Questions About Obscure NES Games

[fcgamer | 4,725]

6 hours ago, Tulpa said:

I've never seen a standalone Magic Jewelry for 72 pin NES either. Only on multicarts. If it exists, it's a rare bird.

It would be one that would be within the realm of possibility for existing. To put things into perspective, another game from the same developers and time (Wild Ball) is extremely difficult to find on a single (Famicom) cartridge, though it does exist.

[Sumez | 2,959]

Speaking of which, a contact of mine who's done a lot of looking into local video game distribution and marketing here throughout the 80s and 90s hooked me up with this 90s (sales) ad for Sachen games:

Apparently Electronic Land Scandinavia was founded in 87 and went bankrupt in 2002

[Code Monkey | 2,011]

8 hours ago, fcgamer said:

If the games were not sold at retail, where did they come from? We're birds crapping them out whilst flying over the cities?

Why isn't @Code Monkey asking if NES Crime Busters is retail? Or Mahjong, or Little Samson or...

The sources he is using are predicated on the uprising against and discrimination of the Sachens back in the early 2000s caused by the DP "fiasco". If that didn't happen, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I mean, are Gluk games retail?

 

Cheetahmen II wasn't sold at retail but thousands of them exist.

I've never heard of Crime Busters, what is it?

Mah-Jong is packaged closely enough to other Asia releases and gives me enough evidence it was released along side those games at retail locations.

Little Samson is licensed by Nintendo with packaging consistent with other retail releases. Sachen games are unlicensed and have stranger packaging / cartridges, none of which have been proven to be released at retail locations.

I don't know what DP is and I have no idea to which fiasco you're referring.

What's a Gluk game?

[Ankos | 442]

2 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

What's a Gluk game?

They were a publisher of a variety of unlicensed games out in Europe. They did some Caltron and Micro Genius stuff and used the same cartridge shell as the NA Caltron 6 in 1

[Ankos | 442]

10 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

Cheetahmen II wasn't sold at retail but thousands of them exist.

I've never heard of Crime Busters, what is it?

Cheetahmen II wasn't officially released by Active Enterprises was it? I heard they made it to market after the company went under, putting it in a weird situation. Had it been sold via mail order it would at least be safe to say it was released, but I don't think it was

Crime Busters is by Bit Corp. It got published in Brazil in 72-pin format by a company called Gradiente that had ties to what would later be Playtronic (the official NES publisher in Brazil)

[Code Monkey | 2,011]

16 minutes ago, Ankos said:

They were a publisher of a variety of unlicensed games out in Europe. They did some Caltron and Micro Genius stuff and used the same cartridge shell as the NA Caltron 6 in 1

 

4 minutes ago, Ankos said:

Cheetahmen II wasn't officially released by Active Enterprises was it? I heard they made it to market after the company went under, putting it in a weird situation. Had it been sold via mail order it would at least be safe to say it was released, but I don't think it was

Crime Busters is by Bit Corp. It got published in Brazil in 72-pin format by a company called Gradiente that had ties to what would later be Playtronic (the official NES publisher in Brazil)

Did either get a retail store release? I'm putting together a list of licensed NES games and I'm arguing the 677 number.

[T-Pac | 7,550]

By now I'm convinced we'll never know the true retail status for some of these shadier games.

Just because something was advertised, doesn't guarantee it was sold. 

And just because something was sold, doesn't guarantee it was a retail release.

[T-Pac]

[Ankos | 442]

10 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

 

Did either get a retail store release? I'm putting together a list of licensed NES games and I'm arguing the 677 number.

I would not know with the Brazil stuff. It wouldn't surprise me just because of how widespread unofficial 72-pin stuff is there, but most of it is pretty new to me

Gluk according to this showed up in store catalogues for hypercor, so it should have been sold at retail

[Ankos | 442]

13 minutes ago, T-Pac said:

By now I'm convinced we'll never know the true retail status for some of these shadier games.

That's part of the fun of it. There will always be more to discover about them

[Tulpa | 3,505]

1 hour ago, Ankos said:

Cheetahmen II wasn't officially released by Active Enterprises was it? I heard they made it to market after the company went under, putting it in a weird situation. Had it been sold via mail order it would at least be safe to say it was released, but I don't think it was

Most were sold by Mike Etler, but he pretty much sold them to whoever knew about them. Probably through early NES usenet/forums.

It's pretty much the same as the Storage Wars guys buying something and reselling it.

