General Current Events/Political Discussion

[Gloves | 11,890]

2 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Not going to dig back through countless pages to find the post, sorry.

With that being said, please tell me how it's my fault if someone else gets divorced, and similarly if said divorce pushes the remaining part of the family into poverty. Unless I was shagging someone and the divorce came about because of that reason, I honestly cannot see any reason how it would be related to me. 

FYI, not that you have to go read his posts or anything, but we do have a feature where there's a little search tool under everyone's posts, and clicking it shows you ONLY that person's posts in the current thread:

 

This would make finding the post @Link is referring to far easier.

[Tulpa | 3,569]

5 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/white-cops-dont-commit-more-shootings

Can't speak for the other two (yet), but Manhattan Institute has a very mixed record when it comes to their research and bias.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/manhattan-institute-for-policy-research/

[Link | 2,768]

Just now, Gloves said:

FYI, not that you have to go read his posts or anything, but we do have a feature where there's a little search tool under everyone's posts, and clicking it shows you ONLY that person's posts in the current thread:

Whoa. Awesome

[Link | 2,768]

here it is. Not tailored to the last couple of pages, but relevant enough to the questions.

“re: police kill more black people because they have more encounters with black people, because black people commit or are adjacent to more crime, is sitting in more than that simple context. Such as black people are more likely to be poor, due to long term oppression (redlining, education and other service cuts, etc — attn: whoever was claiming racist legislation is not a thing). And being poor means you will need alternative means of earning money [selling cigarettes — Eric Garner] , means you get pulled over [Sandra Bland, Philando Castile] for, for instance, a tail light you can’t get fixed right away (or just straight up profiling) , means you might somehow end up with a counterfeit bill, and not recognize it. [George Floyd]. Such context as that big men assume, rightly, that they can with impunity kill a teenager solely because they don’t recognize them [Trayvon Martin] or because they “fear for their life” [Laquan McDonald]. In both of those instances the teenager was walking away. 

That’s the systemic part. Martin’s killer was just protecting his neighborhood, McDonald’s was just subduing a suspect, Floyd’s and Bland’s were just doing their jobs and so their colleagues didn’t intervene — bullshit. That’s systemic. The system says selling cigarettes or doing drugs (can’t afford more legitimate self care) are crimes that police respond to, while wage theft and stock market manipulation are crimes for lawyers to address, or more likely, no one at all.  

Patterns of systemic, institutionalized racism from the point of the majority in power is real, no matter how much this person or that “doesn’t hate black people”. “

Now for you, @fcgamer, it is not to put the blame on you or me personally. It is about recognizing that society, in America, has a problem and it’s very much along racial lines.

Edited June 22, 2020 by Link

[Silent Hill | 276]

32 minutes ago, Link said:

I went on extensively some pages back about the causes of things like poverty and divorce which disproportionately affect black people more than white people. If you really want to understand something you have to look at greater contexts, not say “I guess that’s just the way it is ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ “

Same to you, cartman & Silent Hill

Couldn't find any of your comments that mentioned "poverty" or "divorce" so if you can re-share, I'd appreciate it. 

[Silent Hill | 276]

11 minutes ago, Link said:

here it is. Not tailored to the last couple of pages, but relevant enough to the questions.

“re: police kill more black people because they have more encounters with black people, because black people commit or are adjacent to more crime, is sitting in more than that simple context. Such as black people are more likely to be poor, due to long term oppression (redlining, education and other service cuts, etc — attn: whoever was claiming racist legislation is not a thing). And being poor means you will need alternative means of earning money [selling cigarettes — Eric Garner] , means you get pulled over [Sandra Bland, Philando Castile] for, for instance, a tail light you can’t get fixed right away (or just straight up profiling) , means you might somehow end up with a counterfeit bill, and not recognize it. [George Floyd]. Such context as that big men assume, rightly, that they can with impunity kill a teenager solely because they don’t recognize them [Trayvon Martin] or because they “fear for their life” [Laquan McDonald]. In both of those instances the teenager was walking away. 

