What do you think should be done with this?

[Tabonga | 2,324]

I know I may be doing something in the wind here but let's try to keep this civil.

In 2006 a large brass eagle was salvaged from the Nazi heavy cruiser the "Graf Spee".  Since then there has been much debate as to who owns it and what to do with it.  The ownership was given to the Uruguayan government (in whose waters the ship was scuttled  in in 1939). 

A brief history of the Graf Spee - it was one of three heavy cruisers built by the Germans to circumvent the Treaty of Versailles.  They were overgunned with 11" guns and could outgun anything smaller than battle cruisers and battleships of the time - and those they could outrun.  They were built to be commerce raiders and were deliberately put at sea when the war started.  After causing much havoc three British cruisers fought a pitched battle with the Graf Spee and it withdrew to Montevideo.  The British let on that their cruisers were pretty much unscathed (the contrary was true) and said they were waiting for the Germans to leave the port (which they had to do under international law).  The German captain sailed the Graf Spee out of the harbor and scuttled it to avoid defeat/capture.

While I find the military history of WWII interesting I don't glorify the Nazis in any way.  But it would be a shame to destroy this  IMHO - I think a place should be found in a naval museum somewhere devoted to WWII history where it can be put on display with a proper perspective. 

But what would you do with it - I can fully understand the impulse to just get rid of the thing?

https://www.politico.eu/article/uruguay-wont-melt-bronze-nazi-eagle-into-dove-president/

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Tabonga

[Reed Rothchild | 9,551]

Put it in a museum and have a Winston Churchill fountain peeing on it

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

I say keep it. Destroying every piece of Nazi memorabilia would only be erasing what they did. 
 

I personally don’t know what to do with it as I have only learned about the holocaust from an amazing seventh grade teacher, who happened to be a jewish lesbian. So grateful for her lesson plan. 
 

maybe ask the holocaust museum what their idea might be? 
 

private nazi collections= weird racist crap

public nazi collections by people who have an emotional/personal/familial connection= history and education

[Tabonga | 2,324]

@ MrWunderful

You might find this informative - it is an episode of the famous BBC series "The World at War"  (which is worth watching in its entirety).  This episode is focused on the Holocaust and does better with the topic than most longer documentaries.

Jacob Bronowski's Ascent of Man series (another good one to watch) culminates in the final episode with a summation/tie in to the Holocaust.  Very sobering.

For what it is worth I also support keeping the remaining Nazi camps in place - if I ever visit Europe I want to visit at least a few of them.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Tabonga

[DefaultGen | 5,414]

“The Roman Coliseum was NOT destroyed because Christians were killed there”. I mean one is the architectural icon of a civilization that was used for centuries and the other is a piece of shipwreck from a short lived dictatorship. There’s enough nazi shit to melt one random hate symbol down as a publicity stunt.

[theirontoupee | 44]

Museum for sure

....or send it to get slabbed/graded

Edited June 22, 2023 by theirontoupee

[Tanooki | 4,940]

Eh, good enough timing for this to be used as it's on the nose.

I get the sentiment, but seems wrong and stupid to just destroy a piece of history just because the items is from the losing side of said history.

[fox | 1,668]

WWII museum in New Orleans has several sensitive items that are presented in the proper context.  Would be in good hands there.

[FireHazard51 | 2,047]

Not everything is worth saving.  Is the eagle statue of any significance on it's own?  Like did a famous sculpture make it.  Does it's making have a story behind it.  Is it a unique piece of work or is it 1 of dozen of copies of the same sculpture used on multiple ships.  Did the ship itself have any real significance?  Or is it more of a "cool story bro" and not REALLY a historic thing that is worth preserving.  Shit being old isn't good enough to make a call on if it's worth preserving.  A naval historian can tell you if it's truly a historic piece worth saving.

Maybe in a specific setting/museum it would make sense to save, restore, and show the public.  There just isn't enough information to make a call on to save it or to destroy it.  My gut is saying it really isn't "historically significant" and is more likely to be a "cool story bro" piece of history and that means there would be no real lost to history if the damn thing got melted down and used for a better purpose.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

28 minutes ago, DefaultGen said:

“The Roman Coliseum was NOT destroyed because Christians were killed there”. I mean one is the architectural icon of a civilization that was used for centuries and the other is a piece of shipwreck from a short lived dictatorship. There’s enough nazi shit to melt one random hate symbol down as a publicity stunt.

