Survey Regarding the Potential of a New Video Game Grader in the Market

[JVOSS | 1,762]

Just now, VideoGameGradersLLC said:

I’ve discussed my experience in this post, a few times. If this doesn’t satisfy you I understand I won’t be expecting you to submit games to us. 

i hope is that no one submits game boy games.

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

Just now, JVOSS said:

you have no experience to show or speak of.

what is your back ground aside form seeing wata make $100,000's on an over hyped, over graded, sealed game.

Seems you have anger around WATA and grading in general which is fine. 

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

Just now, JVOSS said:

i hope is that no one submits game boy games.

Just to us or to any grading company? Either way it’s too late. 

[JVOSS | 1,762]

lol so you already screw them.  i have reserved my debate for your company since day one and have see you get data from the community you say you want to help just like others in the field.  be original and provide us with data and have it verified then ask our thought!!!!!

i hope you paid them to grade their games.  and not the other way around. 

[JVOSS | 1,762]

guess that was the end of that debate. 

Edited January 6, 2022 by JVOSS

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

2 minutes ago, JVOSS said:

guess that was it end of that debate. 

You lost me. Nor did you answer my question. But it’s all good. Doesn’t seem to me you’ve reserved judgment at all, you have passed it rather aggressively and negatively. But as I said, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. 

[JVOSS | 1,762]

the question about

32 minutes ago, VideoGameGradersLLC said:

Just to us or to any grading company? Either way it’s too late. 

this one?     i don't care ether way just grading companies stop giving false data and screwing clients.

 

now answer the ones you avoid from me.

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

2 minutes ago, JVOSS said:

the question about

this one?     i don't care ether way just grading companies stop giving false data and screwing clients.

 

now answer the ones you avoid from me.

You are clearly anti-grading, period. So that’s fine, many are not. You asked my experience, which I have answered multiple times in this thread. 

[JVOSS | 1,762]

and where is your game boy data from?

[JVOSS | 1,762]

34 minutes ago, VideoGameGradersLLC said:

You are clearly anti-grading, period. So that’s fine, many are not. You asked my experience, which I have answered multiple times in this thread. 

not anti grading and fake data.  your group cares little to the data just to what they can get out of people.

example what is the different of a v1 gb sml and a v7 gg sml box? cart? manual?

[inasuma | 1,205]

Done beating the dead horse yet, JVOSS?

[JVOSS | 1,762]

30 minutes ago, inasuma said:

Done beating the dead horse yet, JVOSS?

nah,  he gave up.  he still can answer hard questions.  and the sad thing is people pay for their opinion on data they make up or have no clue. 

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

8 hours ago, JVOSS said:

nah,  he gave up. 

No, I had dinner and spent the evening with my family. 

The thing about this hobby, what is fact and is, as you say, fake info or made up, is that little is truly definitive.  The hobby (as with many hobbies) has come to accept certain things as believed to be and accepted as correct and accurate.  This forum alone has millions of words proving this point - every week there is a new post with a new variation that makes everyone question where it fits in the order of things, was that before this or after that?  Is this a rare previously unknown first version or a previously unknown late reprint?  And then even if you figure that out what does it mean? Is earlier always more desirable?  Is more rare even make it "better" or more desirable? No, it does not.  As I often do and frequently suggest since it's a much longer much more established comparison, look to the sports card industry. 52 Topps Mantle vs 51 Bowman Mantle.  The 52 is widely considered one of the great cards in the hobby, when you debate the Mount Rushmore of baseball cards, even more broadly, sports cards the 52 Topps Mickey Mantle is rarely argued against, an easier answer nearly all agree on.  Sure the 3rd and 4th spots are often argued, there are good cases for many cards but the 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle is THE card for a vast majority of card collector's.  But wait, it's not even his rookie card.  A full year earlier Bowman produced the first ever Mickey Mantle card - shouldn't it automatically be more desirable, more popular, "better"?  Well, no.  For a variety of factors (which I won't go into as I've already spent too many words on it) the market (I'll come back to this) has decided the 52 is more valuable (at least for now, at least for the last 70 years).  It's this concept, the concept of the market deciding that bothers collector's like you, like many on this forum.  True grassroots collectors, enthusiasts, and in the absolutely best sense - nerds of the hobby don't like that they don't decide what is fact, what matters, what is desirable and most importantly what is valuable - the market does that and the market is not entirely, or even close to a majority (thank goodness) made up of these collectors.  The market is made up of people who look at it VERY differently.  They want Mario because they played Mario, they played HOURS and HOURS of Tetris and Mike Tyson's punch-out, Donkey Kong, Zelda, etc...etc...etc.... They didn't play Clu Clu Land, Little Samson, Stadium Events, Insert Your Favorite "Rare" game here.  They don't care about ROM codes or oddball variations.  They like Mario.  

