Questions About Obscure NES Games

[Gloves | 11,783]

"Retail" is just such a difficult to confirm, regional, contextual, and frankly ridiculous way to categorize... anything. 

Why not just go straight for the throat and stick with something simple like "Authorized". Did it have the seal of approval, and if so was it actually put there with permission? Done and dusted, it's a simple yes/no. The moment you introduce anything more complex than that you're jumping into subjectivity and you're honestly just wasting time at that point.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

45 minutes ago, Gloves said:

"Retail" is just such a difficult to confirm, regional, contextual, and frankly ridiculous way to categorize... anything. 

Why not just go straight for the throat and stick with something simple like "Authorized". Did it have the seal of approval, and if so was it actually put there with permission? Done and dusted, it's a simple yes/no. The moment you introduce anything more complex than that you're jumping into subjectivity and you're honestly just wasting time at that point.

Thats what we should do, but un-ambiguous “yes or no” leaves one party’s argument moot. 
 

“Retail” is in fact 100% irrelevant when talking about licensed/authorized or not. 
 

edit:

remember this thread?

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by MrWunderful

[Ankos | 442]

39 minutes ago, Gloves said:

"Retail" is just such a difficult to confirm, regional, contextual, and frankly ridiculous way to categorize... anything. 

Why not just go straight for the throat and stick with something simple like "Authorized". Did it have the seal of approval, and if so was it actually put there with permission? Done and dusted, it's a simple yes/no. The moment you introduce anything more complex than that you're jumping into subjectivity and you're honestly just wasting time at that point.

I suppose it makes for a nice qualifier for unlicensed games, since it is a bit hard to say what is the "canon" set of those once you go beyond the USA. It would also axe things like games given out as raffle prizes or tournament events, like NWC, which might be a bonus for some people

If you factor in companies that official distributed games on behalf of Nintendo, like Samurai, then "authorized" all of a sudden can get a little hard to say. If an official Nintendo distributor goes rogue and sells an imitation of a unlicensed product is is "authorized" since the distributor is official? I would say no, though it creates a weird situation for me. Maybe a third term "quasi-authorized" would be good for stuff like that

[fcgamer | 4,725]

1 hour ago, Gloves said:

"Retail" is just such a difficult to confirm, regional, contextual, and frankly ridiculous way to categorize... anything. 

Why not just go straight for the throat and stick with something simple like "Authorized". Did it have the seal of approval, and if so was it actually put there with permission? Done and dusted, it's a simple yes/no. The moment you introduce anything more complex than that you're jumping into subjectivity and you're honestly just wasting time at that point.

 

27 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

“Retail” is in fact 100% irrelevant when talking about licensed/authorized or not. 
 

 

If you go for authorized / unauthorized, you need to add a region next to each game. You cannot just state game XYZ is authorized / licensed, full stop. There are situations where a game is licensed / authorized in one region, and not so in other regions.

[fcgamer | 4,725]

1 hour ago, Code Monkey said:

Unlicensed so retail is harder to define for those. Some games were mail order, some were special order, some ordered the game from a travelling salesman.

Stadium Events was available on shelves, it's retail.

I also believe The Flintstones: Surprise At Dinosaur Peak was available to all game stores, it's just Blockbuster that was still stocking NES games in 1994. Besides, the only sealed copy known to exist came from a different store.

The reason I asked you  about those particular games is as such, and it's possibly why no one else dared touch the situation:

1. Panesians (on the boxes) mark the games as being for sale in the USA and Canada only. Collectors historically always believed that the games were exclusively sold via adult toy / porn shops back in the day. Maybe there is a chain of adult shops, I honestly don't know, but the ones in my area were always one-off shops, it seemed. So would adult toy shops be considered retail or not, is what I am asking.

2. For the Widom Tree games, it is a similar situation, aside from the fact that there have been testimonies from collectors and gamers who actually remember (and some who likely bought) the Wisdom Tree games from Christian bookstores back in the day. There are some chain shops, but again, the rigid lines of what "retail" actually means starts to blur quite a bit.

