Holder Comparison: VGA vs Wata vs CGC

[mlbfan10 | 340]

1 hour ago, Level99 said:

Fair enough. As far of the mistake of grading a fake game, WATA did the same, and CGC will do as well I'm pretty sure. So that is not enough of a reason to make me want to stop using them.

I prefer them because of their case look, label, grading scale, and the fact that they grade consoles and accoserise (I like to keep everything unified if that make sence). 

I honestly was waiting for CGC to surprise me, but I was disappointed with their ugly label, and them only grading NA games.

Today I've been seeing disagreements on some sealed third party genesis games that CGC has recently graded as people are saying they are reseals. These things will happen from time to time in any hobby that involves grading. 

VGA is great for grading everything and am glad that I can get consoles, accessories graded with them, just wish they would get their turnaround under control (it has been improving as of late), release pop reports, and have online submissions. 

Def understand the unification and VGA's cases are sleek and look great, I do miss the days where I had an exclusive VGA collection. 

[Level99 | 3]

2 hours ago, MrWunderful said:

All grading is inherently subjective, so of course the differences are going to be apparent. Its someone deciding the condition of something based on their personal feelings. Thats one of the main problems with Grading. 
 

Don’t mistake me for a Wata apologist, as they have their own issues. As soon as they started grading anything other than sealed, it shows they don’t actually care about the community and car far more about turning out as many slabs as possible. 
 

You don’t have to believe anything I say, so it doesnt matter if you don’t trust Wata or not. You obviously trust them enough to send them money to get games graded.  Funny how people “know” their grading is inconsistent, but still send their games in (people in general, not you). Hard to pass up on that sweet, sweet flipper cash

 

PS. Saying an argument is “stupid” doesn’t make it less true. Grading a cart only game makes it useless (technically CIB/sealed too), outside of perceived collector value. Its irrelevant if you have flashcarts, emulators, etc. 

 

 

 

With so many resealed/fake/repro games/cases/manuals out there, I can appreciate grading. I get to have the opinion of people that have been doing this for years, and know the differences between a fake and an original. I don't have time to learn all this stuff. At the end of the day, it all comes down to trust and reputation. And I agree, grading is subjective. As long as I have peace of mind that the game is authentic and well preserved, I'm good. 

Well yeah of course it's not going to be playable when its slabbed, so why bring it up? lets be real here, no one is sending a game for grading with an intention of playing it the first place. That also doesn't make it "useless". You can always break that sucker up and play it if you want, its still the same game.

 

 

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

2 hours ago, mlbfan10 said:

VGA is great for grading everything and am glad that I can get consoles, accessories graded with them, just wish they would get their turnaround under control (it has been improving as of late), release pop reports, and have online submissions. 

I agree when it comes to non-import stuff. But I should note that they used to have POP reports. The system was often hard to use, and eventually became outdated in more than one way. But since I am an import collector, I am going to try out Wata instead of hoping they will make additional changes atop of what you have mentioned.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

5 hours ago, Level99 said:

With so many resealed/fake/repro games/cases/manuals out there, I can appreciate grading. I get to have the opinion of people that have been doing this for years, and know the differences between a fake and an original. I don't have time to learn all this stuff. At the end of the day, it all comes down to trust and reputation. And I agree, grading is subjective. As long as I have peace of mind that the game is authentic and well preserved, I'm good. 

Well yeah of course it's not going to be playable when its slabbed, so why bring it up? lets be real here, no one is sending a game for grading with an intention of playing it the first place. That also doesn't make it "useless". You can always break that sucker up and play it if you want, its still the same game.

 

 

Do you have the info of people at VGA who have been doing this for years? Would love to hear their names and experience. 
 

Yeah, I mean nobody will question it when you sell it again if its slabbed. Well maybe the people that spot the graded fakes. Didn’t wata just grade a fake of one of the most reproduced tg-16 games?
edit-  (Happened a while ago, I recently saw video)

 

 

I agree you can always open it up.With VGA you can re-use the case even but this makes no sense:

Step 1- Pay $$$ to make games un-usable

Step 2- spend time and energy, and possibly damage to item to make useable

Step 3- profit

 

I bring it up, because when discussing graded games, it’s fun to tell people that they paid extra money to have their game graded and make it not (immediately) useable and now it’s worth actually less based on recent heritage auctions. My graded games too! I missed out on 100k by not selling at the peak. Oh well. 

