To people who swap PS2/PS3 cases to improve condition

[fcgamer | 4,723]

10 minutes ago, spacepup said:

I do agree with you that disclosure is helpful in avoiding conflict, if someone has made any sort of modifications to an item, wherever feasible.  For example, I don't like carts (personally) that have been filled in with marker (top edge corner of a SNES game), so I avoid purchasing those for my collection.  I would prefer people not do that, but ultimately I can't really stop anyone from doing so.

I also think there are varying levels to stuff like this.  I think physically altering an existing item (like coloring in an art label) is a bit more "intrusive" than say, swapping a PS2 case with one of the same type.  Others may disagree, I don't know.  I'm not the arbiter of the way everything should be in the video game collecting world, and no one is really.  

Yeah man, I'd definitely prefer coloured in labels to swapped cases, as I personally prefer authenticity to condition, a status that has been reached after collecting *true rares* over the years, where just getting an item is a feat in and if itself, so no one worries about mint BS.

Colouring labels, it's damage, sure, but the item is still all original, stock. Swapping parts, suddenly it's not all original, therefore it's inauthentic. So for people collecting 100% authentic items, it's a no-go.

If you're fine collecting 96% authentic items go for it, but don't try to claim it's 100% authentic.

[fcgamer | 4,723]

2 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

I don't understand why someone would collect fake games (bootlegs), but we all have our own interests. 

You are free to own DKC for Famicom cause that's your thing.

I'll own Metal Gear Solid 4 with a donated (identical) case from MLB The Show 08 cause that's my thing.

And as far as "squawking" goes... complaining isn't generally my style.  

You should lose the western-centric, rich white privilege bias, son. Well you should lose SNES too, but that's a different discussion.

[fcgamer | 4,723]

@Reed Rothchild : Also this seems to be lost on a lot of people, so I'll mention it - you do know I have half a set licensed SMDJ games, a more or less full set of FC games, one fifth set GGJ and SMSJ games, etc, right? In reality, an overwhelming portion of my collection is licensed

[Reed Rothchild | 9,528]

23 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

You should lose the western-centric, rich white privilege bias, son. Well you should lose SNES too, but that's a different discussion.

 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

29 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

 

Yes, I did...

Don't ruin my reputation, you know my dirty little secret

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

I've loosely followed this thread since it began, and honestly, I truly am at a loss as to what the scandal is really about.  While I will explain this statement further on (so don't fly off the handle and start rage typing just now), it really seems to solely be stemming from one or two individual collectors' anal retentiveness.

Now, if such changes cannot be detected by anyone once they're done...how is any harm being done?  If you are literally swapping the exact same type of mass produced plastic clamshell case (be it CD or DVD style, depending on the system) from one individual copy of a game to another, how is any sort of measurable, let alone irreparable, harm being done to anyone or anything in this sort of situation?

In the cases (ha ha) where the backs of cartridge based games have been swapped, sometimes there are tell tale signs (incorrect sticker on the back, internal support/design revision, time/date/QC/production line/etc. mark pressed into the label, color variations between front/back shells, etc.), I can understand and accept that something "wrong" has been done here (for those interested, I understand and mostly agree with folks who are against such practices in cases where a demonstrable difference can/will happen).  However, swapping the internal contents from one cracked up copy of Gran Turismo 2 to one that was only a case (or had ruined internal contents but pristine case) harms no one and does not in any way, shape, form, spirit, etc., fundamentally alter, invalidate, falsify, etc., the contents of that game.  One thing I'll point out is that I've never once seen the same folks carrying torches against swapping one identical clear(ish) plastic case for another decrying the folks who piece together increasingly complete copies of games that they've first obtained as incomplete (adding a manual to cart only, then a box, then inserts, etc., even though those things obviously didn't originate with that specific game media).