Active Enterprises went under in like 1991, and the earliest Cheetahmen II were making the rounds circa 1998 (give or take a year or so.) My theory is that Active had the boxes made, and were trying to rush it out the door (hence reused Action 52 carts and no manual) but the bottom fell out and the boxed copies sat in that warehouse until someone said "hey, the dudes who own this are long gone, and this Etler fellow is offering us cash for it. Why not?"

1 hour ago, Code Monkey said:

 

Did either get a retail store release? I'm putting together a list of licensed NES games and I'm arguing the 677 number.

Cheetahmen II wasn't licensed, so it doesn't factor into the 677 number.

It would factor into the 91 unlicensed titles that is usually cited for North American releases, though obviously it's fudging the definition of retail at that point. Myriad 6-in-1 is in a similar situation, though that at least rebranded the publishing.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Tulpa

[Ferris Bueller | 495]

14 hours ago, fcgamer said:

Nintendo is no longer licensing NES games, putting this into a grey area. I'd just count it as an aftermarket release.

 

This is correct. They aren't official; there is no NOA seal of quality. It is a true reproduction, or possibly a "rerelease", both of which fall under aftermarket.

[fcgamer | 4,725]

3 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

Mah-Jong is packaged closely enough to other Asia releases and gives me enough evidence it was released along side those games at retail locations.

Little Samson is licensed by Nintendo with packaging consistent with other retail releases.

This doesn't mean they were released and sold at retail though. These could have been final copies that ended up in a Cheetahmen 2-style situation where there was intention to release it, but it only made it out later.

Which brings us back to my point regarding the Sachens. We know Sachen games were sold at retail level, as I literally saw (and bought) Sachen Famicom and Game Boy games from retail shops. Plus we have an advertisement for Sachen games. The original print Sachen games didn't just appear out of thin air, it makes more sense that they were available at retail (albeit in limited quantities / lower-tier shops) than it would that they were not available.

Until I see proof, I'm calling bullshit that Little Samson was released at retail. Mahjong there was a copy with a box that had a sticker on it, so that would have been your easy out regarding my argument, but as far as I am concerned, Little Samson never shipped, and the copies floating around are just leaked. Proof me otherwise. 

Edited August 1, 2023 by fcgamer

[fcgamer | 4,725]

This i got from a major toy shop chain in central Taiwan. So yes, Sachen was releasing their games at a retail level.

The other two are also from shops.

 

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,013]

18 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Until I see proof, I'm calling bullshit that Little Samson was released at retail.

You think it was a mail in exclusive? A give away release? Some traveling sales people went door to door? Saying it's not until someone can prove it is almost a non falsifiable claim bc we don't live in the past and we can't walk into stores and show you.

All you need to do is see a KB Toys sticker on a box or what? An add? 

I think your claim of it's not a retail release needs some evidence. What evidence do you have that it was produced in a vacuum and then forgotten about until Indian Jones showed up and sold them to the world one briefcase at a time?

[fcgamer | 4,725]

5 minutes ago, RegularGuyGamer said:

You think it was a mail in exclusive? A give away release? Some traveling sales people went door to door? Saying it's not until someone can prove it is almost a non falsifiable claim bc we don't live in the past and we can't walk into stores and show you.

All you need to do is see a KB Toys sticker on a box or what? An add? 

I think your claim of it's not a retail release needs some evidence. What evidence do you have that it was produced in a vacuum and then forgotten about until Indian Jones showed up and sold them to the world one briefcase at a time?

How is this any different from Sachen? 

[Link | 2,713]

7 minutes ago, RegularGuyGamer said:

I think your claim of it's not a retail release needs some evidence. What evidence do you have that it was produced in a vacuum and then forgotten about until Indian Jones showed up and sold them to the world one briefcase at a time?

He is just arguing the point because he thinks trying to sow doubt about another game will add some kind of legitimacy to his precious persecution complex Sachens. 

[Ankos | 442]

https://bootleggames.fandom.com/wiki/GRA.DI._S.r.l.

Take this with a grain of salt since there is no citation on the part that alleges this, but according to BGW a distributor of Sachen games in Italy sold their products in small stores so technically "retail" but not big stuff like Target

[Code Monkey | 2,011]

54 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Until I see proof, I'm calling bullshit that Little Samson was released at retail. Mahjong there was a copy with a box that had a sticker on it, so that would have been your easy out regarding my argument, but as far as I am concerned, Little Samson never shipped, and the copies floating around are just leaked. Proof me otherwise. 