That’s the systemic part. Martin’s killer was just protecting his neighborhood, McDonald’s was just subduing a suspect, Floyd’s and Bland’s were just doing their jobs and so their colleagues didn’t intervene — bullshit. That’s systemic. The system says selling cigarettes or doing drugs (can’t afford more legitimate self care) are crimes that police respond to, while wage theft and stock market manipulation are crimes for lawyers to address, or more likely, no one at all.  

Patterns of systemic, institutionalized racism from the point of the majority in power is real, no matter how much this person or that “doesn’t hate black people”. “

Now for you, @fcgamer, it is not to put the blame on you or me personally. It is about recognizing that society, in America, has a problem and it’s very much along racial lines.

I'm curious if you know of any similar situations between police and other races? Because if they exist (I'm sure they do), then that's an individual/police structure issue more so than a racial issue. Also, I'm sure historically racist laws/policies have a trickle-down effect in 2020, but I'm not sure to what degree. Since there's plenty of successful black people that were affected (directly or their parents/grandparents) it's not a guaranteed hindrance on their ability to succeed. Those aren't barriers any more and individual decisions can be made to be successful. 

Also, while there is a link between poverty and crime, you can't broadly state that your examples above are due to historic racism rather than those individual's choices. 

[fcgamer | 4,792]

2 minutes ago, Link said:

re: police kill more black people because they have more encounters with black people, because black people commit or are adjacent to more crime, is sitting in more than that simple context. Such as black people are more likely to be poor, due to long term oppression (redlining, education and other service cuts, etc — attn: whoever was claiming racist legislation is not a thing). And being poor means you will need alternative means of earning money [selling cigarettes — Eric Garner] , means you get pulled over [Sandra Bland, Philando Castile] for, for instance, a tail light you can’t get fixed right away (or just straight up profiling) , means you might somehow end up with a counterfeit bill, and not recognize it. [George Floyd]. Such context as that big men assume, rightly, that they can with impunity kill a teenager solely because they don’t recognize them [Trayvon Martin] or because they “fear for their life” [Laquan McDonald]. In both of those instances the teenager was walking away. 

That’s the systemic part. Martin’s killer was just protecting his neighborhood, McDonald’s was just subduing a suspect, Floyd’s and Bland’s were just doing their jobs and so their colleagues didn’t intervene — bullshit. That’s systemic. The system says selling cigarettes or doing drugs (can’t afford more legitimate self care) are crimes that police respond to, while wage theft and stock market manipulation are crimes for lawyers to address, or more likely, no one at all.  

Patterns of systemic, institutionalized racism from the point of the majority in power is real, no matter how much this person or that “doesn’t hate black people”. 

Those aren't race issues though, that falls more into the lines of class. We can look in poor white communities, poor Hispanic communities, etc and witness similar situations - funding cuts, less resources, and people getting involved with the wrong crowd and drugs.

I have a primary school classmate, she was quite smart (and white), we rode the bus together and grew up in a very rural area, our primary school definitely didn't have many resources. Around age twelve, her parents divorced, she started getting into fights at school, a few years back another classmate showed me that she was in jail for using and dealing drugs. It's a shame, and a lot of factors inevitably lead to this outcome, but this is more class / societal / family issues than race issues.

Similar situation in Taiwan, there's a region quite close to me with a drug abuse problem among youth. Poor, rural farming area, not much going for it, definitely schools that aren't being funded. And actually, it's the same everywhere in the world, in Russia, other parts of Europe, South America, etc.

At the end of the day though, such initial poverty doesn't have to be a death sentence or even a situation where one can't get out. One of my former students went from a married woman of two primary school - aged children, to a single mom after her husband left her for another woman. Small fishing village in Taiwan, around 1995 or 1996. Divorce , single momness, and such definitely would have been a huge deal here back then, actually it still is. She could have dealt drugs or something, but she worked hard, made sacrifices, and now is an extremely rich business woman in the area, essentially she lived the American dream except she isn't American, and such a concept is extremely difficult to put into reality in Taiwan due to the structure of the country.