If anyone wants to get torn up about it, then do what others have done in the realm of cartridge back swapping--do the research, document everything, and prove your case.  However, please also be genuine, humble, etc., enough to admit if/when "variants" of certain titles come down the line which show/prove that certain games didn't always come with a particular clamshell case (such as when production lines run out of whatever part was initially being used and simply throw in whatever is available just to get the job done--sometimes maddening to die hard collectors, but perfectly normal and "gets-the-job-done" to manufacturers and those who just want to use the product).  Chances are, unless something is being handmade, if one example of an extremely mass produced product exists, many more will as well, however inconvenient this might be in allowing more folks to case swap games and have them still be considered accurate examples.

Just my $0.02.

[Hammerfestus | 3,846]

I‘m headed to my basement now to just randomly switch all the cases around on my PS2 games.  Thanks for the tip

[Gloves | 11,778]

19 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

I've loosely followed this thread since it began, and honestly, I truly am at a loss as to what the scandal is really about.  While I will explain this statement further on (so don't fly off the handle and start rage typing just now), it really seems to solely be stemming from one or two individual collectors' anal retentiveness.

Now, if such changes cannot be detected by anyone once they're done...how is any harm being done?  If you are literally swapping the exact same type of mass produced plastic clamshell case (be it CD or DVD style, depending on the system) from one individual copy of a game to another, how is any sort of measurable, let alone irreparable, harm being done to anyone or anything in this sort of situation?

In the cases (ha ha) where the backs of cartridge based games have been swapped, sometimes there are tell tale signs (incorrect sticker on the back, internal support/design revision, time/date/QC/production line/etc. mark pressed into the label, color variations between front/back shells, etc.), I can understand and accept that something "wrong" has been done here (for those interested, I understand and mostly agree with folks who are against such practices in cases where a demonstrable difference can/will happen).  However, swapping the internal contents from one cracked up copy of Gran Turismo 2 to one that was only a case (or had ruined internal contents but pristine case) harms no one and does not in any way, shape, form, spirit, etc., fundamentally alter, invalidate, falsify, etc., the contents of that game.  One thing I'll point out is that I've never once seen the same folks carrying torches against swapping one identical clear(ish) plastic case for another decrying the folks who piece together increasingly complete copies of games that they've first obtained as incomplete (adding a manual to cart only, then a box, then inserts, etc., even though those things obviously didn't originate with that specific game media).

If anyone wants to get torn up about it, then do what others have done in the realm of cartridge back swapping--do the research, document everything, and prove your case.  However, please also be genuine, humble, etc., enough to admit if/when "variants" of certain titles come down the line which show/prove that certain games didn't always come with a particular clamshell case (such as when production lines run out of whatever part was initially being used and simply throw in whatever is available just to get the job done--sometimes maddening to die hard collectors, but perfectly normal and "gets-the-job-done" to manufacturers and those who just want to use the product).  Chances are, unless something is being handmade, if one example of an extremely mass produced product exists, many more will as well, however inconvenient this might be in allowing more folks to case swap games and have them still be considered accurate examples.

Just my $0.02.

With PS2 at the very least (as with other similar cases, e.g. PS3, blu ray, etc.), there's a glaring issue - if the case is in a bad way, chances are fair that so too is the cover art. I've seen plenty of pristine cases hiding a damaged cover art slip.

The most common issue is indents where there are holes in the case; the manual holders on the front are particularly bad, and the back of the case commonly will have an indent where the disc holding piece is. The indents on the front happen a lot because they'll be in a game store that puts their price stickers right in that spot; GameStop is egregious with this and their older stickers which were very difficult to remove without Goo Gone or similar, which means a lot of cases have an indent from people picking at the case to get the sticker off.

[TDIRunner | 2,739]

I can say with absolute certainty is that throwing a game away because it might have been swapped (whether case or cartridge) if far more damaging to the hobby than the swap itself.  

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

28 minutes ago, Gloves said:

With PS2 at the very least (as with other similar cases, e.g. PS3, blu ray, etc.), there's a glaring issue - if the case is in a bad way, chances are fair that so too is the cover art. I've seen plenty of pristine cases hiding a damaged cover art slip.

The most common issue is indents where there are holes in the case; the manual holders on the front are particularly bad, and the back of the case commonly will have an indent where the disc holding piece is. The indents on the front happen a lot because they'll be in a game store that puts their price stickers right in that spot; GameStop is egregious with this and their older stickers which were very difficult to remove without Goo Gone or similar, which means a lot of cases have an indent from people picking at the case to get the sticker off.

