Mall Brawl NES - Limited Run Support

[a3quit4s | 4,142]

@KHAN Games this is my board if you want to compare it to yours to see if there is a difference in the hardware:

 

 

edit: the middle screw on the cart is just for show as it doesn’t screw in and the circuit board is too big for the shell. I think the circuit board was designed backwards as well because when I open another NES cart by lifting off the back the eprom chips face forward and the side with no chips faces me. When I open Jay and Silent bob from the back the chips are facing me. 

Edited August 3, 2020 by a3quit4s

[KHAN Games | 149]

Unfortunately I don't have a security bit to open mine to compare, sorry.

And for the record, I think the whole "There was no mention whatsoever from LRG that this game wouldn’t work" is a shitty take. They shouldn't need to specify whether a game will work on a third party hardware solution, no matter how prevalent it is in the community.

Now I will agree that since it works on *some* AVS systems it deserves to work on *all* AVS systems, and that lends itself to it being a defective cartridge, but pushing back on a company for not advertising every system a game may or may not work on is not a good look.

[WaverBoy | 20]

39 minutes ago, KHAN Games said:

Unfortunately I don't have a security bit to open mine to compare, sorry.

And for the record, I think the whole "There was no mention whatsoever from LRG that this game wouldn’t work" is a shitty take. They shouldn't need to specify whether a game will work on a third party hardware solution, no matter how prevalent it is in the community.

Now I will agree that since it works on *some* AVS systems it deserves to work on *all* AVS systems, and that lends itself to it being a defective cartridge, but pushing back on a company for not advertising every system a game may or may not work on is not a good look.

I’m sorry I was probably a bit over the top there, but for the record, it also isn’t a good look for their customer service rep to continue to tell me to pound sand after another customer service rep told her customer “hey, no problem, it was tested on an AVS and many other NES variants, it should have worked, so you’re now on the list for a replacement cart.” Not only did she tell me to pound sand, she told me she’d be happy to speak to the other rep about it as well (I’m glad somebody’s happy) which would presumably result in the other gentleman (and any other AVS user that was told they were on the replacement list) also not getting their replacement cart.

The game was confirmed to a customer by a company rep to have been tested on an AVS and that it worked and should work, and that they would send that customer a replacement cart. Then another company rep comes along and soils and completely negates the great customer service of the first rep. What should have obviously happened is, when presented with my Exhibit A, the second rep should have told me “I’m sorry, I was mistaken, it appears we can help you after all; I have added you to the same list that the other customer is on and we hope to have your replacement cart to you within such and such a time.” Customer service 101.

Yeah, no, not a good look at all. 

Edited August 3, 2020 by WaverBoy

[KHAN Games | 149]

I agree that they need to be consistent with how they're handling the responses, but you straight up demanding a replacement and refusing her response is super entitled. As someone who sells my own games, I want to help people who act the way you're acting WAY less. Honestly if someone responded to me the way you responded to her, I'd refund your money and not even take the time to reply to you again.

Being polite, acknowledging the difference between reps, and asking for clarification in their process would have been a better route. But you do you.

Sorry for coming down on you. I just feel responsible for the community to some degree. With this now being one of the most prevalent NES homebrew carts out there, how people interact with the company releasing it says a lot about us as a community and as consumers. After this debacle they may think twice about releasing more homebrews in the future.

[a3quit4s | 4,142]

@WaverBoy @KHAN Games

Waverboy did you buy the regular edition or the premium edition of the game? The premium edition is the one I bought and the product page makes it seem like different boards were used for the premium. It may also be why we have received different answers. The regular NES edition page just says compatible with original NES hardware and the premium edition page is sort of ambiguous. 
 

https://limitedrungames.com/products/jay-and-silent-bob-mall-brawl-nes-premium-edition

https://limitedrungames.com/products/jay-and-silent-bob-mall-brawl-nes
 

If you bought the premium edition as well I’d say that’s bad on LRG for not having process in place. 

[WaverBoy | 20]

1 hour ago, KHAN Games said:

I agree that they need to be consistent with how they're handling the responses, but you straight up demanding a replacement and refusing her response is super entitled. As someone who sells my own games, I want to help people who act the way you're acting WAY less. Honestly if someone responded to me the way you responded to her, I'd refund your money and not even take the time to reply to you again.

Being polite, acknowledging the difference between reps, and asking for clarification in their process would have been a better route. But you do you.

