Questions About Obscure NES Games

[fcgamer | 4,725]

3 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

I have a hard time taking any publication seriously when they use the word "Famiclone" but the article mentions generic boxes with blank spaces to affix the labels. Any Sachen games I've seen have beautiful artwork on the boxes so is it possible they imported some sort of first print run or even different games?

No offense dude, but I have problems taking people seriously when they make claims out of the gate such as their "sources" saying Sachen games weren't retail, as well as some of the other claims in the first post. Pair it with not knowing Digital Press, and it just suggests to me that very, very little research was done.

[fcgamer | 4,725]

Also, it's quite telling that the one side (i.e. me) is even agreeing and pointing that some stuff wasn't retail (Huge Insect), yet the other side prefers just to sling snarky remarks rather than concede that in general, Sachen games were retail games.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

[fcgamer | 4,725]

Maybe the original source being used is ... Wikipedia?! I just noticed that on there, they state that Decathlon was a game made for the Nintendo Entertainment System (NES) and also how the Magic Jewelry guy was a developer of NES games. 

It's terribly misleading information, hmm if only there were a solution such as viewing the NES and Famicom as different things.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

What if we specifically defined “retail” tho

[Ankos | 442]

18 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

What if we specifically defined “retail” tho

That would be useful. I was under the impression that we were going with anything originally sold off of store shelves. I guess we could narrow it down to specific types of stores, but how goods are sold are going to vary a bit from place to place

Edited August 2, 2023 by Ankos
adjusted wording

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,013]

34 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

What if we specifically defined “retail” tho

Not a Bodega 

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

21 minutes ago, RegularGuyGamer said:

Not a Bodega 

Oh you mean “any place that sells stuff” doesn't count? Interesting

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

40 minutes ago, Ankos said:

That would be useful. I was under the impression that we were going with anything originally sold off of store shelves. I guess we could narrow it down to specific types of stores, but how goods are sold are going to vary a bit from place to place

Just saying, if an argument on legitimacy is based on “being sold at retail”, it should be defined. 
 

An international chain store?

A regional chain store based on franchises?

A local detritus/junk store chain with 3 locations owned by a single Small business owner?

A back alley flea market that happens to put price tags on things?

[Gloves | 11,783]

4 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Just saying, if an argument on legitimacy is based on “being sold at retail”, it should be defined. 
 

An international chain store?

A regional chain store based on franchises?

A local detritus/junk store chain with 3 locations owned by a single Small business owner?

A back alley flea market that happens to put price tags on things?

If "sold at retail" is the only qualifier, then all the bootleg DVDs my parents bought when I was a teen at the corner store in our ghetto ass side of the city were apparently legit.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

Just now, Gloves said:

If "sold at retail" is the only qualifier, then all the bootleg DVDs my parents bought when I was a teen at the corner store in our ghetto ass side of the city were apparently legit.

[Ankos | 442]

14 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Just saying, if an argument on legitimacy is based on “being sold at retail”, it should be defined. 
 

An international chain store?

A regional chain store based on franchises?

A local detritus/junk store chain with 3 locations owned by a single Small business owner?

A back alley flea market that happens to put price tags on things?

For me I prefer a more flexible idea of retail since not everywhere is going to have an equivalent of a Super Target, and if we are making a worldwide list, then we should have a version of retail that can be met in most regions of the World. I would say that big retail stores and shops in malls/shopping centers would meet my criteria. A stall by the side of the road that isn't even in an enclosed building would not though. The store in question would also have to sell products in new condition since used goods stores don't really restrict what they sell beyond broad categories

What would not affect if something is retail or not to me is the vibe of the products. A friend out in Mainland China I remember mentioning to me that Waixing Famicom carts were at one point sold in Walmarts there. That to me feels strange since I think of Waixing as being sort of underground since they sold pirate copies of offical Famicom games, but a Walmart is a Walmart, so it would feel wrong to try and disqualify it as being retail

[Code Monkey | 2,011]

5 hours ago, fcgamer said:

No offense dude, but I have problems taking people seriously when they make claims out of the gate such as their "sources" saying Sachen games weren't retail, as well as some of the other claims in the first post. Pair it with not knowing Digital Press, and it just suggests to me that very, very little research was done.

I didn't do any research.......at all. I posted the question on a forum to discuss the topic, that's why we have a forum. I don't know what you're so upset about, I thought this discussion was going really well.