Edited February 8, 2023 by MrWunderful

[inasuma | 1,203]

Want to add some addition info I’ve learned about VGA cases, and will update the OP as well.

as it turns out, the small notches on the bottom and top of vga cases (while looking at the front) are a slight security/tamper evidence measure. Basically trying to slice the bottom off in some way is almost guaranteed to eat through part of that notch, and if the bottom is placed back on, even perfectly, it’ll still look “off.”

there are other security features as well but I wouldn’t be able to show it. But basically the acrylic was produced a certain way that if you replaced any part of the case or lost some of the material while attempting to open a holder, it would be obvious at least to vga that tampering occurred.

it seems as though I was wrong about the holders!

[inasuma | 1,203]

3 hours ago, MrWunderful said:

Do you have the info of people at VGA who have been doing this for years? Would love to hear their names and experience. 
 

Yeah, I mean nobody will question it when you sell it again if its slabbed. Well maybe the people that spot the graded fakes. Didn’t wata just grade a fake of one of the most reproduced tg-16 games?

 

 

I agree you can always open it up.With VGA you can re-use the case even but this makes no sense:

Step 1- Pay $$$ to make games un-usable

Step 2- spend time and energy, and possibly damage to item to make useable

Step 3- profit

 

I bring it up, because when discussing graded games, it’s fun to tell people that they paid extra money to have their game graded and make it not (immediately) useable and now it’s worth actually less based on recent heritage auctions. My graded games too! I missed out on 100k by not selling at the peak. Oh well. 

FYI that graded repro happened (allegedly) over 1.5 years ago, before wata was acquired. Not at all recent. But it was very strange that they only waited until now to say something. Probably didn’t want to disturb their HA pump. Lol

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

21 minutes ago, inasuma said:

FYI that graded repro happened (allegedly) over 1.5 years ago, before wata was acquired. Not at all recent. But it was very strange that they only waited until now to say something. Probably didn’t want to disturb their HA pump. Lol

Fair enough, I will edit. I “recently” saw the video! 

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

26 minutes ago, inasuma said:

Want to add some addition info I’ve learned about VGA cases, and will update the OP as well.

as it turns out, the small notches on the bottom and top of vga cases (while looking at the front) are a slight security/tamper evidence measure. Basically trying to slice the bottom off in some way is almost guaranteed to eat through part of that notch, and if the bottom is placed back on, even perfectly, it’ll still look “off.”

there are other security features as well but I wouldn’t be able to show it. But basically the acrylic was produced a certain way that if you replaced any part of the case or lost some of the material while attempting to open a holder, it would be obvious at least to vga that tampering occurred.

it seems as though I was wrong about the holders!

When I originally did my “test” I did think that it would be obvious if it was resealed upon scrutiny (not in an eBay pic for example). No matter what you use or how much you  clean the VGA acrylic, its never the same as factory fresh first time bonding. Someone probably not familiar with slabbed games from VGA could tell. 
 

Ill admit I embelish how easy it is to re-use or forge a vga case reseal but it can be done and passed off on quick scrutiny.  IMO it would take way too much time for it to be even remotely do-able to an extent where it would be “worth it”. That being said, VGA case design with a lack of a clear tamper evidence device (Wata-clips,CGC-sonic weld) makes it realistic. 

[inasuma | 1,203]

29 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

When I originally did my “test” I did think that it would be obvious if it was resealed upon scrutiny (not in an eBay pic for example). No matter what you use or how much you  clean the VGA acrylic, its never the same as factory fresh first time bonding. Someone probably not familiar with slabbed games from VGA could tell. 
 

Ill admit I embelish how easy it is to re-use or forge a vga case reseal but it can be done and passed off on quick scrutiny.  IMO it would take way too much time for it to be even remotely do-able to an extent where it would be “worth it”. That being said, VGA case design with a lack of a clear tamper evidence device (Wata-clips,CGC-sonic weld) makes it realistic. 

yeah, i mean, we're probably giving a scammer too much credit - i doubt they are intelligent enough to scrutinize their own work LOL

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

6 hours ago, Level99 said:

With so many resealed/fake/repro games/cases/manuals out there, I can appreciate grading. I get to have the opinion of people that have been doing this for years, and know the differences between a fake and an original. I don't have time to learn all this stuff. At the end of the day, it all comes down to trust and reputation. And I agree, grading is subjective. As long as I have peace of mind that the game is authentic and well preserved, I'm good. 