So yes, while I agree that resources and life situations do factor into poverty, very much so, I disagree that it operates solely based on race, and similarly, if there's a will, people can create their own success.

[fcgamer | 4,792]

10 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

Couldn't find any of your comments that mentioned "poverty" or "divorce" so if you can re-share, I'd appreciate it. 

I could find just one or two sentences myself, and it was about poverty. I think it's what @Link reposted

[Link | 2,768]

Disproportionately.

You guys are making this about this individual or that. It’s not. There are multiple trends going on. Have been for hundreds of years.

[fcgamer | 4,792]

2 minutes ago, Link said:

Disproportionately.

You guys are making this about this individual or that. It’s not. There are multiple trends going on. Have been for hundreds of years.

Disagree, it's a common trend in poverty areas as a whole. Poverty areas have less resources, less education, more funding cuts, and more crime. But this holds true the world through, and it's not a race issue, rather a poverty / education / class issue.

[Link | 2,768]

Some people are not affected by an issue,

doesn’t mean no people are affected.

[Link | 2,768]

9 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Disagree, it's a common trend in poverty areas as a whole. Poverty areas have less resources, less education, more funding cuts, and more crime. But this holds true the world through, and it's not a race issue, rather a poverty / education / class issue.

And black people are disproportionately more likely to be poor and lower class and therefore more likely to lack access to education. Why? Because the system is racist.

Edited June 22, 2020 by Link

[Silent Hill | 276]

7 minutes ago, Link said:

And black people are disproportionately more likely to be poor and lower class and therefore more likely to lack access to education.

Wouldn't you think the high-school graduation gap between white and black be much larger then? (92% to 86% respectively)

 

[fcgamer | 4,792]

16 minutes ago, Link said:

And black people are disproportionately more likely to be poor and lower class and therefore more likely to lack access to education. Why? Because the system is racist.

First of all, are there poor people that are not lower class, and conversely, are there lower class people that are not poor? I always understood that the two went together, rather than items that could be separated from each other, but I very well could be wrong on this matter. Moving on.

We discussed a few posts up (actually I mentioned it, no one commented about it) regarding the videos with the $100 experiment, and (white) privilege). It mentioned and addressed both poverty and lack of a father figure in the home. Here's my problem about the idea that it's purely a racism issue. 

To be overly generic for example, every man's got a dong, and he can get an erection, bust a nut, and expel semen out of his member into a woman's "little sister", causing her to pop one out. Rinse, wash, and repeat as many times as desired.

It's ultimately that man's choice whether he steps up to the plate to support the girl and his child, or not. Similarly, it's up to both parties about whether they want to pork each other, whether they want to use protection, etc. The bottom line is, if you are poor and then pop out a child, and try to raise it on your own, yeah it makes it very very difficult to pick up and move elsewhere for better jobs, hard to finish higher education so that you can get better jobs, in addition to just physically having more mouths to feed, daycare costs, clothes to buy, etc. But this is a fact of life for a single parent, it's not specifically something attacking and singling out black people.

If a disproportionate number of black people end up as single parents, living below the poverty line due to the obvious and understandable reasons outlined above, then perhaps we should be addressing and looking at why this is, why a larger number of divorces or children out of wedlock with deadbeat parents. Because trust me, said situations can and do happen across racial lines, all around the world.