Yet for the Wisdom Tree games and the Panesian games, there's generally been little date in the community that they are part of the "set", unlike something like Cheetahmen II, which many now consider to have been unreleased.

3. With Stadium Events, available and then allegedly recalled, I'd think that might need an asterisks next to it.

4. With Flintstones: Surprise At Dinosaur Peak, I'm not too keen on the words you started that sentence out with, namely "I also believe..." . I'm not trying to pick on you here, but one sealed game to turn up could have been a similar situation to the Air Raid with a price sticker that was mentioned earlier. Pair that with the rumor that it was a blockbuster exclusive for years, and things become even more murky. It's a clear case of the Sachens, imo, just not enough evidence to confirm exactly the truth about it, at the moment anyways.

[fcgamer | 4,725]

42 minutes ago, Ankos said:

I suppose it makes for a nice qualifier for unlicensed games, since it is a bit hard to say what is the "canon" set of those once you go beyond the USA. It would also axe things like games given out as raffle prizes or tournament events, like NWC, which might be a bonus for some people

If you factor in companies that official distributed games on behalf of Nintendo, like Samurai, then "authorized" all of a sudden can get a little hard to say. If an official Nintendo distributor goes rogue and sells an imitation of a unlicensed product is is "authorized" since the distributor is official? I would say no, though it creates a weird situation for me. Maybe a third term "quasi-authorized" would be good for stuff like that

Well we have Konami pcbs showing up in bootleg Famicom shells, Nintendo chips showing up in bootleg Korean famicom shells, Videomation showing up authorized by the developer but unauthorized by Nintendo in regions around the world, etc.

It's a complex world out there guys, maybe it would be easiest for @Code Monkey to just drop the worldwide goal and stick with licensed NES for the North American market only...

edit: Then again, that wouldn't really "solve" the Flintstones problem.

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by fcgamer

[Khromak | 768]

@Code Monkey I think you need to define what you mean by retail and then ask those specific questions about specific games. If your app will consider something retail if it got a sticker put on it, then you'll have a different answer than if it's a game shipped to a store by the manufacturer, or if you only consider an item retail if it was available in more than 1 state/province, if it was sold by mass-market stores, or whatever other criteria you set.

@fcgamer also has another point: if a game was sold at retail in one country, but not another, is that considered retail? I'd say yes, but that's also a decision for you to make.

Ultimately, you will always end up with people who dispute your definition, so it's going to be a gagglefuck. Might want to consider @Gloves suggestion of just...not using a retail tag. It's not a very meaningful separation, IMHO.

[Code Monkey | 2,011]

1 hour ago, Khromak said:

@Code Monkey I think you need to define what you mean by retail and then ask those specific questions about specific games. If your app will consider something retail if it got a sticker put on it, then you'll have a different answer than if it's a game shipped to a store by the manufacturer, or if you only consider an item retail if it was available in more than 1 state/province, if it was sold by mass-market stores, or whatever other criteria you set.

 

15 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

I'm looking for any establishment paying rent for an enclosed, lockable space safe from the elements for which they have signed a lease and are paying taxes on all sales. I would also expect they are getting their merchandise directly from the manufacturer and not from other retailers.

If they purchase 150 games from a retailer going out of business, that doesn't count.

 

[Khromak | 768]

OK guys, here's your question, were any/all of these games sold by an establishment paying rent for an enclosed, lockable space safe from the elements for which they have signed a lease and are paying taxes on all sales, and did their merchandise come directly from manufacturers?

1. Decathalon
2. Magic Jewelry
3. Cheetahmen II
4. Sachen games
5. HES games
6. NES Smurfs game with The Smurfs written in English on the front
7. Myriad 6-In-1
8. Hammerin' Harry NTSC (IMHO this one does not meet your criteria because the manufacturer is distributing them directly to customers and there are no store displays)

[Ankos | 442]

30 minutes ago, Khromak said:

OK guys, here's your question, were any/all of these games sold by an establishment paying rent for an enclosed, lockable space safe from the elements for which they have signed a lease and are paying taxes on all sales, and did their merchandise come directly from manufacturers?