I see your point and agree to some extent. 
 

The other side of me says, Burn some nazi flags next time facists show up at a PTA meeting then. 
 

Leave the symbol of industrialized hatred, that required thousands of peoples’ and an entire cultures worth of infrastructure to commit genocide for the history books. 

[Jfreakofkorn | 282]

Seems to going to auction 

https://www.dw.com/en/uruguay-nazi-eagle-from-german-warship-wreck-must-be-sold-court-rules/a-49304180

Its a one of kind piece , thats for sure 

Construction cost of the warship was about 82 million Reichsmark . It was unique ship , in that it had eight diesel engines . Allowing the vessel to travel distances of up to 8,900 nautical miles at a constant speed of 20 knots .

and with new orleans , thats the last place you want to preserve something . They started the taking down statue(s) to pony up vote(s) . the lockbox that was preserved under robert e lee went missing . 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Jfreakofkorn

[FireHazard51 | 2,047]

You want to know more about this kind of shit then check out what experts in this field think on a very broad level to make calls on something being "historic" or not. Nominating Historic Vessels and Shipwrecks to the National Register of Historic Places (US Department of Interior - National Park Services)  That's right Smokey the Bear's department is in charge of making historical calls in the US.

[FireHazard51 | 2,047]

3 minutes ago, Jfreakofkorn said:

Seems to going to auction 

https://www.dw.com/en/uruguay-nazi-eagle-from-german-warship-wreck-must-be-sold-court-rules/a-49304180

Its a one of kind piece , thats for sure 

Construction cost of the warship was about 82 million Reichsmark . It was unique ship , in that it had eight diesel engines . Allowing the vessel to travel distances of up to 8,900 nautical miles at a constant speed of 20 knots .

and with new orleans , thats the last place you want to preserve something . They started the taking down statue(s) to pony up vote(s) . the lockbox that was preserved under robert e lee went missing . 

Monuments in very public places to honor traitors can go fuck right off into a corner of a confederate cemetery to be shit on by birds.

[Jfreakofkorn | 282]

How can you be racist aganist a race ?

Isnt it more of a term of being prejudice 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Jfreakofkorn

[FireHazard51 | 2,047]

22 minutes ago, Jfreakofkorn said:

How can you be racist aganist a race ?

Isnt it more of a term of being prejudice 

Racism is a form of prejudice that assumes that the members of racial categories have distinctive characteristics and that these differences result in some racial groups being inferior to others. Racism generally includes negative emotional reactions to members of the group, acceptance of negative stereotypes, and racial discrimination against individuals; in some cases it leads to violence.

Discrimination refers to the differential treatment of the members of different ethnic, religious, national, or other groups. Discrimination is usually the behavioral manifestation of prejudice and therefore involves negative, hostile, and injurious treatment of members of rejected groups.

Adapted from the APA Dictionary of Psychology

Yup, if you really want to dive into things like this then you don't pick up the Oxford Dictionary but you up the American Psychological Association's Dictionary.  There are whole text books on this subject.  It's an older addition but $5.07 you can't go wrong The Psychology of Prejudice and Discrimination

[Tabonga | 2,324]

31 minutes ago, FireHazard51 said:

Not everything is worth saving.  Is the eagle statue of any significance on it's own?  Like did a famous sculpture make it.  Does it's making have a story behind it.  Is it a unique piece of work or is it 1 of dozen of copies of the same sculpture used on multiple ships.  Did the ship itself have any real significance?  Or is it more of a "cool story bro" and not REALLY a historic thing that is worth preserving.  Shit being old isn't good enough to make a call on if it's worth preserving.  A naval historian can tell you if it's truly a historic piece worth saving.

Nazi eagles are likely a dime a dozen even today - but one that size with a specific provenance is another story.   It is probably unique or possibly one of three for the three pocket battleships.  The other two (if they existed) were likely destroyed when the sister ships were sunk in action.  This one only survived since the ship was scuttled in shallow water.

The Graf Spee is probably the third most famous of the German surface warships (after the Bismark and the Tirpitz) and was certainly a headache for the British - unless they salvage the anchor or ship's bell this is probably it for signifigant artifacts from the ship.  So the ship was important in history and a display explaining its part in the naval war would certainly be important to those with an interest in history.  

[The Count | 528]

I think that due to this particular piece's history and the unique story along with it and its provenance that it should be in a museum. Perhaps in Uruguay where it would have a local connection.