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Mall Brawl NES - Limited Run Support


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Just chiming in to say I'm one of the unlucky (hopefully few) who has a defective cart that doesn't work on the AVS. I discovered this when I tried to live stream it, so I have video of what was going on if anyone is curious about what we're experiencing. I too have filed a ticket with LRG, so we'll see what they say! I did discover that this works on my Gamerz Tek 8-Bit Boy HD, so it would be a shame if it works fine on a cheap clone console but not the AVS...

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The game looks fun. Is it all sold out or is it still available for purchase? If someone has one of the defective ones that they don't want, and the game is sold out, I'd likely be interested in taking it off someone.

Now onto my thoughts on the issues being discussed here:

As much as I hate to say it, I agree 100% with @KHAN Games , and I also agree with @Dr. Morbis . It is most definitely a consumer issue rather than a company issue, and it reminds me a lot of the Columbus Circle Famicom music carts situation.

I personally own over 100 different Famiclones, as well as multiple versions and renditions of official, original hardware. Some of the machines have great compatibility, some don't, but to take it a step further:

I also own probably three or four thousand different Famicom and Famiclone cartridges. Some are official carts, some are bootlegs, some are unlicensed originals (essentially homebrew 30 years ago...), Some are modern homebrew / indie. Again, while the lions share of my software works on the vast majority of my hardware, there are cases where some items don't run on some machines. If this happens, I'll just run it on something else.

An interesting example would be the early unlicensed game Duck, from Bit Corp. It allegedly glitches on real hardware and clones, after some point, though some people speculate that the game runs properly on the early clone machines that Bit Corp designed themselves. Likely, in this case the glitches arose from Bit Corp reverse engineering real hardware and also then developing original software, all without official dev kits; obviously something was mis-analyzed, iirc Codemasters did the same thing with their games.

What I am getting at is unofficial hardware, whether it be the cheapest clone or these designer machines like AVS, or even a high-quality Taiwanense clone from Micro Genius, they are all at the end of the day just clones, differing levels of quality but still all just clones.

Similarly, at the end of the day, all modern nes / Famicom indie games, homebrew games, unlicensed originals from back in the day, multicarts, bootlegs , etc - they are ALL unauthorised software, no matter which people hold in higher regards.

So it is unreasonable to expect the compatibility of unauthorised software on unauthorised machines. If my PAL Subor computer Famiclone with adaptor can't run this game, is the problem mine or is it the company that made the game? My machine has good compatibility, why shouldn't this one run? But it's an unreasonable and unfeasible request from my part.

Even unlicensed non-clone developers, like American Video Entertainment, Camerica / Codemasters, and Color Dreams, struggled to get their games running on one hardware machine...

The only time I'd feel differently is if the game was advertised specifically as being "AVS Compatible" or "Golden Leopard" compatible or something like that, otherwise I think they did absolutely nothing wrong, if they advertised it as running on the original NES, and it does just that. Remember guys, AVS is just a clone.

 

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1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

The game looks fun. Is it all sold out or is it still available for purchase? If someone has one of the defective ones that they don't want, and the game is sold out, I'd likely be interested in taking it off someone.

Now onto my thoughts on the issues being discussed here:

As much as I hate to say it, I agree 100% with @KHAN Games , and I also agree with @Dr. Morbis . It is most definitely a consumer issue rather than a company issue, and it reminds me a lot of the Columbus Circle Famicom music carts situation.

I personally own over 100 different Famiclones, as well as multiple versions and renditions of official, original hardware. Some of the machines have great compatibility, some don't, but to take it a step further:

I also own probably three or four thousand different Famicom and Famiclone cartridges. Some are official carts, some are bootlegs, some are unlicensed originals (essentially homebrew 30 years ago...), Some are modern homebrew / indie. Again, while the lions share of my software works on the vast majority of my hardware, there are cases where some items don't run on some machines. If this happens, I'll just run it on something else.