 

 

 

[Kguillemette | 1,561]

4 hours ago, Estil said:

TBH I don't have a whole lot of irl friends because I've always been an introvert and I don't usually go anywhere besides the store (especially with this whole virus thing).  I of course did have some when I worked at Kroger and I do still see a few when I go there to shop.  One in particular (who yes just so happens to be black) just loved to tease me about OOOOO-BAMA!!! and say "Here kitty kitty..." (yes he's also a Louisville fan   Honestly though I think their "here kitty kitty" and "uck" (prouncing UK like a word) is actually kinda cute/clever!).  He is just such a fun guy to be around let me tell ya.  Honestly, I think if he really wanted to bring up BLM he would've and I think it'd be kinda rude to risk reopening wounds and all that.  The last thing I'd want is to risk over ten years of friendship over such a sensitive issue.

I can do the whole BLM debate thing online just fine...I don't need nor want to upset anyone I know IRL over this or any other really sensitive controversial issue....I mean haven't any of you guys had something like that happen at your family's dinner table or at Thanksgiving/Christmas or whatever?  Yeah, not a pretty sight is it?  

Well, you don't have to stubbornly dig your heels and full on argue every time someone has a world viewpoint you don't agree with. It is perfectly fine to collect that person's opinion and respectfully disagree and move on. Knowing when to bow out of a discussion before turns into arguing in circles is a key to really learning about your fellow humans. 

Obviously not everyone can do that. That's why presidential debates(and little forum debates like this one) are moderated.

I will tell you that my viewpoint on race relations continuously evolves rapidly especially as a husband to a black/mexican wife. Any time I want the opinion of a black or a Mexican person, all I have to do is ask her. 

14 hours ago, The Strangest said:

Why is it bad for Kaepernick - who made it clear he wasn’t boycotting the flag or the troops - to kneel during the national anthem, but it’s okay for Tim Tebow - who said he refuses to stand for America’s flag - to kneel during the national anthem?

For what it's worth,

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/jun/19/facebook-posts/no-tim-tebow-didnt-kneel-during-national-anthem/

Both sides of the aisle fall victim to information taken out of context in an effort to spin a narrative. With social media spitting info out so fast, sometimes even major news outlets get it out wrong in an effort to get it out first.

[Strange | 1,706]

3 minutes ago, Kguillemette said:

For what it's worth,

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/jun/19/facebook-posts/no-tim-tebow-didnt-kneel-during-national-anthem/

Both sides of the aisle fall victim to information taken out of context in an effort to spin a narrative. With social media spitting info out so fast, sometimes even major news outlets get it out wrong in an effort to get it out first.

Thank you for letting me know.

I was a conservative back when Tebowing and his outspokenness about abortion were a thing, so all I really remember is being surrounded by people praising him for his “sacrifice.”

[CodysGameRoom | 2,009]

It would be nice if this board was more diverse and we could get some opinions from people who've actually experienced racism. It could help put things in perspective. 

[Strange | 1,706]

1 hour ago, CodysGameRoom said:

It would be nice if this board was more diverse and we could get some opinions from people who've actually experienced racism. It could help put things in perspective. 

Not me personally, but I’ve seen it happen to my black friends.

We went to a mom and pop thrift store in Kentucky. Me, my girlfriend at the time, and a male friend of mine who is black. The old couple that owned the place started following my male friend and peeking glances at him the whole time. I wish I would have said something.
 

A friend of mine, who is black, moved from Chattanooga to another Tennessee city. He had just moved, so he didn’t have time to change his address on his driver’s license. The officer that pulled him over had him on the ground and put him in a cell for the night because of a “false address.” 
 

A girl I was dating came home from work, and I asked her how her day was. She said bad, I asked why. She said she had a lot of black customers. I was shocked. I had been with her for two years and she had never said anything remotely like that. When I told her I wasn’t cool with it and I wanted to talk about it, she resisted and said “Sorry, that’s just how I was raised.”

[Link | 2,768]

3 hours ago, fcgamer said:

We discussed a few posts up (actually I mentioned it, no one commented about it) regarding the videos with the $100 experiment, and (white) privilege). It mentioned and addressed both poverty and lack of a father figure in the home. Here's my problem about the idea that it's purely a racism issue. 

...every man’s got a dong...

