General Current Events/Political Discussion

[Reed Rothchild | 9,683]

I'm saying put aside the idiot looters, put aside any of the nonsensical quotes you may have seen from any given Democrat leader, and put aside the fact that, yeah, like @Silent Hill said, this is such a deeply complicated, societal issue, that it can never fully be cured, and that no "utopia" is ever gonna happen...

And think about the common folk who are marching, en masse.  And think about why they're doing it.  Put yourself in that individual's shoes.

It's hard enough to do it as some pampered, middle class white person, like most of us are, much less as a Swede (?) I'm sure.  But I'd still ask you to try.

@Estil Fair enough

[Silent Hill | 276]

Just now, CodysGameRoom said:

Like, do you NOT think that is what is happening? Not a soul is thinking "I wish it was all better" and expecting it to be resolved. Don't be obtuse. Things like police reform, de-funding, etc are being discussed in detail. That's where to start. 

Having equal rights for all Americans doesn't mean shit when they aren't treated equally.

Police reform may address police brutality as a whole (though there's a valid argument that the police need MORE funding if you'd like them to be better staffed and trained) but it doesn't impact the much greater disparities between races that impact quality of life, like so many outlets are highlighting (income, education, housing, crime, etc.). 

Equal rights is the best we can do and they do "mean shit", otherwise we'd be in much worse shape as a nation. The blame for the aforementioned disparities is being pinned on not being treated equally, systemic racism, unequal opportunities (however you'd like to word it) when in reality, individuals have equal path of rights that can lead them to a more successful life for themselves and their kin. But I've yet to see this movement address the angle of how individual choice affects outcome. Otherwise, we'd be discussing things like graduation rates, family structure, college drop-out rates, real estate prices vs. income, etc. 

[CodysGameRoom | 2,009]

3 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

Equal rights is the best we can do and they do "mean shit",

Tell that to the black people murdered by police

3 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

individuals have equal path of rights that can lead them to a more successful life for themselves and their kin

Do you truly believe it is equal for white and black people? Tell me you HONESTLY believe it is an equal path.

4 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

I've yet to see this movement address the angle of how individual choice affects outcome.

They didn't choose to be black.

[Estil | 1,282]

6 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

It's hard enough to do it as some pampered, middle class white person, like most of us are, much less as a Swede (?) I'm sure.  But I'd still ask you to try.

Oh you're from Sweden, cool!  That's where the best band/group ever is from!  

[cartman | 195]

1 minute ago, Reed Rothchild said:

I'm saying put aside the idiot looters, put aside any of the nonsensical quotes you may have seen from any given Democrat leader, and put aside the fact that, yeah, like @Silent Hill said, this is such a deeply complicated, societal issue, that it can never fully be cured, and that no "utopia" is ever gonna happen...

And think about the common folk who are marching, en masse.  And think about why they're doing it.  Put yourself in that individual's shoes.

I never put forth the looters and went straight to the core of the protests. There's no foundation for any systematic murder agenda against blacks nor is there evidence of racism specifically in those anecdoctal cases either. We don't know that was part of Chauvin's mindframe.

It's BLM that knows fucking everything and the social climate they've created resembles that of religious or radical ideological rule to go along with it.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,683]

3 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

Police reform may address police brutality as a whole (though there's a valid argument that the police need MORE funding if you'd like them to be better staffed and trained) but it doesn't impact the much greater disparities between races that impact quality of life, like so many outlets are highlighting (income, education, housing, crime, etc.). 

Equal rights is the best we can do and they do "mean shit", otherwise we'd be in much worse shape as a nation. The blame for the aforementioned disparities is being pinned on not being treated equally, systemic racism, unequal opportunities (however you'd like to word it) when in reality, individuals have equal path of rights that can lead them to a more successful life for themselves and their kin. But I've yet to see this movement address the angle of how individual choice affects outcome. Otherwise, we'd be discussing things like graduation rates, family structure, college drop-out rates, real estate prices vs. income, etc. 

I'm always reminded of the "how can Black people rise up and overcome?" part of this skit:

 

[CodysGameRoom | 2,009]

3 minutes ago, cartman said:

There's no foundation for any systematic murder agenda against blacks nor is there evidence of racism specifically in those anecdoctal cases either.

Please elaborate on how you have come to this conclusion and how you simply ignores the evidence and the patterns of systemic racism. 

[cartman | 195]

Just now, CodysGameRoom said:

Please elaborate on how you have come to this conclusion and how you simply ignores the evidence and the patterns of systemic racism. 

You presented no evidence that's the thing. Neither in Floyd's case nor in the other ones. Not of racism and not of systematism.