Should they care about other things, maybe.  Will they someday, maybe.  Do they today, not most of them, no.

So the thing about your questions and your doubt of our knowledge - that's fair, we're new, we're unknown (but it should be acknowledged that not every collector or every person with the knowledge in the universe is on this forum all day every day for the last forever years).  And I hesitate to use a sports analogy in this group but think about the NCAA Basketball Tournament - March Madness.  People analysis the 68 teams and look at regions as this is the toughest, this is the easiest, this field is really loaded this year, my team got a terrible draw, look at all the hard teams in my team's region, etc... But here's the thing for any given team - you don't have to beat everybody to win a championship, you just have to beat the 6 (or 7 if there's a real Cinderella story) you play.  Does our team know every single thing about every single variant of every single game on every single platform ever made?  No.  No one does (despite some believing they do, and again I point to weekly posts throughout this form that this hobby is still learning about itself) and we don't have to.  We only need to know about the games we are grading.  And unfortunately we aren't yet big enough for this to mean every single game, ever made.

Of course we understand the difference between codes with no number after them vs -1, -2, etc... and that games, boxes and manuals don't always match exactly - another long running debate in this hobby where you want people to have definitive facts that simply don't exist - but that in most cases an early code game and manual will not be in a Player's Choice box.  Yes we know there are variations of Game Boy / Game Link labels.  And we will handle this as we handle all these same issues with NES games, if CIBs are truly mismatched we will indicate as such on labels but more importantly we are transparent about what is in a CIB we have graded through pre-grading photos, you (or a future buyer) can see EXACTLY what is inside the box and we take care to put details about the box flaps, manual, game and inserts on the label so people know what is inside and the consumer can decide if and how much it matters to them.  

To answer your very specific question so I don't get accused (again) of not answering questions, you asked "example what is the different of a v1 gb sml and a v7 gg sml box? cart? manual?"

First of all is the gg a typo?  Or are you asking if we know the difference between Nintendo Game Boy and Sega Game Gear?  Surely even you can give us that much credit.

A version 1 of a Game Boy Super Mario Land would generally be considered to have the code  DMG-ML-USA in place on the game cart, manual and box flap.  Later versions add a -1, and -2 to end of the code for Player's Choice versions and eventually the E Rating logo is added.  Version 7 most commonly would refer to codes on manuals that were reprinted for various (not always obvious) reasons more frequently than game labels or boxes and the code updated and while a manual can go as far as  DMG-ML-USA-7 game carts and boxes rarely do so not all codes on cart, box, manual always match.  

I've taken a lot of heat on this post about a variety of things, some fair, a lot not.  Some constructive, most not and despite people believing to the contrary as long as you weren't attacking my mother or family (which happened - not literally physically, but in words) I answered as much as was realistically possible.  And despite being wrongly accused of actually being the extremely rude and defensive guys that run IGS on Facebook I am simply trying to give collector's that want it (and just because not everyone wants, doesn't make it evil) an alternative to the established grading options by becoming an established grading company by doing things the right way, as transparently as possible.  

Are we the first to try, no.  Are we the last, probably not.  Will we succeed?  Time will tell but we believe that it's okay to have a different scale, to not simply copy the WATA scale and that true UV protection in cases matters, transparency matters, grading reports matter, customer service matters.  All we ask for is a fair chance - which for those that have given us that they are very happy with our product. 

 

[AdamW | 713]

2 hours ago, VideoGameGradersLLC said:

A version 1 of a Game Boy Super Mario Land would generally be considered to have the code  DMG-ML-USA in place on the game cart, manual and box flap.  Later versions add a -1, and -2 to end of the code for Player's Choice versions and eventually the E Rating logo is added.

Oh, yikes, it's a lot more complicated than that. There are four different US box prints of SML with DMG-ML USA on the box flap. Two of them likely came with the DMG-ML-USA manual. All four of them, plus the fifth and sixth box prints, which had DMG-ML USA-1 and DMG-ML USA-2 respectively on the tabs, came with the DMG-ML-USA cart. There are eight manual prints, which came in differing ranges of the box prints.

Please refer to

If you want to be grading CIB accurately, you're gonna need to know this kind of thing for at least significant titles like SML.

Edited January 7, 2022 by AdamW

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

18 minutes ago, AdamW said:

Oh, yikes, it's a lot more complicated than that.

Of course it is and we understand that. Thanks for the added info. 

[Gloves | 11,839]

@VideoGameGradersLLC One thing I would like to suggest that I do think could set you (or someone) apart - BE that database of games, variants, etc.. NO - you don't have to know everything today, of course not, as you've said. But if you grow a database of knowledge along with your business, you could be THE place to go for the info.

