapping you, and it would honestly have remained even more obscure.

[Br81zad | 629]

3 hours ago, Sumez said:

Yeah, the Super Metroid walljump is a really ingenious mechanic in the sense that when you don't know about it, pulling it off feels nearly impossible, but once you get it down it's very rare to fail it.

I'm a big fan of secret mechanics like that in video games, and they definitely shouldn't be something you could just pick up on without knowing they are there. But I can't really think of any other games that do it as well as Super Metroid.

And of course in that context, I would like to reiterate - yeah, that area of the map shouldn't have been there. I like that the game tries to teach you the wall jump in an incredibly subtle manner, but they could have done that without trapping you, and it would honestly have remained even more obscure.

I agree, if I were to advise the designers today, I'd suggest an optional route for the player to use the wall jump in order to reach an energy tank. Completionists would be compelled to learn the mechanic, and casuals would be able to advance and finish the game without it (and without feeling trapped by the map).

Worth saying though, that the game is near perfect, and the few gripes (like this one) aren't really that big of an issue.

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

3 minutes ago, Br81zad said:

I agree, if I were to advise the designers today, I'd suggest an optional route for the player to use the wall jump in order to reach an energy tank. Completionists would be compelled to learn the mechanic, and casuals would be able to advance and finish the game without it (and without feeling trapped by the map).

Worth saying though, that the game is near perfect, and the few gripes (like this one) aren't really that big of an issue.

I think TDIRunner and I are both pretty damn far from "casuals", both with respect to classic gaming AND with respect to 2D Metroid.

I used to agree that Super Metroid was pretty close to a perfect implementation until I played through AM2R and realized how relatively "clunky" the controls felt.  I don't recall if you've said you've played through AM2R, or not, but I would be interested to hear your opinion on how the controls of that game aren't smoother and or don't simply "feel better".

 

[Br81zad | 629]

11 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

I think TDIRunner and I are both pretty damn far from "casuals", both with respect to classic gaming AND with respect to 2D Metroid.

I used to agree that Super Metroid was pretty close to a perfect implementation until I played through AM2R and realized how relatively "clunky" the controls felt.  I don't recall if you've said you've played through AM2R, or not, but I would be interested to hear your opinion on how the controls of that game aren't smoother and or don't simply "feel better".

 

Oh, they're definitely better. I'm not sure if the additional mechanics of AM2R could feasibly be incorporated on the SNES or not, but I didn't feel the need to qualify it in my statement as "near perfect for a SNES game" lol

Also, if you read back a couple post ago, I also said I didn't bother to learn the wall jump in the pit either. I didn't get it down until I started playing hacks. The casual comment wasn't meant as a slight. I simply meant a better map design would be to offer a positive incentive for learning it rather than holding the player hostage until they do.

 

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

54 minutes ago, Br81zad said:

Oh, they're definitely better. I'm not sure if the additional mechanics of AM2R could feasibly be incorporated on the SNES or not, but I didn't feel the need to qualify it in my statement as "near perfect for a SNES game" lol

Also, if you read back a couple post ago, I also said I didn't bother to learn the wall jump in the pit either. I didn't get it down until I started playing hacks. The casual comment wasn't meant as a slight. I simply meant a better map design would be to offer a positive incentive for learning it rather than holding the player hostage until they do.

 

Control-wise, I don't think there was anything done in AM2R that couldn't be equivalently supported on the SNES, though I won't claim to know how easy or hard it is to tune input timing flexibility on the SNES.

[TDIRunner | 2,735]

3 hours ago, Br81zad said:

I simply meant a better map design would be to offer a positive incentive for learning it rather than holding the player hostage until they do.

 

That's the best description of that area yet.  

[DarkTone | 984]

Super Metroid. Easily.