[CodysGameRoom | 2,009]

Just now, cartman said:

You presented no evidence that's the thing. Neither in Floyd's case nor in the other ones. Not of racism and not of systematism.

Ignore me and my beliefs. Explain to me how YOU'VE come to YOUR conclusion.

[Silent Hill | 276]

12 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

17 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

Equal rights is the best we can do and they do "mean shit",

Tell that to the black people murdered by police

17 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

individuals have equal path of rights that can lead them to a more successful life for themselves and their kin

Do you truly believe it is equal for white and black people? Tell me you HONESTLY believe it is an equal path.

17 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

I've yet to see this movement address the angle of how individual choice affects outcome.

They didn't choose to be black.

1. I'd say the same thing to anyone who's been unjustly killed by police, regardless of race. It wasn't their lack of equal rights, it was their unfortunate interaction with an evil police officer(s).

2. Yes, it is equal. I believe it because it's the law. Again, people will always have their unique mindset, but the laws are equal and that's the best we can do. Hold people accountable to those laws when broken. 

3.  Being black doesn't impact their ability to make the correct choices in life that will keep them employed, out of crime/jail and out of poverty. This is true for all races. 

Edited June 22, 2020 by Silent Hill

[Reed Rothchild | 9,683]

5 minutes ago, cartman said:

I never put forth the looters and went straight to the core of the protests. There's no foundation for any systematic murder agenda against blacks nor is there evidence of racism specifically in those anecdoctal cases either. We don't know that was part of Chauvin's mindframe.

It's BLM that knows fucking everything and the social climate they've created resembles that of religious or radical ideological rule to go along with it.

I see...

So you are against the protests themselves?  Not sure many here are gonna agree with that.

[cartman | 195]

1 minute ago, CodysGameRoom said:

Ignore me and my beliefs. Explain to me how YOU'VE come to YOUR conclusion.

Because the evidence has not been presented for yours. You're the one claiming to know.

[Tulpa | 3,583]

3 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

2. Yes, it is equal. I believe it because it's the law. Again, people will always have their unique mindset, but the laws are equal and that's the best we can do. Hold people accountable to those laws when broken.

That's the thing, they're not being held accountable, and the law doesn't address all the inequity. That's what a lot of what is going on is addressing.

[Link | 2,818]

14 hours ago, Estil said:

The name calling is one thing no one here is in any position to throw stones about (you know that whole let he that is without sin thing).

What name have I called you?

[cartman | 195]

1 minute ago, Reed Rothchild said:

I see...

So you are against the protests themselves?  Not sure many here are gonna agree with that.

I'm against what they're concluding with them but not the individual case issue wich is the police manhandling of Floyd.

[Silent Hill | 276]

1 minute ago, Tulpa said:

That's the thing, they're not being held accountable, and the law doesn't address all the inequity. That's what a lot of what is going on is addressing.

I agree with that angle of the movement and I don't think anyone could/would disagree with that notion. A lot of people across the nation aren't held accountable for breaking the law, but they most definitely shouldbe. (Shitty to see ~75% of murders in Chicago go unsolved for example). That said, I agree with the review of things like Qualified Immunity to ensure that police are held to the same standards of the law, like any other citizen would/should be. 

What I take issue with is the racial divide. People not being held accountable when breaking the law, isn't a racial issue. 

[fcgamer | 4,808]

I had seen a similar experiment earlier, and I wanted to post it and comment, but trying to refind it led me to this one:

To me, it's quite interesting as it shows a different viewpoint from the one being discussed, shared, and debated on VGS. As the experiment is set in Singapore, we don't just see this black vs white discrimination, rather a larger range. It's funny as I would definitely be taking a few steps back if I were on there, and this just solidifies the unpopular opinion that any race can be racially discriminated against.

Now for the video I initially wanted to post, which tries to address the issue of white privilege:

My problem with things such as this is if you listen to some of the issues being brought up / discussed, well I hold the unpopular opinion that some of them are issues that must be addressed by the individuals first, rather than trying to place the blame on another race / privilege.

For example, the issue of growing up without a father figure / your parents being divorced. While I can see how being fortunate enough to grow up in a home where your parents are happily married, and with a father figure, and how such a good environment can help foster a child's success and future, I likewise scratch my head and ask myself the following:

What does this have to do with white privilege, and even if statistics show that more white children grow up in an environment with married parents, how does that suddenly make me a bad guy or responsible for the problems for those who don't? It seems to me, in this particular situation, those that are walking out on their children or getting divorced are the ones truly at fault. And this comes from a position where I personally know many people who have had "accidents", across races, many people who are divorced, etc. But it's how one chooses to handle the situation afterwards that sets the stage.