Sorry for coming down on you. I just feel responsible for the community to some degree. With this now being one of the most prevalent NES homebrew carts out there, how people interact with the company releasing it says a lot about us as a community and as consumers. After this debacle they may think twice about releasing more homebrews in the future.

I don’t agree at all that my direct responses to her were impolite or entitled. Firm, yes, and rightfully so considering that I was being treated differently than another customer who was told they’d get a replacement because the game was tested on an AVS and it should work on it, and after I politely but firmly informed her of that and gave her the ticket number reference, she immediately said too bad and she’d be happy to effectively shut down the replacement cart for the other fellow too while she was at it. Firm, assertive, but not impolite or entitled IMO except that I’m definitely entitled to a working cart for my $50+. My venting here is a bit less measured, granted. I don’t enjoy wasting $50+ when I would have zero reason to think that this cart wouldn’t work on an AVS. We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. If there’s a debacle, it’s their doing, not mine; perhaps instead of thinking twice about making homebrews in future, they can think about how they can improve their customer service.

Edited August 4, 2020 by WaverBoy

[Richardhead | 2,874]

2 minutes ago, WaverBoy said:

I don’t agree at all that my direct responses to her were impolite or entitled. Firm, yes, especially considering that I was being treated differently than another customer who was told they’d get a replacement, and after I politely but firmly informed her of that and gave her the ticket number reference, she immediately said too bad and she’d be happy to effectively shut down the replacement cart for the other fellow too while she was at it. Firm, assertive, but not impolite or entitled IMO except that I’m definitely entitled to a working cart for my $50+. My venting here is a bit less measured, granted. I don’t enjoy wasting $50+ when I would have zero reason to think that this cart wouldn’t work on an AVS. We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. If there’s a debacle, it’s their doing, not mine; perhaps instead of thinking twice about making homebrews in future, they can think about how they can improve their customer service.

Sooooo..... you selling then? I’d probably be interested... 

[WaverBoy | 20]

44 minutes ago, a3quit4s said:

@WaverBoy @KHAN Games

Waverboy did you buy the regular edition or the premium edition of the game? The premium edition is the one I bought and the product page makes it seem like different boards were used for the premium. It may also be why we have received different answers. The regular NES edition page just says compatible with original NES hardware and the premium edition page is sort of ambiguous. 
 

https://limitedrungames.com/products/jay-and-silent-bob-mall-brawl-nes-premium-edition

https://limitedrungames.com/products/jay-and-silent-bob-mall-brawl-nes
 

If you bought the premium edition as well I’d say that’s bad on LRG for not having process in place. 

I bought the standard edition because that was the only one available at the time I bought it. Did they really use two different boards? One that works (or should work) fine on an AVS and another that’s gimped? That makes no sense to me at all...?

[WaverBoy | 20]

4 hours ago, Richardhead said:

Sooooo..... you selling then? I’d probably be interested... 

I might be depending on how this turns out — if I do you’ve got first dibs

[Richardhead | 2,874]

10 minutes ago, WaverBoy said:

I might be depending on how this turns out — if I do you’ve got first dibs

Thanks buddy!

[a3quit4s | 4,142]

1 hour ago, Richardhead said:

Thanks buddy!

If they replace mine you can have the one that works on my top loader, it’ll probably work on the toaster to just not AVS. I don’t think they will have me send mine back. 

[WaverBoy | 20]

56 minutes ago, a3quit4s said:

If they replace mine you can have the one that works on my top loader, it’ll probably work on the toaster to just not AVS. I don’t think they will have me send mine back. 

I really hope they still give you your replacement despite what my CS rep said — after all, it was promised to you by a CS rep, and if they do it for you, then they can jolly well do it for me, eh what? Fingers crossed...

[Dr. Morbis | 2,099]

9 hours ago, KHAN Games said:

Sorry for coming down on you. I just feel responsible for the community to some degree. With this now being one of the most prevalent NES homebrew carts out there, how people interact with the company releasing it says a lot about us as a community and as consumers. After this debacle they may think twice about releasing more homebrews in the future.

This would be my concern as well.  I'm not a homebrewer, but it certainly seems daunting for a company to have to make sure their "Nintendo game" works on a plethora of third party systems in addition to the NES.  If it's a NES game, surely working on an actual NES is enough?!?  I understand the AVS is a top-notch product made by bunnyboy, but come on, there is no such thing as a one-to-one identical system compatible with the NES.  Only a NES is ONE HUNDRED PERCENT COMPATIBLE with a NES!  Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't understand electronics.  Not even a toploader is 100% compatible, and that thing's made by Nintendo themselves...