An interesting example would be the early unlicensed game Duck, from Bit Corp. It allegedly glitches on real hardware and clones, after some point, though some people speculate that the game runs properly on the early clone machines that Bit Corp designed themselves. Likely, in this case the glitches arose from Bit Corp reverse engineering real hardware and also then developing original software, all without official dev kits; obviously something was mis-analyzed, iirc Codemasters did the same thing with their games.

What I am getting at is unofficial hardware, whether it be the cheapest clone or these designer machines like AVS, or even a high-quality Taiwanense clone from Micro Genius, they are all at the end of the day just clones, differing levels of quality but still all just clones.

Similarly, at the end of the day, all modern nes / Famicom indie games, homebrew games, unlicensed originals from back in the day, multicarts, bootlegs , etc - they are ALL unauthorised software, no matter which people hold in higher regards.

So it is unreasonable to expect the compatibility of unauthorised software on unauthorised machines. If my PAL Subor computer Famiclone with adaptor can't run this game, is the problem mine or is it the company that made the game? My machine has good compatibility, why shouldn't this one run? But it's an unreasonable and unfeasible request from my part.

Even unlicensed non-clone developers, like American Video Entertainment, Camerica / Codemasters, and Color Dreams, struggled to get their games running on one hardware machine...

The only time I'd feel differently is if the game was advertised specifically as being "AVS Compatible" or "Golden Leopard" compatible or something like that, otherwise I think they did absolutely nothing wrong, if they advertised it as running on the original NES, and it does just that. Remember guys, AVS is just a clone.

 

Your argument would be sound, were it not for the fact that some MB carts work fine on the AVS, and some don’t; likewise, some MB carts work fine on the OG NES, and some don’t. So, no, there’s definitely a legit issue here, and thankfully LRG agrees and has offered to send a tested replacement cart to me in exchange for the defective cart.

Edited by WaverBoy
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10 minutes ago, WaverBoy said:

Your argument would be sound, were it not for the fact that some MB carts work fine on the AVS, and some don’t; likewise, some MB carts work fine on the OG NES, and some don’t. So, no, there’s definitely a legit issue here, and thankfully LRG agrees and has offered to send a tested replacement cart to me in exchange for the defective cart.

Strongly disagree. Companies should be able to make revisions to their software design if seen fit. If it's not advertised to operate / be compatible with a glorified clone machine, yet it is advertised (and does run) on legit hardware, then I feel the company did what they were required to do.

I mean, with the AVS, Brian released different firmware updates, who even knows if he made changes to the AVS physical hardware over the course big time . So I just don't think it's a feasible request at all.

With that said, if they streamed the game using an AVS or whatever they did, then I'd agree that without going out and explicitly stating it, there was a bit of implied compatability (I haven't seen the advertisement or video or whatever, anyone have a link?) , and if the game wasn't compatible after said presentation, something should have been mentioned.

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53 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Strongly disagree. Companies should be able to make revisions to their software design if seen fit. If it's not advertised to operate / be compatible with a glorified clone machine, yet it is advertised (and does run) on legit hardware, then I feel the company did what they were required to do.

I mean, with the AVS, Brian released different firmware updates, who even knows if he made changes to the AVS physical hardware over the course big time . So I just don't think it's a feasible request at all.

With that said, if they streamed the game using an AVS or whatever they did, then I'd agree that without going out and explicitly stating it, there was a bit of implied compatability (I haven't seen the advertisement or video or whatever, anyone have a link?) , and if the game wasn't compatible after said presentation, something should have been mentioned.

Please re-read my last post. You missed the bit where some carts work on an AVS, some don’t, and some don’t even work on an actual NES even, you know, the system it was advertised to work on. You are incorrect. There is a legit issue, and LRG agrees, so your disagreement matters not to me.

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19 minutes ago, WaverBoy said:

Please re-read my last post. You missed the bit where some carts work on an AVS, some don’t, and some don’t even work on an actual NES even, you know, the system it was advertised to work on. You are incorrect. There is a legit issue, and LRG agrees, so your disagreement matters not to me.

The incidents listed on this page ALL refer to the machine not working on AVS. 

If you read my last post, you'd see that even with AVS, there could be minor hardware revisions between machines, which could explain why it might work on some AVS machines and not others, that doesn't even take firmware versions into account.