That leads to the next issue, poverty. Of course people living in poverty have less resources and therefore less opportunities than those who don't. Of course those living in single-family homes will more likely be in this camp, more likely have to help out their mothers to put food on the table to feed themselves and their siblings, etc. But again, in part this cycle is not set in motion because of race, rather it comes about because of people not stepping to to the plate to become responsible parents, deadbeat fathers for example, thus creating this dynamic.

But its obviously easier to play the victim card than to try to address some of these issues， which really shouldnt be about skin colour at all.

[Tulpa | 3,583]

2 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

What I take issue with is the racial divide. People not being held accountable when breaking the law, isn't a racial issue. 

When one race is being disproportionally targeted by those not being held accountable, it is a racial issue.

[CodysGameRoom | 2,009]

22 minutes ago, cartman said:

Because the evidence has not been presented for yours. You're the one claiming to know.

I already said ignore me and my beliefs and explain your position and how you've come to the conclusion that no systemic racism exists. Surely you held this position before ever seeing a comment from me on this message board.

How did you come to this conclusion? I'm honestly trying to understand your mindset here. Do your best to convince me of your position. I will keep an open mind. 

Edited June 22, 2020 by CodysGameRoom

[Silent Hill | 276]

Just now, Tulpa said:

When one race is being disproportionally targeted by those not being held accountable, it is a racial issue.

I assume you're referring to police "targeting" black people, which just isn't factually accurate, unless you're just looking at the raw numbers in relation to population. Plenty of factors play into that disparity and must be taken into consideration before determining true reason for the disparity. 

This also could imply that they are being held accountable when unjustly killing other races, which also isn't accurate, so it's not a racial issue, just an issue of accountability/prosecution in general. (not saying you're implying that, but I know a lot of people make that assumption)

 

 

[CodysGameRoom | 2,009]

4 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

police "targeting" black people, which just isn't factually accurate

source? I mean the patterns prove otherwise. So I'm just curious of your source on this.

[cartman | 195]

7 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

I already said ignore me and my beliefs and explain your position and how you've come to the conclusion that no systemic racism exists. Surely you held this position before ever seeing a comment from me on this message board.

How did you come to this conclusion? I'm honestly trying to understand your mindset here. Do your best to convince me of your position. I will keep an open mind. 

Because the numbers are not showing it. In order to be systemic you have to have a large sample of cases and then show that it was racially motivated on top of that. I'm not saying it's completely outside the realm of possibility but it has to proven first.

 

[Link | 2,818]

57 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

For example, the issue of growing up without a father figure / your parents being divorced. While I can see how being fortunate enough to grow up in a home where your parents are happily married, and with a father figure, and how such a good environment can help foster a child's success and future, I likewise scratch my head and ask myself the following:

What does this have to do with white privilege, and even if statistics show that more white children grow up in an environment with married parents, how does that suddenly make me a bad guy or responsible for the problems for those w

I went on extensively some pages back about the causes of things like poverty and divorce which disproportionately affect black people more than white people. If you really want to understand something you have to look at greater contexts, not say “I guess that’s just the way it is ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ “

Same to you, cartman & Silent Hill

Edited June 22, 2020 by Link
hello, new page

[Silent Hill | 276]

19 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

source? I mean the patterns prove otherwise. So I'm just curious of your source on this.

To preface, more research and stats are needed, but here are some that review as granular as possible to find a link between the disparity and racism. 

https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/files/area/workshop/leo/leo16_fryer.pdf

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/white-cops-dont-commit-more-shootings

https://www.brightworkresearch.com/criticalthinking/2019/11/why-the-claims-by-black-lives-matter-on-police-shootings-are-false/#The_Validity_of_Colin_Kaepernick_and_Other_NFL_Players_Kneeling_to_Protest_Police_Violence

I'm sure that there are plenty of sources citing the opposite, but I try to focus on the ones that present the best statistical analysis. Happy to look at opposing sources that provide granular detail. 

PS: I know people take Ben Shapiro with a grain of salt, but he refers to studies like the ones above:

 

 

[fcgamer | 4,808]

4 minutes ago, Link said:

I went on extensively some pages back about the causes of things like poverty and divorce which disproportionately affect black people more than white people. If you really want to understand something you have to look at greater contexts, not say “I guess that’s just the way it is ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ “

Not going to dig back through countless pages to find the post, sorry.

With that being said, please tell me how it's my fault if someone else gets divorced, and similarly if said divorce pushes the remaining part of the family into poverty. Unless I was shagging someone and the divorce came about because of that reason, I honestly cannot see any reason how it would be related to me.