1. Decathalon
2. Magic Jewelry
3. Cheetahmen II
4. Sachen games
5. HES games
6. NES Smurfs game with The Smurfs written in English on the front
7. Myriad 6-In-1
8. Hammerin' Harry NTSC (IMHO this one does not meet your criteria because the manufacturer is distributing them directly to customers and there are no store displays)

For 72-pin format there is no evidence in favor of that definition of retail for: Magic Jewelry, Decathlon, Cheetahmen II, and Myriad based on what has already been posted

99% sure HES did hit retail based on what anecdotes I've seen online

Sachen it depends on what you mean. Sachen had games published by HES, so those would in all likelihood have retail releases. I posted evidence of a distributor of Sachen products who also sold Atari 2600 video games that have been found with store barcodes on them. We don't know the details of the stores, though it is not that much of a stretch to say that a smaller store could meet that criteria of retail. If they used barcodes then they probably weren't just being sold out of someone's garage. Other Sachen releases with more widespread distribution (the more ornate boxes that resemble the Huge Insect one) I don't think I'd rule out completely, but there is less evidence pointing to them having retail releases

The other two games on that list had different questions associated with them which is why I did not address them

[fcgamer | 4,725]

I'll ask again, if this is a worldwide service, how is Videomation going to be classified?

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

Somebody should make a vertical flow chart. 
 

Start at Nintendo of Japan, nintendo USA, or whoever else they have. 
 

Filter it down through all the distributors, developers, 3rd party licensed international sub contractors, local publishers, overstock buyers, etc.

 

Then just draw a horizontal line through it and define whatever you want on either side. Who can give out seals of approval? Who can put Nintendo tm (c) on something?
 

Think about how we could solve this all right now!

[fcgamer | 4,725]

16 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Somebody should make a vertical flow chart. 
 

Start at Nintendo of Japan, nintendo USA, or whoever else they have. 
 

Filter it down through all the distributors, developers, 3rd party licensed international sub contractors, local publishers, overstock buyers, etc.

 

Then just draw a horizontal line through it and define whatever you want on either side. Who can give out seals of approval? Who can put Nintendo tm (c) on something?
 

Think about how we could solve this all right now!

It's a great idea but it would have to be done region by region, and I'm not just talking NA, J, and Eur

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

34 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

It's a great idea but it would have to be done region by region, and I'm not just talking NA, J, and Eur

It all started with nintendo of japan, right? Start there and the regions will define themselves.

[Tanooki | 4,934]

I can't answer all this, but I can answer Magic Jewelry (which also had a #2 too) and Sachen.

Yes the puzzle game was a legit title, yes it is mostly found on multicarts like the Golden Game 260in1(FC and NES style), but also that Hwang Shinwei title also did have a stand alone release in a FC 60pin style only as far as I know, but it's like pulling teeth to find one.  And Sachen sold globally, sketchy as it was, even in the US, but finding hard concrete proof isn't likely to happen.  I doubt given the death grip of threat NOA had over retailers getting NES games, shorted, or cut off, no one would dare advertise it and that wasn't the decades of stupid mobile phone cameras to get easy evidence.  It's like the Watara Supervision, that was sold in the state, but easily finding ads for that isn't going to happen either.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Tanooki

[Ankos | 442]

35 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

It all started with nintendo of japan, right? Start there and the regions will define themselves.