[a3quit4s | 4,142]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

This would be my concern as well.  I'm not a homebrewer, but it certainly seems daunting for a company to have to make sure their "Nintendo game" works on a plethora of third party systems in addition to the NES.  If it's a NES game, surely working on an actual NES is enough?!?  I understand the AVS is a top-notch product made by bunnyboy, but come on, there is no such thing as a one-to-one identical system compatible with the NES.  Only a NES is ONE HUNDRED PERCENT COMPATIBLE with a NES!  Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't understand electronics.  Not even a toploader is 100% compatible, and that thing's made by Nintendo themselves...

I just want to clarify that I opened my support ticket not knowing if the game was playable by AVS, I simply reported it was glitching out. It was the LRG rep who said they test on AVS and it should work and offered the replacement. If she had told me what Waverboys rep had told me, I would have said OK and it would have ended there. I don’t blame waverboy at all for seeing how his case went compared to mine and wanting a better explanation. As a consumer you are entitled to at least a decent reason why the game you bought isn’t working on a system that plays 650+ other NES games.

[WaverBoy | 20]

55 minutes ago, a3quit4s said:

I just want to clarify that I opened my support ticket not knowing if the game was playable by AVS, I simply reported it was glitching out. It was the LRG rep who said they test on AVS and it should work and offered the replacement. If she had told me what Waverboys rep had told me, I would have said OK and it would have ended there. I don’t blame waverboy at all for seeing how his case went compared to mine and wanting a better explanation. As a consumer you are entitled to at least a decent reason why the game you bought isn’t working on a system that plays 650+ other NES games.

Thank you for understanding my point sir; that’s it precisely. Here’s hoping it gets sorted satisfactorily for both of us.

[toma | 71]

I know that coming from me might sound biased because of my relationship with Limited Run, but you do need to remember that they are a relatively small business. They've got a good-sized following and they're bigger than the average NES homebrewer, but in the gaming world they are still quite small. The chances of them having a standardized response for a situation that has happened to (by my count) three confirmed people is pretty low. I guarantee that they are just hearing about this at the same time as everyone else and are probably trying to figure out what is causing the problem to avoid this sort of thing happening with another game in the future.

I know that Limited Run generally wants people to be happy with what they get, but they also have a well-known problem with scalpers and scammers. My guess is that she was probably just trying to make sure that you weren't trying to scam a free cart out of them before instantly sending out a replacement. If she asked you to try on a stock NES console and to send some evidence of the problem, instead of coming back with a "Yeah, no. That’s not happening" attitude, something like "Sorry, I don't have access to an original NES, but here's some more evidence of the problem on my AVS" and attaching some screenshots or video of the game glitching at its worst could have been helpful. When you start throwing in accusatory stuff about testing and not guaranteeing which systems it will work on, it starts things out on the wrong foot and you're less likely to get the response you want. I know that "the customer is always right" or whatever, but as a customer there are also better ways to handle a situation that can help you get what you want. 

I genuinely hope that you get a new, working cart and things work out for you. In fact, if they do come back saying that they can't help you, feel free to dm me before unloading your cart and I will see if there is anything I can personally do to fix you up.

[WaverBoy | 20]

7 hours ago, toma said:

I know that coming from me might sound biased because of my relationship with Limited Run, but you do need to remember that they are a relatively small business. They've got a good-sized following and they're bigger than the average NES homebrewer, but in the gaming world they are still quite small. The chances of them having a standardized response for a situation that has happened to (by my count) three confirmed people is pretty low. I guarantee that they are just hearing about this at the same time as everyone else and are probably trying to figure out what is causing the problem to avoid this sort of thing happening with another game in the future.

I know that Limited Run generally wants people to be happy with what they get, but they also have a well-known problem with scalpers and scammers. My guess is that she was probably just trying to make sure that you weren't trying to scam a free cart out of them before instantly sending out a replacement. If she asked you to try on a stock NES console and to send some evidence of the problem, instead of coming back with a "Yeah, no. That’s not happening" attitude, something like "Sorry, I don't have access to an original NES, but here's some more evidence of the problem on my AVS" and attaching some screenshots or video of the game glitching at its worst could have been helpful. When you start throwing in accusatory stuff about testing and not guaranteeing which systems it will work on, it starts things out on the wrong foot and you're less likely to get the response you want. I know that "the customer is always right" or whatever, but as a customer there are also better ways to handle a situation that can help you get what you want. 

