Game Debate #97: Castlevania Symphony of the Night

[Gloves | 11,794]

3 hours ago, wongojack said:

Yeah, it doesn't quite match, but I like whole numbers in these sorts of things.

3 is a whole number...

[NostalgicMachine | 238]

SoTN is one of my favorite games to this day. A well-deserved 10/10!

[wongojack | 217]

12 hours ago, Gloves said:

3 is a whole number...

That's up for debate.  I'm sticking with 4 and 6 this time.  Much safer.

[Sumez | 2,967]

19 hours ago, NostalgicMachine said:

SoTN is one of my favorite games to this day. A well-deserved 10/10!

Agreed. Or 2/5 on a 5 scale. 

Btw Wongo I think I know what you meant, I just found it funny

Edited January 5 by Sumez

[GPX | 1,370]

It’s a definite 10/10 with this game. Instantly playable, totally memorable and a ton of replayability. 
When you can enjoy a game so much and you keep coming back for more, then that’s a winning formula in my book!

[koifish | 556]

It's not bad, but not great either. Cardinal sin is that it's way too easy (you have to make your own difficulty) and it gets boring long before its over (I quit before even getting to the upside down castle). Meaningless padding of a billion items and abilities that you'll never use is novel for replays and detritus otherwise.

Great music and art though, and if you suck at games then you can just grind until you win, a great boon to hack journalists and internet game reviewers. I'll give it a 7/10; If you suck at platformers then this is the one for you!

The soundtrack is 11/10 though; Download that and listen to it a lot. In fact, download every CV soundtrack.

EDIT: Changed my mind. 6/10

 

On 4/15/2022 at 8:01 AM, fcgamer said:

Oh and the guy who never played it and never will, will you go out with me for beers or something?

Let me know when you're in Seattle and I'll take you up on that!

 

On 4/16/2022 at 4:31 PM, Reed Rothchild said:

The two usual miscreants  

Your ebay notification is showing. XYZ

Edited January 22 by koifish

[koifish | 556]

On 4/19/2022 at 9:03 AM, phart010 said:

The inverted castle was an afterthought. It’s an unpolished bonus. Take it or leave it

People always yell at me when I say this about Kanto in Pokemon Gold/Silver.

[GPX | 1,370]

1 hour ago, koifish said:

It's not bad, but not great either. Cardinal sin is that it's way too easy (you have to make your own difficulty) and it gets boring long before its over (I quit before even getting to the upside down castle). Meaningless padding of a billion items and abilities that you'll never use is novel for replays and detritus otherwise.

Great music and art though, and if you suck at games then you can just grind until you win, a great boon to hack journalists and internet game reviewers. I'll give it a 7/10; If you suck at platformers then this is the one for you!

The soundtrack is 11/10 though; Download that and listen to it a lot. In fact, download every CV soundtrack.

EDIT: Changed my mind. 6/10

 

Let me know when you're in Seattle and I'll take you up on that!

 

Your ebay notification is showing. XYZ

I feel this is a post for giggles more than serious. 6/10? Considering you really liked the music, the atmosphere, and didn’t complain about the games main content. The heavy-loaded inventory is a bonus, really. Players can opt to bypass collecting the non-essentials and there is certainly a solid core game in there. 

Personally I didn’t care about the inventory as much, but loved the character supports (familiars) and how they can be powered up while you power up. I loved to see how those familiars change over the course of levelling up. It’s almost like there’s a 3rd genre of “Pokémon games” within the main Metroidvania theme.

Don’t get me wrong, any score is up to you, it just feels that your end score doesn’t quite correlate with your comments.

 

 

[koifish | 556]

On 1/22/2024 at 3:08 PM, GPX said:

Don’t get me wrong, any score is up to you, it just feels that your end score doesn’t quite correlate with your comments.

Part of it is the wording for the polls. I would give batman for nes a 10 personally, but would never say "everyone should play it". It's not a foundational game. It's still great though, so I give it 8.

In this case, symphony isn't a bad game, just a boring game. Too easy is a cardinal sin for my gaming needs. Having to make the game hard for yourself on purpose is more often than not a failure on the devs.

That said, I did play a while and I might enjoy playing it again or on occasion, so 6 text speaks to me.

Music is my other most important part of a game. There are plenty of games where the only part I like the soundtrack (ie. FF7). I won't rate boring games highly just because the music is good however. Just mentioning because symphony is a great soundtrack. Yamane also did my favorite CV, Bloodlines, so there's a little extra bias there.

Anything that isn't gameplay won't change my opinion 99% of the time. Great atmosphere /music/you name it is meaningless if the game is bad. When I want a story I read a book. When I want visuals I go to a museum, or to a park, or to a movie. When I want music I put on an album. When I want to play I boot up a game. If the game is dull then why am I here? I can get story/etc by watching someone else play it instead.

Edited January 24 by koifish
explains further

[Reed Rothchild | 9,548]

25 minutes ago, koifish said:

Part of it is the wording for the polls. I would give batman for nes a 10 personally, but would never say "everyone should play it". It's not a foundational game. It's still great though, so I give it 8.