I think the original Famicom had what, at least seven different revisions? I even have four or five ending man clones that were revised in a course of perhaps one or two years. So working on some AVS and not others doesn't mean it's a software problem, absolutely a poor and misleading conclusion to reach.

With that being said: Please point me to the accounts of the cart not working on real NES hardware, as those accounts are not listed in this thread.

 

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2 hours ago, fcgamer said:

The incidents listed on this page ALL refer to the machine not working on AVS. 

If you read my last post, you'd see that even with AVS, there could be minor hardware revisions between machines, which could explain why it might work on some AVS machines and not others, that doesn't even take firmware versions into account.

I think the original Famicom had what, at least seven different revisions? I even have four or five ending man clones that were revised in a course of perhaps one or two years. So working on some AVS and not others doesn't mean it's a software problem, absolutely a poor and misleading conclusion to reach.

With that being said: Please point me to the accounts of the cart not working on real NES hardware, as those accounts are not listed in this thread.

 

LRG support literally told me the cart should work on AVS. 

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41 minutes ago, a3quit4s said:

LRG support literally told me the cart should work on AVS. 

Support also gave varying answers initially regarding exchanging cartridges. I wouldn't necessarily believe that support should be answering this question themselves, unless a standardized answer had been provided to support on this issue.

Here's exactly what the website says, btw. This doesn't make the answer open and shut though.

IMG_20200817_185639.jpg

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1 hour ago, ecmyers said:

I just heard back from LRG on my ticket, and they're going to "put in an inventory request" to see if I can return the nonworking copy for a working one. I should hear back in 2–5 days...

They told me 14 days until my replacement ships 20 days ago so please don’t hold you breath. I reached back out to see if there was an update 4 days ago and have heard nothing yet. I’m doing my best to stay patient I mean I ordered the game in September 2019 and got it at the end of July 2020. Yes I get the pandemic and still this will probably be my last order from LRG.

 

Edited by a3quit4s
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On 8/17/2020 at 3:59 AM, fcgamer said:

Support also gave varying answers initially regarding exchanging cartridges. I wouldn't necessarily believe that support should be answering this question themselves, unless a standardized answer had been provided to support on this issue.

You seem to have selectively ignored the fellow who says it’s similarly glitching on his NES. As there are carts that don’t even work on an NES, it’s a legit issue, full stop.

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3 hours ago, WaverBoy said:

It doesn’t address the issue at all. There are Mall Brawl carts that don’t even work on an NES, which completely invalidates your argument.

Nope, not at all, and honestly the consistant whining and entitlement gets old.

In the other thread I asked if there were more accounts about people with OG hardware being unable to run the game, outside of the (1) incident listed in the other thread. If everyone and his or her uncle can't run it on OG hardware, yeah, it's likely a bad batch of carts. One person, likely it's a hardware issue. Btw, that guy's OG NES isn't even stock, no I wouldn't think that particular mod would have screwed things up, but you never know 😛

To put it into perspective, I own about 15 - 20 legit , original red/white Famicom machines, and I own over 1100 legit Famicom cartridges. Want to bet any money that all of those legit carts will run properly on all of those legit machines? I wouldn't, I'm sure there will be some isolated incidents where some won't, because we are talking about old hardware that also had numerous revisions over its lifetime, on top of all of the unofficial modifications hobbyists then made.

So no, you can't say that it's a large run of bum carts, just because one guy had a problem running it on his (modified) OG machine, and numerous people had problems running it on their fancy dancy Nintendo clones. Rather , we can draw a conclusion from all the people that can get their games to run on OG hardware that it's the clone machines that are causing the game to hiccup, and we'll, we already discussed earlier why it's unfair to expect the game to run properly on clone machines.

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If anyone has one of those "defective" carts and wants to sell it to me, I'll gladly pay full price + 20% + shipping to Taiwan for it. Yup, that's how confident I am that they aren't bum carts., Just send me a pm if interested.

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31 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Nope, not at all, and honestly the consistant whining and entitlement gets old.