That would include NOE, NOA, Samurai, Hyundai, Playtronic, Mattel, Bergsala, Bandai BV, and Spaco based on what Wikipedia says. Hopefully that is right. I do not see a name for what companies distributed it in Hong Kong and SE Asia. On the box for the Hong Kong Famicom there is a "Simon & Toys Company Limited" mentioned, so I guess they might have been the ones to distribute the NES there too

[fcgamer | 4,725]

46 minutes ago, Ankos said:

That would include NOE, NOA, Samurai, Hyundai, Playtronic, Mattel, Bergsala, Bandai BV, and Spaco based on what Wikipedia says. Hopefully that is right. I do not see a name for what companies distributed it in Hong Kong and SE Asia. On the box for the Hong Kong Famicom there is a "Simon & Toys Company Limited" mentioned, so I guess they might have been the ones to distribute the NES there too

Sampo, Sharp, etc.

[Ankos | 442]

4 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Sampo, Sharp, etc.

Did they do NES machines? I was just going for a list of NES ones since that's been the focus of the thread, excluding the Famicom ones

[fcgamer | 4,725]

45 minutes ago, Ankos said:

Did they do NES machines? I was just going for a list of NES ones since that's been the focus of the thread, excluding the Famicom ones

Just Famicom, but if we're starting at NoJ

[Code Monkey | 2,011]

20 hours ago, Khromak said:

OK guys, here's your question, were any/all of these games sold by an establishment paying rent for an enclosed, lockable space safe from the elements for which they have signed a lease and are paying taxes on all sales, and did their merchandise come directly from manufacturers?

1. Decathalon
2. Magic Jewelry
3. Cheetahmen II
4. Sachen games
5. HES games
6. NES Smurfs game with The Smurfs written in English on the front
7. Myriad 6-In-1
8. Hammerin' Harry NTSC (IMHO this one does not meet your criteria because the manufacturer is distributing them directly to customers and there are no store displays)

Hammerin' Harry - Limited Run Games has a physical store location now.

[Gloves | 11,783]

10 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

Hammerin' Harry - Limited Run Games has a physical store location now.

LRG has a physical location, sure, but was Hammerin' Harry ever sold from within those walls? Can you provide evidence of it being so?

[Code Monkey | 2,011]

4 minutes ago, Gloves said:

LRG has a physical location, sure, but was Hammerin' Harry ever sold from within those walls? Can you provide evidence of it being so?

I cannot.

[Gloves | 11,783]

16 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

I cannot.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Khromak | 768]

Abandon hope all ye who enter here.

I would seriously consider not using a retail tag. It's a complete mess. Allow users to put their own tags in and THEY can decide what's a retail game. This is not something you'll be able to nail down to an absolute science, and even if you do, someone will later come back and say the pictures you used as proof were promotional and the game never actually sold. Or someone will come up with new pictures of some game which was thought to be mail-in only, being sold in a store which meets your criteria. This is a moving target and not something easily verifiable, which has different meanings to different users, and which is always hotly debated.

[fcgamer | 4,725]

19 minutes ago, Khromak said:

Abandon hope all ye who enter here.

I would seriously consider not using a retail tag. It's a complete mess. Allow users to put their own tags in and THEY can decide what's a retail game. This is not something you'll be able to nail down to an absolute science, and even if you do, someone will later come back and say the pictures you used as proof were promotional and the game never actually sold. Or someone will come up with new pictures of some game which was thought to be mail-in only, being sold in a store which meets your criteria. This is a moving target and not something easily verifiable, which has different meanings to different users, and which is always hotly debated.

When I was a young, green programmer, one of the first things my professor told us was that users would try to input bogus data just to see how well the program was designed. How does this relate to the discussion at hand, one may ask? Please let me explain below.

There are certain titles that will be the first that anyone examines to see how they are classified in your APP or whatever it is you are designing. In my case, Videomation would be one of them, since it has both licensed and unlicensed releases. The Panesians would be another, since a few months back you were being quite rigid about the definition of retail, yet porn shops hardly seem to fit into your interpretation of retail and more than bodegas might. 

What I mean is that the way you handle such fringe cases is going to make or break the APP in the minds of the public, whether me, or anyone else on VGS, or any other forums. And in that way @Khromak has offered sagely advice, to dodge such problems from folks with varying agendas and perspectives.