Interesting thought process.  Everyone should play the "foundational" games as opposed to the games you personally find to be great, is what I'm gathering.

I'm of the opinion that people should play BOTH, but obviously time is a limited resource.

[DefaultGen | 5,413]

SOTN is a foundational game! We wouldn't be forced to deal with the term """Metroidvania""" without it, and you're not going to tell me anyone would ever say that if only Simon's Quest existed. 10/10 by default.

Edited January 24 by DefaultGen

[koifish | 556]

1 hour ago, DefaultGen said:

SOTN is a foundational game! We wouldn't be forced to deal with the term """Metroidvania""" without it, and you're not going to tell me anyone would ever say that if only Simon's Quest existed. 10/10 by default.

Ha ha, got me there! Hm, a good point. Am I judging these games historically or by my own feelings? Maybe everyone should play Batman after all.

Also, you raise a good point. Any game that led to "metroidvania" existing definitely deserves a 6.

[GPX | 1,370]

19 hours ago, koifish said:

Part of it is the wording for the polls. I would give batman for nes a 10 personally, but would never say "everyone should play it". It's not a foundational game. It's still great though, so I give it 8.

In this case, symphony isn't a bad game, just a boring game. Too easy is a cardinal sin for my gaming needs. Having to make the game hard for yourself on purpose is more often than not a failure on the devs.

That said, I did play a while and I might enjoy playing it again or on occasion, so 6 text speaks to me.

Music is my other most important part of a game. There are plenty of games where the only part I like the soundtrack (ie. FF7). I won't rate boring games highly just because the music is good however. Just mentioning because symphony is a great soundtrack. Yamane also did my favorite CV, Bloodlines, so there's a little extra bias there.

Anything that isn't gameplay won't change my opinion 99% of the time. Great atmosphere /music/you name it is meaningless if the game is bad. When I want a story I read a book. When I want visuals I go to a museum, or to a park, or to a movie. When I want music I put on an album. When I want to play I boot up a game. If the game is dull then why am I here? I can get story/etc by watching someone else play it instead.

It’s interesting how you think the game is dull when it has so much going on, and more stuff to do than any other 2D-Castlevania in existence at the time it had came out, and even in the following decade after it. 

I don’t want to argue further with the scores, just curious what you think is a better representation of a 2D-Castlevania? 

[TDIRunner | 2,744]

22 hours ago, koifish said:

Too easy is a cardinal sin for my gaming needs.

I'm genuinely curious.  Was the game too easy the first time you played it?  Did you know where all the hidden items were on your first playthrough without a guide?  Did you know exactly where to go, or did you have to explore?  Did you beat every boss on your first try?  Sometimes a game is easy because you've played it so many times and mastered it.  By that definition, Super Metroid is "too easy" because I can play it with my eyes closed and beat it in around two hours.  But that doesn't mean the game was easy the first time I picked it up.  A game shouldn't be penalized because it becomes easier over time.  

[wongojack | 217]

I just played the game for the first time last month (my comments are on the previous page).  I agree that it was way too easy to actually be considered much fun.  I mean, the first 20-25% were fun, but then it just devolved into completing the map enough so I could say I got the best ending.

[Brickman | 3,994]

I never voted in this one for some reason, but a 10 is where I would have landed. I probably like Aria of Sorrow/Dawn of Sorrow a little bit more but all three are excellent.

It also helped give us the great genre Metroidvania and the term Metroidvania.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,548]

58 minutes ago, Brickman said:

I never voted in this one for some reason, but a 10 is where I would have landed. I probably like Aria of Sorrow/Dawn of Sorrow a little bit more but all three are excellent.

It also helped give us the great genre Metroidvania and the term Metroidvania.

That's too many 10s!

(kidding,kidding)

[Brickman | 3,994]

11 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

That's too many 10s!

(kidding,kidding)

I’m like the Oprah of 10’s!  

I reckon I’ve got some 10’s coming up for my backlog challenge (unless the games manage to somehow drop the ball at the finish line) which is a relief after the awful start to the year. Thought it was going to be a mediocre year for me.

[GPX | 1,370]

On 1/25/2024 at 5:31 AM, DefaultGen said:

SOTN is a foundational game! We wouldn't be forced to deal with the term """Metroidvania""" without it, and you're not going to tell me anyone would ever say that if only Simon's Quest existed. 10/10 by default.

SOTN is 100% a foundational game. I struggle to recall a game quite like it at the time when it had came out. It added genuine RPG elements to the Metroid theme, but you get to play with whips and swords.

[Gentlegamer | 174]

14 hours ago, GPX said:

SOTN is 100% a foundational game. I struggle to recall a game quite like it at the time when it had came out. It added genuine RPG elements to the Metroid theme, but you get to play with whips and swords.