Great. Please make your own thread, I have no interest in Little Samson at this time.

Does anyone have any evidence Sachen released NES games at a retail store? I didn't ask about Game Boy, Famicom nor Little Samson, I'm wondering about 72 pin NES only.

[Code Monkey | 2,011]

23 minutes ago, Ankos said:

https://bootleggames.fandom.com/wiki/GRA.DI._S.r.l.

Take this with a grain of salt since there is no citation on the part that alleges this, but according to BGW a distributor of Sachen games in Italy sold their products in small stores so technically "retail" but not big stuff like Target

I have a hard time taking any publication seriously when they use the word "Famiclone" but the article mentions generic boxes with blank spaces to affix the labels. Any Sachen games I've seen have beautiful artwork on the boxes so is it possible they imported some sort of first print run or even different games?

[Ankos | 442]

In my opinion if a game was in the hands of consumers back in the day the more likely assumption would be that at least some copies got sold at some sort of retail at some point. That includes mail order stuff. Gowin for an example was known to offer sample orders to individuals who were curious about selling their products. To say that no store ever picked up a few copies and put them on a shelf to me just wouldn't make sense. Whether or not the primary means of sale was retail would be harder to say

On a side note, I've seen some anecdotes on the internet on Little Samson being sold new in stores back in the day. Very soft evidence, but it is something. This is not counting the Famicom version

[Code Monkey | 2,011]

1 minute ago, Ankos said:

In my opinion if a game was in the hands of consumers back in the day the more likely assumption would be that at least some copies got sold at some sort of retail at some point. That includes mail order stuff. Gowin for an example was known to offer sample orders to individuals who were curious about selling their products. To say that no store ever picked up a few copies and put them on a shelf to me just wouldn't make sense. Whether or not the primary means of sale was retail would be harder to say

On a side note, I've seen some anecdotes on the internet on Little Samson being sold new in stores back in the day. Very soft evidence, but it is something. This is not counting the Famicom version

I know Air Raid is more obscure than Sachen but many Atari 2600 collectors have Air Raid on their shelf and the general consensus is that the game never made it past the travelling salesman point. It was marketed to game stores but it doesn't appear like any stores ordered copies of it. There is one boxed example with a Tuesday Morning sticker on the front and people have traced the origins of this sticker back to a store in the area but they think it was an owner that got a demonstration copy and threw it in the bargain bin when he was done with it.

[Ankos | 442]

Just now, Code Monkey said:

I have a hard time taking any publication seriously when they use the word "Famiclone" but the article mentions generic boxes with blank spaces to affix the labels. Any Sachen games I've seen have beautiful artwork on the boxes so is it possible they imported some sort of first print run or even different games?

The GRA.DI. stuff I've seen pictures of seem to have their own boxes, different from the more mysterious widespread Sachen stuff

Here's a link to one on eBay if you want pictures https://www.ebay.com/itm/364220403891

Anyways, it does give a name of a distributor and possible locations of where their products were sold, so hopefully someone who was there could at least provide anecdotes

[Ankos | 442]

1 minute ago, Code Monkey said:

I know Air Raid is more obscure than Sachen but many Atari 2600 collectors have Air Raid on their shelf and the general consensus is that the game never made it past the travelling salesman point. It was marketed to game stores but it doesn't appear like any stores ordered copies of it. There is one boxed example with a Tuesday Morning sticker on the front and people have traced the origins of this sticker back to a store in the area but they think it was an owner that got a demonstration copy and threw it in the bargain bin when he was done with it.

I was more of going for likelihood rather than 100% proof. Due to how obscure some of this stuff is that to me is an important bridge to cross before proving anything

[Ankos | 442]

This is a GRA.DI. product with a barcode, which would suggest that at least some of their products were sold at least in small shops. This one isn't a Sachen game though, but it is something

http://www.atariboxed.com/index.php?go=detail&modul_refnumber=1232

Edited August 1, 2023 by Ankos

[Code Monkey | 2,011]

6 minutes ago, Ankos said:

The GRA.DI. stuff I've seen pictures of seem to have their own boxes, different from the more mysterious widespread Sachen stuff

Here's a link to one on eBay if you want pictures https://www.ebay.com/itm/364220403891

Anyways, it does give a name of a distributor and possible locations of where their products were sold, so hopefully someone who was there could at least provide anecdotes

I didn't know this version existed and now I really want it.