I'm in no way saying there aren't perfectly valid and/or "necessary" reasons for doing it, and you've nailed a very common example.  While GameStop has pretty much always placed their stickers in that location on such cases, I will say that back when that stuff was new(er), it wasn't nearly such an issue to get stickers off the cases.  I would know, as I used to work right next door to a GameStop and would frequently pick up low priced, odd/weird games out of boredem then spend 20-30 minutes when I got home working the sticker free, then using that same sticker to slowly pull all of the remaining adhesive off the plastic.  That being said, stuff that had sat for an extremely long time tended to be hit or miss on releasing easily, and cases that were more exposed to sunlight (stuff that came from outside of my local mall, which had actual outward facing windows, for example) could also be problematic due to the elasticity in the clear cover plastic lessening over time; combine that with a particularly tough sticker, and you end up with weird stretches, dings, dents, etc., where that label once was.

But again, for the most part, if you are (or were) swapping the case from one game to another and using the same title, nobody would ever know except you.  If you were doing it from game to game, all you'd have to do is to pay attention to all the details on the case (memory card slot or not, single or double disc case, etc.) and you could still do a swap that would make zero difference and be undetectable to anyone who wasn't in the room at the time or that you didn't tell about it.  I just don't see what all the kerfluffle is about beyond some folks seemingly wanting an excuse for their nose to be out of joint. 

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

14 minutes ago, TDIRunner said:

I can say with absolute certainty is that throwing a game away because it might have been swapped (whether case or cartridge) if far more damaging to the hobby than the swap itself.  

If it's cone carefully and properly, nobody would ever know, so I guess anyone that concerned about it might as well just go ahead and give away every bit of their collection that they didn't open brand new and never leave another person alone in the room with (since they could swap things while you were out!).

[Reed Rothchild | 9,528]

16 minutes ago, TDIRunner said:

I can say with absolute certainty is that throwing a game away because it might have been swapped (whether case or cartridge) if far more damaging to the hobby than the swap itself.  

Well you should be taken out and shot for saying that!

Joking, obviously

[Gloves | 11,778]

2 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

I'm in no way saying there aren't perfectly valid and/or "necessary" reasons for doing it, and you've nailed a very common example.  While GameStop has pretty much always placed their stickers in that location on such cases, I will say that back when that stuff was new(er), it wasn't nearly such an issue to get stickers off the cases.  I would know, as I used to work right next door to a GameStop and would frequently pick up low priced, odd/weird games out of boredem then spend 20-30 minutes when I got home working the sticker free, then using that same sticker to slowly pull all of the remaining adhesive off the plastic.  That being said, stuff that had sat for an extremely long time tended to be hit or miss on releasing easily, and cases that were more exposed to sunlight (stuff that came from outside of my local mall, which had actual outward facing windows, for example) could also be problematic due to the elasticity in the clear cover plastic lessening over time; combine that with a particularly tough sticker, and you end up with weird stretches, dings, dents, etc., where that label once was.

But again, for the most part, if you are (or were) swapping the case from one game to another and using the same title, nobody would ever know except you.  If you were doing it from game to game, all you'd have to do is to pay attention to all the details on the case (memory card slot or not, single or double disc case, etc.) and you could still do a swap that would make zero difference and be undetectable to anyone who wasn't in the room at the time or that you didn't tell about it.  I just don't see what all the kerfluffle is about beyond some folks seemingly wanting an excuse for their nose to be out of joint. 

I have no issue with people paying attention to those details, but it's undeniable that those are the exception and not the rule. We here are generally pretty respectful of our games, but some folks less so. A fair few "CIB" copies have been frankensteined together across all generations, and there are plenty of examples of mismatched parts. The further we get from sealed copies being opened up to verify, the harder it will be to validate original internals.