Are you mad that someone else told me Sachen games weren't sold at retail? Okay.........why are you mad at me for them telling me that? I literally came here to validate it with you instead of just believing them so here I am, trying to discuss it with you to get your opinion on it. I would really like your feedback if you're willing to provide it.

Are you mad I don't know what Digital Press is? Does everyone else here know what that is? I'm not sure why anyone would be upset about that.

 

1 hour ago, Ankos said:

That would be useful. I was under the impression that we were going with anything originally sold off of store shelves. I guess we could narrow it down to specific types of stores, but how goods are sold are going to vary a bit from place to place

I'm looking for any establishment paying rent for an enclosed, lockable space safe from the elements for which they have signed a lease and are paying taxes on all sales. I would also expect they are getting their merchandise directly from the manufacturer and not from other retailers.

If they purchase 150 games from a retailer going out of business, that doesn't count.

[Tulpa | 3,505]

4 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

I didn't do any research.......at all. I posted the question on a forum to discuss the topic, that's why we have a forum. I don't know what you're so upset about, I thought this discussion was going really well.

Are you mad that someone else told me Sachen games weren't sold at retail? Okay.........why are you mad at me for them telling me that? I literally came here to validate it with you instead of just believing them so here I am, trying to discuss it with you to get your opinion on it. I would really like your feedback if you're willing to provide it.

Are you mad I don't know what Digital Press is? Does everyone else here know what that is? I'm not sure why anyone would be upset about that.

Ignore Dave. He's clearly got an agenda.

[fcgamer | 4,725]

6 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

Ignore Dave. He's clearly got an agenda.

What agenda would that be? I don't even collect NES sachen games.

[fcgamer | 4,725]

On 8/1/2023 at 4:17 AM, Code Monkey said:

1.  
2. Did Sachen games ever get a retail release? Again, sources tell me no. Were they sealed in some way?

You said sources told you that Sachen games didn't get a retail release. However, you also said the following:

31 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

I didn't do any research.......at all. I posted the question on a forum to discuss the topic, that's why we have a forum. I don't know what you're so upset about, I thought this discussion was going really well.

Are you mad that someone else told me Sachen games weren't sold at retail? Okay.........why are you mad at me for them telling me that? I literally came here to validate it with you instead of just believing them so here I am, trying to discuss it with you to get your opinion on it. I would really like your feedback if you're willing to provide it.

Are you mad I don't know what Digital Press is? Does everyone else here know what that is? I'm not sure why anyone would be upset about that.

 

I'm looking for any establishment paying rent for an enclosed, lockable space safe from the elements for which they have signed a lease and are paying taxes on all sales. I would also expect they are getting their merchandise directly from the manufacturer and not from other retailers.

If they purchase 150 games from a retailer going out of business, that doesn't count.

I'm confused a bit because you said you didn't do any research, yet also claim to have sources telling you things. 

I'm not mad at all, I'm just confused, and if you are going discredit a site based on the usage of the term Famiclone (trust me, I feel that wiki has some issues as well, but it's the best we've got) then it would be fair for me to discredit someone on the basis of not knowing the story that likely sealed the fate of the Sachen games to be tossed aside as the unloved, illegitimate bastard son of the Color Dreams games. That's the only point I was making. 

That being said, definitely listen the thoughts that @Ankos presents. We don't always agree on everything, but I really do respect his thoughts and insight. Furthermore, he is someone whose thoughts some around here might find to be more trustworthy than mine, even if they do sometimes align.

For example, I agree that to determine the definition of retail would be important; however, as Ankos also pointed out, we should be removing knee-jerk prejudices about American or Canadian retail when laying down a definition. I've attached some pictures of a large electronics chain in Taiwan. They sold unauthorized games back in the day, even when I first came here they were selling some clone machines. Now they might still have a few clones, but mostly just have a meagre selection of Xbox / PS5 / Switch / whatever is popular these days. This looks just like a regular retail store, no? I think it looks much more legit than Radio Shack, for example, and this store is found island wide, basically a couple in every city or town.

As such, we cannot use the idea that a country carried unauthorized products as a means of excluding it from being considered a "retail" shop. Also, there were Famiclones sold in some Danish retail shops circa 2000 or whenever, as another example. French retailer Carrefour also sold Famiclones back in 2011 in Taiwan, they even were stocking clones that doubled as MP3 players, and clones that were made twenty minutes down the road by a clone manufacturer here locally.