In the other thread I asked if there were more accounts about people with OG hardware being unable to run the game, outside of the (1) incident listed in the other thread. If everyone and his or her uncle can't run it on OG hardware, yeah, it's likely a bad batch of carts. One person, likely it's a hardware issue. Btw, that guy's OG NES isn't even stock, no I wouldn't think that particular mod would have screwed things up, but you never know 😛

To put it into perspective, I own about 15 - 20 legit , original red/white Famicom machines, and I own over 1100 legit Famicom cartridges. Want to bet any money that all of those legit carts will run properly on all of those legit machines? I wouldn't, I'm sure there will be some isolated incidents where some won't, because we are talking about old hardware that also had numerous revisions over its lifetime, on top of all of the unofficial modifications hobbyists then made.

So no, you can't say that it's a large run of bum carts, just because one guy had a problem running it on his (modified) OG machine, and numerous people had problems running it on their fancy dancy Nintendo clones. Rather , we can draw a conclusion from all the people that can get their games to run on OG hardware that it's the clone machines that are causing the game to hiccup, and we'll, we already discussed earlier why it's unfair to expect the game to run properly on clone machines.

What’s really getting old is your tiresome nonsensical pontificating. Look at you calling the guy's NES non-stock just because it has a Blinking Light Win on it, which as you should well know plays all NES carts much more reliably on an NES than an old worn-out OEM Nintendo cart connector would, and also much more reliably than your low-grade garden-variety aftermarket connectors that are sold by everyone and his brother on ebay. What if the guy had replaced the non-working worn-out connector in his stock NES (a console notoriously unreliable even back in the day, you might recall) with a garden-variety aftermarket connector instead of that pesky non-stock Blinking Light Win, and the Mall Brawl cart didn't work? Would you say his NES was non-stock and therefore ineligible? Because, by definition, it wouldn't be stock. Yeah, what an idiot that guy was, fixing his NES with a non-stock Blinking Light Win instead of ordering an OEM connector directly from Nintendo, because I'm sure they still have tons left for sale in a warehouse somewhere...

Give me a fucking break. And I'm not saying it was a large run of bum carts, just that some are clearly defective and need to be replaced. Whiny and entitled because I want a working cart for my $55? Nope, sorry bruh. And LRG agrees.

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23 minutes ago, WaverBoy said:

Give me a fucking break. And I'm not saying it was a large run of bum carts, just that some are clearly defective and need to be replaced. Whiny and entitled because I want a working cart for my $55? Nope, sorry bruh. And LRG agrees.

Oh yeah, more whining and entitlement . 

Just because the game won't run on your Nintendo clone, which it wasn't guaranteed to run on, doesn't mean that the carts are defective. Period.

It shouldn't be too hard to understand this , but for whatever reason it seems a hard concept for you to grasp.

I'm not trying to brag about how many machines , clones, carts I have or whatever, rather I'm just stating that I probably have a lot more experience regarding this sort of situation than you do. It's probably your first time, it certainly hasn't been my first rodeo, therefore I know what is and isn't a reasonable expectation to take regarding this. I'm sorry that you don't get it, and can't look at the larger picture.

 

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I’m having the same issue. Glitches on the AVS but works on the top loader. I asked retrousb if they knew of an issue with how the cart was made or if an AVS firmware update would fix it and here is his response: “First of all the board uses 3v logic, which is known to cause issues on some consoles. That is probably not what is going on with the AVS though. With this game it's most likely a bus timing issue on the CPLD. That is probably not fixable with firmware on the AVS's end.  Sorry.”

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12 hours ago, Kilmer144 said:

I’m having the same issue. Glitches on the AVS but works on the top loader. I asked retrousb if they knew of an issue with how the cart was made or if an AVS firmware update would fix it and here is his response: “First of all the board uses 3v logic, which is known to cause issues on some consoles. That is probably not what is going on with the AVS though. With this game it's most likely a bus timing issue on the CPLD. That is probably not fixable with firmware on the AVS's end.  Sorry.”