It's really not the end of the world, but to imply that most people are paying as much attention to specifics and being true to the original pieces as we do is folly IMO.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

12 minutes ago, Gloves said:

I have no issue with people paying attention to those details, but it's undeniable that those are the exception and not the rule. We here are generally pretty respectful of our games, but some folks less so. A fair few "CIB" copies have been frankensteined together across all generations, and there are plenty of examples of mismatched parts. The further we get from sealed copies being opened up to verify, the harder it will be to validate original internals.

It's really not the end of the world, but to imply that most people are paying as much attention to specifics and being true to the original pieces as we do is folly IMO.

Oh, absolutely, and hence my statement that if those folks want to get as bent out of shape about it as they do, they should start creating the database that documents what games had which cases, as that's really the only way to have any real idea whether they're right in their concerns or not, and help guide them when adding non sealed items to their collections.  Basically put up or shut up, but more polite. 

[Gloves | 11,778]

8 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Oh, absolutely, and hence my statement that if those folks want to get as bent out of shape about it as they do, they should start creating the database that documents what games had which cases, as that's really the only way to have any real idea whether they're right in their concerns or not, and help guide them when adding non sealed items to their collections.  Basically put up or shut up, but more polite. 

Heh, fair. I've considered that in the past but it's an insane undertaking.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

3 minutes ago, Gloves said:

Heh, fair. I've considered that in the past but it's an insane undertaking.

Definitely, but I hadn't noticed you making far reaching, blanket statements about the practice or the people who follow it.  My initial reply was really toward those who are so bothered by the idea that it's incredibly easy to picture them grabbing practitioners by the head and shaking them violently while screaming, "WHHHHYYYYYYY?!?!?" at the top of their lungs, lol.  I don't like seeing badly Frankensteined things myself, so I get where the basic idea those folks are operating on is coming from, but not the vehemence, as the vast majority of swapping going on is undetected, and undetctable, even to the most ardent of collecters.  The ones where somebody swapped a 1986 3 screw NES case back onto a Dino Peak and called it a day are by far the exception, rather than the rule.  One would think that since all the hand wringing in the world won't stop people from swapping stuff to upgrade their copies, it would be in those folks' best interest to educate everyone on what swaps are appropriate and which aren't so as to further minimize the number of "disaster" Frankensteins seen (since the well done ones are functionally and production-wise, identical).

[Ankos | 439]

3 hours ago, Reed Rothchild said:

I don't understand why someone would collect fake games (bootlegs), but we all have our own interests.

The same reason why people collect licensed games or dead bugs, it's fun. Like all collectibles you still have to have rules and standards when it comes to collecting pirate carts and bootlegs, but some of those are pretty interesting. If you can point to a game on a shelf and tell a story about it, then I'd say it has more value than a game you can't do that for, not monetarily but just in terms of general intrigue

[LifeGame | 760]

1 hour ago, Ankos said:

The same reason why people collect licensed games or dead bugs, it's fun. Like all collectibles you still have to have rules and standards when it comes to collecting pirate carts and bootlegs, but some of those are pretty interesting. If you can point to a game on a shelf and tell a story about it, then I'd say it has more value than a game you can't do that for, not monetarily but just in terms of general intrigue

Funny you post that, i went to the local Insectarium yesterday.

[Ankos | 439]

Those are some nice looking bugs. Maybe they'd look nicer if they were moved into giant PS2 cases

[Strange | 1,700]

I used to be an entomologist/plant pathologist/molecular biologist, don’t make me post my insect pics lmao

[Gloves | 11,778]

20 minutes ago, Strange said:

I used to be an entomologist/plant pathologist/molecular biologist, don’t make me post my insect pics lmao

You used to bee somethin'!

[fcgamer | 4,723]

3 hours ago, darkchylde28 said:

Definitely, but I hadn't noticed you making far reaching, blanket statements about the practice or the people who follow it.  My initial reply was really toward those who are so bothered by the idea that it's incredibly easy to picture them grabbing practitioners by the head and shaking them violently while screaming, "WHHHHYYYYYYY?!?!?" at the top of their lungs, lol.  I don't like seeing badly Frankensteined things myself, so I get where the basic idea those folks are operating on is coming from, but not the vehemence, as the vast majority of swapping going on is undetected, and undetctable, even to the most ardent of collecters.  The ones where somebody swapped a 1986 3 screw NES case back onto a Dino Peak and called it a day are by far the exception, rather than the rule.  One would think that since all the hand wringing in the world won't stop people from swapping stuff to upgrade their copies, it would be in those folks' best interest to educate everyone on what swaps are appropriate and which aren't so as to further minimize the number of "disaster" Frankensteins seen (since the well done ones are functionally and production-wise, identical).