I genuinely hope that you get a new, working cart and things work out for you. In fact, if they do come back saying that they can't help you, feel free to dm me before unloading your cart and I will see if there is anything I can personally do to fix you up.

Please understand that my responses to the CS rep didn’t contain the words “yeah that’s not happening” or other such heavily attitude-laden phrases — I was trying to be polite but firm in my responses, as I used lots of “please” and threw in “please help me and I’ll extol the customer service of LRG all over the place” etc. etc. — I get that they’re not a huge company, and I also get that they obviously didn’t have a coordinated response ready, but the rep just instantly knocked down what I was saying, and then continued to do so after I had told her that another CS rep had told another customer that it would be no problem, it was tested on an AVS and should work so they’d put him on the list for a replacement. Instead of (apparently) just automatically assuming I was trying to scam a cart, at the very least she could have said something like, “Oh, I see, well let me look into this and see what I can do and I’ll get back to you”, which would have worked wonders. Instead, it’s effectively “Still, no dice, and I’ll be happy to talk to the other rep about that and make sure the other guy doesn’t get his either”. Again, customer service 101. It’s just not my fault that a different company rep assured another customer with the exact same issue as me that they’d get a replacement cart because it was tested on an AVS and should work; I really don’t think I was being over-the-top unreasonable in my responses considering her responses after I told her about the other customer being put on a replacement cart list due to the exact same issue I was having and could I please be put on the same list, an entirely reasonable request. I really wasn’t trying to be an asshole, as much as it apparently might seem like it; I was just trying to be insistent. You are absolutely right however, I should have followed up “I no longer have original hardware” with “but here’s a video example of what it’s doing on my AVS”. It’s just that she tried to shut me down so quickly because of the AVS factor that I didn’t think it would be worth it. I wasn’t expecting to be a suspected scammer/scalper by default.

I do thank you profusely for your kind offer of help if they decide against sending me a replacement, as well as the tone of your reply to me here; both are most appreciated.
 

Edited August 5, 2020 by WaverBoy

[WaverBoy | 20]

My latest response to Sarah, after some much needed pausing and reflecting:

Good morning Sarah,
I have been informed by others in the homebrew community that your company has unfortunately been the victim of scalpers trying to scam extra copies of games in the past to make a fast resale buck. I‘m very sorry to hear about that, and I swear, I’m not trying to scam an extra copy of the cart for scalping purposes—I will absolutely send back the cart I received in exchange for a replacement cart that has been tested on an AVS to make sure it works—I don’t mean to come across as a whiny entitled jerk and am profoundly sorry if I did — it’s just that another customer that’s having the same exact issue as me was already promised a replacement cart by a company CS rep and was told by that rep that the game was tested on an AVS and should work, hence the replacement, and then, after providing you with that information along with the ticket number for your reference, to immediately hear back from you that regardless of that, there’s nothing you can do for me unless I replicate the problem on original hardware, and you’ll talk to the other rep about the issue, presumably to make sure the other fellow doesn’t get his replacement either...well I’m sure you can see how that might come across to me. I’m more than happy to provide you with video evidence of the glitch on my AVS and have attached a video of the glitch to this message, and as I said above I’m absolutely willing to ship the cart back to you if I can get a replacement that works. I’ll even pay for the shipping if need be. I remain hopeful that we can get this resolved satisfactorily.

Sincerely,

Jeffrey Nelson

[JamesRobot | 5,846]

AVS 1.3beta5 and standard release J & SB.  (Haven't updated the firmware in a minute.) 

I get a game freezing glitch in level 1 right at the Truth or Date stage just as I'm fighting the Easter Bunny.  The first night I played on the AVS and it glitched just for a moment and went past.  Played again today to test and 3 times in a row the game completely froze with some garbled graphics in the HUD.

I can confirm it works on my toaster with no issue at all.  Kind of unfortunate but it appears to be an AVS issue.  

Here's pictures of the board.  At a cursory glance it appears to be the same as @a3quit4s' limited board.

[WaverBoy | 20]

Thank you for sharing your experience. This exact thing happened to me as well, in the rare instance I could get past the initial glitch. I’m starting to get a sinking feeling that the carts are all like that (and that those who haven’t seen glitches yet on their AVS have just been lucky so far) and that AVS-exclusive owners will be SOL because obviously a redo of the cart run wouldn’t be practical or feasible and I doubt there will ever be another run of this special game — but I will continue to hold out hope until the bitter end

This is a fantastic game by all accounts and by the impression I get from being able to play even just a little.