A one-off shop bodega that was owned and ran by a grandma? Yeah, that likely wouldn't count, but other large one-off shops maybe should. Again it goes back to the culture and structure of the country, and different countries aren't going to match up 1:1 with a general America / Canada perspective.

 

 

 

 

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

If there was any single certifiable sliver of proof of a Sachen game being sold at retail in the USA, @fcgamer would be waving it around in every thread on here until kingdom come...  but he isn't...

@Code Monkey Sachen games were not released in North America in the "traditional" sense, though some did dribble to our shores due to immigration, shipping, "it's all one big commercial world," etc.  However, they work on NTSC NES machines and we have a complete list of which ones exist.  So, at the end of the day, you just need to decide if you want them or not because no one can prove they were released over here (including fcgamer), and the rest of us can't prove a negative.   We've been arguing this for almost 25 years and nobody at this point is going to change anybody else's mind...

[fcgamer | 4,725]

9 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

If there was any single certifiable sliver of proof of a Sachen game being sold at retail in the USA, @fcgamer would be waving it around in every thread on here until kingdom come...  but he isn't...

@Code Monkey Sachen games were not released in North America in the "traditional" sense, though some did dribble to our shores due to immigration, shipping, "it's all one big commercial world," etc.  However, they work on NTSC NES machines and we have a complete list of which ones exist.  So, at the end of the day, you just need to decide if you want them or not because no one can prove they were released over here (including fcgamer), and the rest of us can't prove a negative.   We've been arguing this for almost 25 years and nobody at this point is going to change anybody else's mind...

I think he's more concerned about a worldwide retail set though, rather than just whether they were released in North America or not. 

[fcgamer | 4,725]

On a totally different note, do people consider the Panesian games and the Wisdom Tree games to be retail releases?

[Code Monkey | 2,011]

4 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

I think he's more concerned about a worldwide retail set though, rather than just whether they were released in North America or not. 

I'm building a mobile collection tracker so I need to know the general consensus of how people will want them categorized. Right now, unless I have some sort of proof something was sold at retail, I need to classify it as not sold at retail.

This doesn't change the argument if it was or not, I just have to make some sort of decision in the current moment based on the evidence I have.

[Code Monkey | 2,011]

20 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

You said sources told you that Sachen games didn't get a retail release. However, you also said the following:

I'm confused a bit because you said you didn't do any research, yet also claim to have sources telling you things. 

My source is simply a vague recollection of someone on Nintendo Age saying they didn't. I couldn't even tell you details because I don't remember but that's the mystery behind the source and what prompted me to ask here.

[fcgamer | 4,725]

@Code Monkey How will you classify the Panesian and Wisdom Tree games?

 

edit: Also, if you are asking based on how the general public would want something categorized, then you might want to think about whether games as Stadium Events and FlintStones 2 would fall under retail or not - definitely would depend you would ask.

Edited August 2, 2023 by fcgamer

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,013]

Nintendo had a section on their website for retailers to be approved for selling games

10 hours ago, Gloves said:

If "sold at retail" is the only qualifier, then all the bootleg DVDs my parents bought when I was a teen at the corner store in our ghetto ass side of the city were apparently legit.

It's retail bro. Trust me. 

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,013]

8 hours ago, fcgamer said:

Also, if you are asking based on how the general public would want something categorized, then you might want to think about whether games as Stadium Events and FlintStones 2 would fall under retail or not - definitely would depend you would ask.

It seems like it would only matter if we asked you and like 11 other people in the world. 

Stadium events was pulled from shelves but even if 1 was delivered by the Nintendo van and sold at a big box store,it was a retail release. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by RegularGuyGamer

[Code Monkey | 2,011]

9 hours ago, fcgamer said:

@Code Monkey How will you classify the Panesian and Wisdom Tree games?

 

edit: Also, if you are asking based on how the general public would want something categorized, then you might want to think about whether games as Stadium Events and FlintStones 2 would fall under retail or not - definitely would depend you would ask.

Unlicensed so retail is harder to define for those. Some games were mail order, some were special order, some ordered the game from a travelling salesman.

Stadium Events was available on shelves, it's retail.

I also believe The Flintstones: Surprise At Dinosaur Peak was available to all game stores, it's just Blockbuster that was still stocking NES games in 1994. Besides, the only sealed copy known to exist came from a different store.