Digital content is key right now. I'm not gonna say anything buzzy like "associate an NFT with the graded game!" cuz that's silly, but I WOULD say that there is an issue (IMO) with paper - right now Wata (for instance) puts "fun little factoids" on their encased game labels. Once it's on paper in a sealed case it's there "forever" (barring a re-grade) and it means YOU as a company are STUCK in what you've said.

Stuff like this: https://videogamegraders.com/label-insignias/nes-black-box-insignia/

You're doubling down on the assumption that what we know today is infallible. You're writing in stone that there are 11 variations (for instance) of a given release. One day you're gonna have egg on your face for this sort of thing, and so will Wata and anyone else who has writ in physical form something like this. Unless the tidbits on the paper are absolutely verifiable (i.e. right there on the box already - maybe a code that appears or literally stating simply "black label") then there's the potential for future pain.

Instead, put a QR code on every label which simply leads to the top level game itself, and let people determine variant based on your database of variants, which you will grow over time. For instance, a Mario 3 "left bros" should just go to the "Mario 3" page, and let people then determine based on a comparison between your list and what they're holding in their hands what version of a given game they have. This would add EXTREME value as it'd be a growing, public database, and it would leave the physical items infallible in their information presented.

When I see a graded game, especially a "newer" game (think PS1 and newer) with "First Print" written on it, I cringe at the finality of the statement.

As you say yourself, and yes as we've seen on this forum - new details come out still. We don't know everything and that's part of the appeal of the hobby, is learning new things.

[JVOSS | 1,762]

1 hour ago, VideoGameGradersLLC said:

Of course it is and we understand that. Thanks for the added info. 

no you did not if you did then you would have sad that off the bat.  no if you expect us to welcome with wide arm and a warm welcome your sadly mistaken.  this is a vetting process i would expect any person do before they offer any service or claim to be the go to grading process.  as the "grader" you are expected to be the know all not the bottom feeder that regurgitate bull shit that cultivates crap.  to be a trusted "grader" you have to put you knowledge out there and prove your knowledge ever single day regardless if you stated it before.  there are many self made experts ie YOU then there are the modern EXPERTS. then the "old guard".  as a grader YOU are the unknown that is the fast car salesman who wants to impress everyone by saying the right things and warping it in a nice bow.  but under imminence scrutiny your product cracks like a raw egg.   some were in your deepest heart you mean well but in reality you have no clue to what your taking on.  i really don't care what your back ground is and the simple fact you didn't know how to answer the question on a simple question as gb SML v1 to v7 question which you never answered which was  whole damn point of the question.  then you should not be offering a paid service until you understand what your offering.  admitting you don't know shit is a start but then getting the right employees is even more critical.  you claim to have already graded some GB games and i sure you had some buddy's look at it and offer an opinion but i can tell you that with what you have shown here you have already screwed the client and misrepresented the community. i can only talk to the point of gb as that is what i do.

Edited January 7, 2022 by JVOSS

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

Thank you @JVOSSfor being the sole expert on the subject. Your continued criticism of my company seems misguided considering you’ve never had a game graded by us but we accept it as the norm in this group and move on. We have not misrepresented anything on any game we have graded. And we have not screwed anyone on anything. We have provided exactly the service we promise. 

[Gloves | 11,839]

4 minutes ago, JVOSS said:

no you did not if you did then you would have sad that off the bat.  no if you expect us to welcome with wide are and a warm welcome your sadly mistaken.  this is a vetting process i would expect any person do before they offer any service or claim to be the go to grading process.  as the "grader" you are expected to bet the know all not the bottom feeder that regurgitate bull shit that cultivates crap.  to be a trusted "grader" you have to put you knowledge out there and prove your knowledge ever single day regardless if you stated it before.  there are many self made experts ie YOU then there are the modern EXPERTS. then the "old guard".  as a grader YOU are the unknown that is the fast car salesman who wants to impress everyone by saying the right things and warping it in a nice bow.  but under imminence scrutiny your product cracks like a raw egg.   some were in your deepest heart you mean well but in reality you have no clue to what your taking on.  i really don't care what your back ground is and the simple fact you didn't know how to answer the question on a simple question as gb SML v1 to v7 question which you never answered which was  whole damn point of the question.  then you should not be offering a paid service until you understand what your offering.  admitting you don't know shit is a start but then getting the right employees is even more critical.  you claim to have already graded some GB games and i sure you had some buddy's look at it and offer an opinion but i can tell you that with what you have shown here you have already screwed the client and misrepresented the community. i can only talk to the point of gb as that is what i do.