Edited August 5, 2020 by WaverBoy

[WaverBoy | 20]

Apologies in advance to the mods for another post on the subject in this thread, but it’s great news this time — Sarah of LRG finally responded to my last message:

“Hi Jeffrey Nelson,

I hope you're having a good afternoon!
My apologies for the delay, I had to verify that we could proceed without requiring tests on original hardware since use of 3rd party hardware was not mentioned anywhere in the listing.

We have a couple of options.
1. We can put in a replacement request so that we can process an exchange.
2. We can process a return for a full refund.

Just let me know how you would like to proceed.“

My response:

“Hi Sarah, Thank you SO MUCH for your reply! Yes indeed I would love to exchange for a working cart instead of a refund, as this looks like one of the best games ever made for the NES and I just gotta play it — would someone at LRG be able to test it on an AVS and make sure it works before it gets sent out, just to make sure, so we don’t waste your time and postage? And, again, I apologize for coming across so harshly  .”

Her response:

”No worries at all! Normally for troubleshooting we'd refer folks to Nintendo or Sony but with retro titles that's not really an option. Our customer support staff is working remote, so we can't directly test it before shipping, but I do have that requested. As soon as I've heard back I'll send you an update so that we can get your exchange processed!”

Fingers crossed that they can find a Mall Brawl cart for me that works on an AVS, and many thanks to LRG for taking care of this customer. And again, apologies for posting this in this thread but I wanted to provide a note of closure as well as extol the customer service of LRG, especially since I previously denigrated it.

Edited August 13, 2020 by WaverBoy

[Dr. Morbis | 2,099]

On 8/13/2020 at 9:05 AM, WaverBoy said:

Fingers crossed that they can find a Mall Brawl cart for me that works on an AVS....

Huh?  How many print runs are there for this thing?  I mean, I appreciate how you're handling this, but what makes you think that there is a different cart out there that will work 100% with your AVS?  Either they ALL will work with the AVS 100% or they ALL will not, no?  If there are multiple print runs of this game, then feel free to ignore my post entirely, but if they've only done a single print run, then why are you asking for an exchange?  It seems like your options are to get an NES or get a refund at this point...

[a3quit4s | 4,142]

35 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Huh?  How many print runs are there for this thing?  I mean, I appreciate how you're handling this, but what makes you think that there is a different cart out there that will work 100% with your AVS?  Either they ALL will work with the AVS 100% or they ALL will not, no?  If there are multiple print runs of this game, then feel free to ignore my post entirely, but if they've only done a single print run, then why are you asking for an exchange?  It seems like your options are to get an NES or get a refund at this point...

The LRG website makes it seem like the premium and standard edition have different boards, however, waverboy and I have a different edition and both seem to not work on AVS. 

[Ted Playa | 17]

I also received a faulty game. I've been so excited and waited so long for this game, it's heartbreaking. I lost my smile.

I suspect that LRG is looking to explore new forms of income as Homebrews since games are clearly deadheading towards digital only.

It's extremely disappointing that this game was advertised nearly finished and could be preordered a year ago and customers were largely left in the dark about this game only to receive a none functioning product nearly a year later. It is unacceptable for a multi million dollar company to do this. I get that they might be new to the homebrew scene but... if a single person in there moms basement can produce a fully functioning homebrew game, provide scene shots updates on twitter, create a kickstarter and produce a game from nothing for NES fans to play. There is no reason a company with all the resources can't.

Hopefully LRG makes this right for everyone. To hear that people here are getting nickle and dimed over what version of the NES they are playing it on is BS. 

[WaverBoy | 20]

20 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Huh?  How many print runs are there for this thing?  I mean, I appreciate how you're handling this, but what makes you think that there is a different cart out there that will work 100% with your AVS?  Either they ALL will work with the AVS 100% or they ALL will not, no?  If there are multiple print runs of this game, then feel free to ignore my post entirely, but if they've only done a single print run, then why are you asking for an exchange?  It seems like your options are to get an NES or get a refund at this point...

Your assertion isn’t true; you must not have noticed reports that some Mall Brawl carts work just fine on the AVS and some don’t; there are also reports of Mall Brawl carts not working on the OG NES. Something went awry somewhere.

Edited August 16, 2020 by WaverBoy