Wonder Boy III - The Dragon's Trap

Zelda II - The Adventure of Link

The Battle of Olympus

Edited January 26 by Gentlegamer

[Reed Rothchild | 9,548]

15 minutes ago, Gentlegamer said:

Wonder Boy III - The Dragon's Trap

Zelda II - The Adventure of Link

The Battle of Olympus

Would you say Doom is a foundational game?

[koifish | 556]

On 1/25/2024 at 8:35 AM, TDIRunner said:

I'm genuinely curious.  Was the game too easy the first time you played it?  Did you know where all the hidden items were on your first playthrough without a guide?  Did you know exactly where to go, or did you have to explore?  Did you beat every boss on your first try?  Sometimes a game is easy because you've played it so many times and mastered it.  By that definition, Super Metroid is "too easy" because I can play it with my eyes closed and beat it in around two hours.  But that doesn't mean the game was easy the first time I picked it up.  A game shouldn't be penalized because it becomes easier over time.  

Only ever played it once, so I'd say no, it was just easy all along. IIRC I played and beat CV1 around 2007-2008 and then played Symphony a year later, so my perception of difficulty is likely very different from others when they played symphony.

Incidentally, I downloaded and played Symphony again, yesterday, for the first time since 2009 probably, and it's still way too easy. That said, going naked is proving to be kind of fun. You don't steamroll everything and punching things to death has comedic value. I might play a bit more, but not confident it would raise my score. It's as @wongojack points out, usually I play symphony and its clones but get bored because they become trivial hallway mapping sims. Is there a mode where you don't get levels? That might be more fun. Then again, I got bored of hollow knight because I thought the game wasn't hard, just heavy on damage sponges. Symphony with no levels would probably be similar. 

On 1/25/2024 at 6:22 AM, GPX said:

It’s interesting how you think the game is dull when it has so much going on, and more stuff to do than any other 2D-Castlevania in existence at the time it had came out, and even in the following decade after it. 

I don’t want to argue further with the scores, just curious what you think is a better representation of a 2D-Castlevania? 

I like most pre-Symphony castlevania games, but if I had to pick one then it'd be Bloodlines, no contest. It's short and sweet, a really top-quality action game, which you can tell was made by real professionals. Controls are tight, player movement is smooth and flexible without being forgiving, and the obstacles are tough but can be learned, yet they also aren't just rote memorization and reproduction. Add to it that the levels are each unique and well-paced without being too long, and the amazing soundtrack, and you get an incredible game, finished with visuals and sound effects that are icing on top of a perfect cake.

I think the length is a key point of difference between us here. I'd rather have a tightly crafted action game that's only an hour long but which pushes me for that entire hour, than slog through a long, drawn-out game whose only real challenge is how much time I have to waste. "So much going on" is meaningless when none of it is memorable or engaging. Note above how I played CV1 and Symphony at around the same time. I can remember some parts of symphony visually, and I definitely remember the soundtrack, but nothing really sticks out that is truly memorable and notable. Compare that to CV1, where I still can flash a warm smile at how good it felt to finally beat death and his bullshit level 5. I feel that the Quantity/Quality metric really shows itself here. Symphony clearly put the former above the latter, and was hurt for it. Who cares if there's more stuff to do if none of it is interesting? A pile of good baby toys has "more stuff to do" than does one good book, but I wouldn't choose the toys.

Ultimately symphony is just a fundamental break from what I like about castlevania and so I have little reason to personally rate it highly. Like Peter Gabriel Genesis and Phil Collins Genesis, old and new castlevania share little besides their name and certain characters/trademarks.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,548]

I see you @RegularGuyGamer.  You should elaborate 

[koifish | 556]

19 minutes ago, Gentlegamer said:

Wonder Boy III - The Dragon's Trap

Zelda II - The Adventure of Link

The Battle of Olympus

Those games too were built upon even older Falcom RPGs. Xanadu and Sorcerian off the top of my head. On the topic of Zelda 2, one of Nintendo's dirty secrets, I've found, is that some of their big games are heavily influenced by other, earlier games, that happened to not make it out of Japan. To suggest Nintendo didn't make substantial QoL changes or innovations of their own would be disingenuous, but it certainly opens one's eyes to look at the Japanese perspective and to know what we never saw (Thexder really sticks out as an example, regarding Metroid as an inheritor).

I don't really care for symphony but I'd still call it a foundational game that everyone should play at least once. It's like talking about the beatles for rock music. Anyone with any knowledge of rock and roll knows that the beatles didn't invent the genre, but then who would say you shouldn't listen to the beatles as a foundational entity in rock and roll history? My point isn't to downplay the existence of similar games but rather to acknowledge a more harmonious way of looking at things, realizing that being the very first doesn't mean all that much and that making a really slick, well-realized version of the concept that many people enjoy is itself a major feat that can make for a foundational title. Let's be honest and recognize that countless games like Symphony would not exist were it not for Symphony (and in turn, let's note that Igarashi said he was trying to make a game like Zelda, not Metroid, when he made Symphony. Better rename the genre to Zeldavania).

[Gentlegamer | 174]

28 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Would you say Doom is a foundational game?

DOOM is the foundation of the DOOM clone genre.