If a disproportionate number of black people end up as single parents, living below the poverty line due to the obvious and understandable reasons outlined above, then perhaps we should be addressing and looking at why this is, why a larger number of divorces or children out of wedlock with deadbeat parents. Because trust me, said situations can and do happen across racial lines, all around the world.

I generally avoid random internet videos like that. I hate podcasts. Since you brought it up again I watched the $100 video, and I think the point went right by you. 

You’re still making it about individual actions. 

I said “Why is this” and you crossed out my answer and asked “Why is this” at much greater length, so please, tell us what you think the answer is.

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by Link
quoted relevant material

[Silent Hill | 276]

10 minutes ago, The Strangest said:

Not me personally, but I’ve seen it happen to my black friends.

We went to a mom and pop thrift store in Kentucky. Me, my girlfriend at the time, and a male friend of mine who is black. The old couple that owned the place started following my male friend and peeking glances at him the whole time. I wish I would have said something.
 

A friend of mine, who is black, moved from Chattanooga to another Tennessee city. He had just moved, so he didn’t have time to change his address on his driver’s license. The officer that pulled him over had him on the ground and put him in a cell for the night because of a “false address.” 
 

A girl I was dating came home from work, and I asked her how her day was. She said bad, I asked why. She said she had a lot of black customers. I was shocked. I had been with her for two years and she had never said anything remotely like that. When I told her I wasn’t cool with it and I wanted to talk about it, she resisted and said “Sorry, that’s just how I was raised.”

Did your friend seek legal advice on being held overnight due to an incorrect address? Or is there Tennessee law stating that you have to keep the address on your ID current within a period of time? 

@CodysGameRoom You'll get a mixed bag of anecdotal situations like this, which is understandable since racism is real. I'm not sure what perspective you're hoping to gain (or have others gain) since I don't think anyone here disputes that racism exists. 

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

@Silent Hill Earlier in the thread we actually had people saying that racism does not exist in the United States. 

[Strange | 1,706]

1 minute ago, Silent Hill said:

Did your friend seek legal advice on being held overnight due to an incorrect address? Or is there Tennessee law stating that you have to keep the address on your ID current within a period of time? 

He didn’t. He was let out the next morning, had it changed, and went about his life. He didnt want to spend time fighting it, he just wanted to finish getting his degree (transferred from UT Chatt to the university I attended). He wasn’t certain that he would A. win or B. gain much from it if he did.

[Silent Hill | 276]

12 minutes ago, Link said:

I generally avoid random internet videos like that. I hate podcasts. Since you brought it up again I watched the $100 video, and I think the point went right by you. 

You’re still making it about individual actions. 

I said “Why is this” and you crossed out my answer and asked “Why is this” at much greater length, so please, tell us what you think the answer is.

 

@fcgamer Should clear this up, but to me, he's thinking outside of just the racial scope to try and identify the reasons behind the disparity in family structure. If you want to hold firm on "Because the system is racist", then maybe you should provide more detail on why that's the driving factor?

[Silent Hill | 276]

2 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

@Silent Hill Earlier in the thread we actually had people saying that racism does not exist in the United States. 

Oof. I'd hope we can all agree on that.
 

Racism is definitely real, but I stand on the side of it being an individual issue versus systemic. 

[Link | 2,768]

3 hours ago, Silent Hill said:

Wouldn't you think the high-school graduation gap between white and black be much larger then? (92% to 86% respectively)

I’m sorry I left out the qualifier. I meant to refer to “quality education” not just “education”. I know schools are different in different regions /cities /neighborhoods. Predominantly white areas (while YES, some are poor and shitty, arguing such ignores that most are not) more often have high quality schools than predominantly black areas. So the graduation rate can be seen as rather close, but the resources and skills imparted are lower in communities where more people struggle more. Which is the case affecting black people more often as a percentage of the total than white people, because racial community makeup is still stratified due to decades and centuries of policy.