To be fair, I personally don't believe that a grader should have to know about every variant ever, or even most... or even any! (unless they claim to, to their detriment)

A grader should be IMO simply stating the condition of the item in question, and they should ONLY grade sealed items. Grading CIB or cart only is really stupid except for in relatively extreme cases, e.g. prototypes, 1 of 1 stuff, etc.. 

See my comment I made a few minutes ago - I see potential (in any grading company) to BUILD a database of information. But to outright claim to be experts on what variants exists is not only foolish, it's also IMO irrelevant to the service they are supposed to be offering. 

[Gloves | 11,839]

Just now, VideoGameGradersLLC said:

Thank you @JVOSSfor being the sole expert on the subject. Your continued criticism of my company seems misguided considering you’ve never had a game graded by us but we accept it as the norm in this group and move on. We have not misrepresented anything on any game we have graded. And we have not screwed anyone on anything. We have provided exactly the service we promise. 

I dunno if I'd call it "the norm" per se. Adam has been helpful providing information, and I believe others have done the same. Admittedly I've not read the whole thread (please report things if people are being outright harassing or offensive), but in general this forum is largely comprised of passionate and helpful people. 

Of course there are those who see grading and scoff, and as I've stated - this whole grading and modern monetization of the hobby has basically torn this community in two, some folks are gonna be sensitive about it. At the end of the day the umbrella of "this sorta shit" killed their old stomping grounds (in their minds), and they're gonna be sour about it.

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

3 minutes ago, Gloves said:

Adam has been helpful providing information, and I believe others have done the same.

Absolutely agree and appreciated as previously stated. Varying motivations perhaps. 

[JVOSS | 1,762]

5 minutes ago, Gloves said:

A grader should be IMO simply stating the condition of the item in question, and they should ONLY grade sealed items. Grading CIB or cart only is really stupid except for in relatively extreme cases, e.g. prototypes, 1 of 1 stuff, etc.. 

that i could get behind as the sealed stuff is not manipulated by anyone.  that would be the best thing any "grading service" could do.

to the second point grading CIB or cart is even better there is way to much data required to provide a good and accurate, fare, honest grade.  i'm sure as the grading service get older and the data they collected gets more verifiable then that services can provide a invaluable service to the community.   

[VideoGameGradersLLC | 82]

2 minutes ago, JVOSS said:

accurate, fare, honest grade

Grade is about condition not variations  and versions, that’s up to the collector’s and investors to decide. The graders job beyond evaluating authenticity and condition is to accurately provide the details about what can’t be seen once in a case (as I said, codes on flaps, manuals, carts) not to decide if that is more or less important than a different variation so long as the parts aren’t drastically mismatched. 

[JVOSS | 1,762]

5 minutes ago, Gloves said:

Of course there are those who see grading and scoff, and as I've stated - this whole grading and modern monetization of the hobby has basically torn this community in two, some folks are gonna be sensitive about it. At the end of the day the umbrella of "this sorta shit" killed their old stomping grounds (in their minds), and they're gonna be sour about it.

and to this point your correct.  grading is/was a way to preserve the cherished game not for the monetization until wata arrived.  i have games i wanted to grade only to see if the monies was there but held back because of the horrifying stories and the TIME for turnaround. 

to the point that graded stuff can cause jealousy or the FOMO.  

[JVOSS | 1,762]

3 minutes ago, VideoGameGradersLLC said:

Grade is about condition not variations  and versions, that’s up to the collector’s and investors to decide. The graders job beyond evaluating authenticity and condition is to accurately provide the details about what can’t be seen once in a case (as I said, codes on flaps, manuals, carts) not to decide if that is more or less important than a different variation so long as the parts aren’t drastically mismatched. 

Grade is about condition not variations  and versions, poppycock. Grading is the process of collecting all data to help validate any future examples, then to render an opinion on what is seen, and then to evaluate the condition of the contents before it is encased and never to be verified again.  the outside box can be verified by simply looking at it while the insides are left to the graders judgement and can never be argued over once the "grader" has rendered judgement.

the case of misrepresented is simple. 
ie you encase a game that at the time all data points have been documented.  the following year (or 10 year later) another copy is "graded" and a new data point is discovered and now documented what are you going to do!

Are you going to offer a re-evaluation free? 
Not put the new data point on the newly graded game but hold that data back? 
or
Are you going to ignore that new data point all together.

ether way you misrepresented the grading data.

 

just as i expect a grading server to be forthcoming with that data collected i expect the grading company to be on the forefront of verification of that data. i guess you call it a pop report. 

using the example of GB SML v1 currently there are iirc 12-18 data points tomorrow that could grow to 14-20 data points and that is in/on the cart alone.  the box/manual/tray/incest is a whole different story.

are you as a grading service going to put all data points on the encasement or are you going to provide a detailed and publicly accessible report digital report?  you have graded some already do you have that data available?  if so where for others to validate?