But, but...with Dino Peak swapping, you can instantly obtain a USA NTSC release cart for a fraction of the price. And it's technically authentic, by what everyone here is saying 

[Tyree_Cooper | 755]

i just wanted to remind you that even those black amaray cases you have thoroughly checked and are convinced are the same, are actually not because of the manual hinge. so if you stack the same PS2 football game, you have most likely swapped the wrong case, unless you have checked the manual hinge. which is no big deal, and usually barely noticeable unless you use a game that had an extremely thick or extremely thin manual. most are in between.

since nobody ever mentioned this, in like, the last 20 years (hopefully some of you guys knew this from your own experience)

of course i forgot to mention koei games with holo stickers on the back of the insert and inside the case. you shall not swap those. and don't try to remove the stickers, you will screw them up (been there done that)

[AirVillain | 489]

On 9/6/2022 at 10:05 AM, CasualCart said:

Hahaha, awesome. Well done. I was being sarcastic with the request for you do draw something, yet you have outdone yourself yet again. Well done and thank you. 



Regarding the OP and subsequent discussion....

I think it's a good heads up and good lesson for the rest of us that not all cases are created equal.

Personally, I always view this type of discussion from an NES/SNES standpoint because they're my top systems. 

Swapping backs is not cool for me. And you can just GTFO if you're talking about a replacement sticker. REPLACEMENT STICKER? What are we doing here?

Anything that is "restoring" a game with new/different parts to pass it off as original doesn't make any sense to me. If a cartridge functions, but has a jacked up back, what does it matter? 

If you're a "real collector" and want everything in good shape, wouldn't you want it to be original as well?

The only chance you're going to get to replace a back properly is to use the same exact game and make sure it has the same codes/back label. 

If your shell is busted to shit and you need a new shell for it, then I don't mind the suggestions of putting the board into a COLOURED cart with a NEW/different label. Then there's absolutely NO CONFUSION about the cart not being authentic. I'd also keep the busted shell along with it for future reference.

EVERYBODY MAKING THE "It's your/my collection so (I'll) do whatever you want" ARGUMENT IS FUNDAMENTALLY INCORRECT WHEN IT COMES TO "COLLECTING" AS A WHOLE.

I know that might ruffle some feathers, but here's what I mean...... 

Once an item leaves our possession (which it WILL HAVE TO at some point) will the next person be able to tell if it is authentic/"real"?

If they can't, then we fucked up. 

Once all these repros and frankencarts hit the open market, and in the hands of people who don't have the knowledge and experience like us to check the games, it's going to be a gong show and we'll have to open up the most basic of carts. 

For someone just getting into PS2 collecting for example, that would be fucking hell trying to make sure all the cases were legit and what about when you buy a lot from some jerk off who has swapped out all the cases on the expensive games? 

Edited September 7, 2022 by AirVillain
spelling...

[DefaultGen | 5,405]

I think lots of CIB stuff is a disaster and we collectively just don't know enough to care. There are PCB variants on otherwise identical cartridges that only pair with boxes from certain timeframes. There are minor codes and markings on cases, manuals, inserts, and discs that are unknown and undocumented from all eras that are swapped around for component upgrades all the time making "incorrect" copies. Modern CD jewel cases can look identical today, but are made of lighter/thinner plastic and aren't a replacement for say a heavy 90s Sony jewel case. There are black NES dust sleeve and styrofoam variants for complete psychopaths. The more I learn about variants, the more swapping almost anything is likely to pair incorrectly. There are components that look identical, but have different weights, it's nuts.

Depending on how much things bother you, you just have to get everything sealed at some point. Personally I can live with a WRONG block of NES styrofoam or Saturn foam insert because life is too short sometimes. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by DefaultGen