So if it's using 3v, that's a whole other issue, because LRG specifically stated: "Internal boards for the cartridge are being supplied by Retro-Bit. Each of these premium boards has been rigorously tested and will be the proper 5v standard of official NES boards, so there will be no risk of damaging your hardware!"

If they only used 5v boards for the premium edition, I wish that would have been clearer. There was no reason to suspect the premium edition carts would differ internally from the regular carts, as it seemed the only difference would be the packaging and bonus items.

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13 hours ago, fcgamer said:

Oh yeah, more whining and entitlement . 

Just because the game won't run on your Nintendo clone, which it wasn't guaranteed to run on, doesn't mean that the carts are defective. Period.

It shouldn't be too hard to understand this , but for whatever reason it seems a hard concept for you to grasp.

I'm not trying to brag about how many machines , clones, carts I have or whatever, rather I'm just stating that I probably have a lot more experience regarding this sort of situation than you do. It's probably your first time, it certainly hasn't been my first rodeo, therefore I know what is and isn't a reasonable expectation to take regarding this. I'm sorry that you don't get it, and can't look at the larger picture.

 

I noticed you didn’t address your illogic regarding the NES customer’s “non-stock” NES. I expected as much; you got nothing. And it doesn’t matter how much more nonsense you spew, there’s a legit issue, and I’m sorry you can’t seem to register that. But that doesn’t matter either, because LRG agrees that there’s a legit issue, so keep spewing bruh, it’s cool.

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59 minutes ago, ecmyers said:

So if it's using 3v, that's a whole other issue, because LRG specifically stated: "Internal boards for the cartridge are being supplied by Retro-Bit. Each of these premium boards has been rigorously tested and will be the proper 5v standard of official NES boards, so there will be no risk of damaging your hardware!"

If they only used 5v boards for the premium edition, I wish that would have been clearer. There was no reason to suspect the premium edition carts would differ internally from the regular carts, as it seemed the only difference would be the packaging and bonus items.

Please don't take my word as gospel on this because I don't really know a lot about this sort of thing, but looking at the PCB, there are three LVC16245A bus transceivers along the bottom. From what I'm understanding on Google, the purpose of these is to interface 3.3V components with 5V devices or vice versa. I'd assume that means that the voltage is being properly converted so that 5V isn't being fed directly into 3.3V components.

It definitely seems more in line with a timing issue. The garbage at the top of the screen is kind of telling me that. Mall Brawl switches CHR banks at the sprite 0 hit, so if that isn't happening properly, the top of the screen is going to show garbage like that. There are multiple bank switches happening per frame, so if the timing is being thrown off, it's going to cause a lot of issues. Not that knowing this is going to help anyone right now or not, it's more just me trying to understand what's happening from a distance.

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4 minutes ago, WaverBoy said:

I noticed you didn’t address your illogic regarding the NES customer’s “non-stock” NES. I expected as much; you got nothing. And it doesn’t matter how much more nonsense you spew, there’s a legit issue, and I’m sorry you can’t seem to register that. But that doesn’t matter either, because LRG agrees that there’s a legit issue, so keep spewing bruh, it’s cool.

Hahaha no clue what you're talking about pal, and I'm not your bruh, your bro, or your bra either, so please don't refer to me as such.

You obviously have no understanding that OG hardware can be finicky, if you feel so strongly the way you do, then take the bet with me, we can decide a monetary prize, and you can PayPal me once we see that my legit Famicom collection doesn't run perfectly on all of my legit Famicom machines. Not trying to be arrogant, just being honest, that's the way it is when dealing with old hardware. 

When altering old hardware, even minor adjustments can make things go awry, as the machines are what, 30+ years old. It's to be expected, no? 

LGR asked you to test the game on OG hardware because they, as well as I , know that the game will run on that, just won't run properly on some clones, which it doesn't have to run on, and which it's unreasonable to expect it to run on.

So yeah, you've got nothing, sorry , but you've been acting entitled about it from your first message posted on hete. Buy an OG machine and lower your expectations, please. After all , if it runs in AVS and doesn't run on my Tiger Mustang, does that give me grounds to complain 😉😄 Stop and think carefully before you answer that one, cheers I'm out.

 

 

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