Not to burst your bubble, but CGA has a long history of grading fakes, foreign rereleases, etc. as either authentic or original releases. With the last one I heard of being that fake Pokémon Pearl with the wrong font for the "E" grade. Which is why I would rely on GoCollect a community that'll help me with any pre-graded CIBs first. With grading being for the graders simply because even respectable auction houses like Sotheby's, and Japanese resellers like Mandarake have graders.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

42 minutes ago, inasuma said:

yeah, i mean, we're probably giving a scammer too much credit - i doubt they are intelligent enough to scrutinize their own work LOL

Yeah way more profitable to make a ton of low end quick fakes than one big expensive one. 

[Level99 | 3]

9 hours ago, MrWunderful said:

Do you have the info of people at VGA who have been doing this for years? Would love to hear their names and experience. 
 

Yeah, I mean nobody will question it when you sell it again if its slabbed. Well maybe the people that spot the graded fakes. Didn’t wata just grade a fake of one of the most reproduced tg-16 games?
edit-  (Happened a while ago, I recently saw video)

 

 

I agree you can always open it up.With VGA you can re-use the case even but this makes no sense:

Step 1- Pay $$$ to make games un-usable

Step 2- spend time and energy, and possibly damage to item to make useable

Step 3- profit

 

I bring it up, because when discussing graded games, it’s fun to tell people that they paid extra money to have their game graded and make it not (immediately) useable and now it’s worth actually less based on recent heritage auctions. My graded games too! I missed out on 100k by not selling at the peak. Oh well. 

Unfortunately I do not, but I agree with you. Every grading company should be transparent. All I know is that VGA has been in the market for years before WATA and CGC. And many collectors +rep them, and their stuff used to sell at reasonable prices... Well, until WATA and HA did their awful plot to pump the market and made almost everyone out of this hobby hates grading, even though its been a thing since the 2000s.

Hence why I said almost no one sends their games for grading with the intention of using it in the future. I don't care what anyone decides to do with it, but I can understand someone who loves the game so much and want an extra copy to preserve and keep clean on a shelf. 

I feel bad for the people that paid 100s of thousands on games that are clearly mass produced. WATA and HA tricked them into thinking that Mario 64 is actually rare LOL. What's even worse, is they tried to do the same with the recent CGC Zelda, but thank god no one fell for it. This sucks, and I don't blame people hating on WATA for what they did. And oh boy, not gonna mention resellers and flippers, they're still trying to squeeze every penny from people, but I'm so happy to see games sitting for years without any buyers. What's amazing to me, is that some of them still grade mass produced modern games, with avaerage grades, for a ridiculous fee. Like you can tell they don't know what they're doing.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Level99

[Level99 | 3]

5 hours ago, inasuma said:

Want to add some addition info I’ve learned about VGA cases, and will update the OP as well.

as it turns out, the small notches on the bottom and top of vga cases (while looking at the front) are a slight security/tamper evidence measure. Basically trying to slice the bottom off in some way is almost guaranteed to eat through part of that notch, and if the bottom is placed back on, even perfectly, it’ll still look “off.”

there are other security features as well but I wouldn’t be able to show it. But basically the acrylic was produced a certain way that if you replaced any part of the case or lost some of the material while attempting to open a holder, it would be obvious at least to vga that tampering occurred.

it seems as though I was wrong about the holders!

Please, it would be great to include pictures of these notches. Great new info to learn. Thanks!

[Level99 | 3]

4 hours ago, FenrirZero said:

Not to burst your bubble, but CGA has a long history of grading fakes, foreign rereleases, etc. as either authentic or original releases. With the last one I heard of being that fake Pokémon Pearl with the wrong font for the "E" grade. Which is why I would rely on GoCollect a community that'll help me with any pre-graded CIBs first. With grading being for the graders simply because even respectable auction houses like Sotheby's, and Japanese resellers like Mandarake have graders.

Interesting, I guess because they have been doing it the longest so they have a long record of these "mistakes" (hopefully) occurring? or the graders just aren't good enough? These questions needs to be addressed if they want this hobby/market to grow and have some substance. Or, it will continue to being niche and no need for all the useless marketing CGC and WATA are doing, because no one is being transparent unfortunately. It seems it's always going to be a word of mouth kinda trust, instead of a proccess that is well established that normal customers can believe in. I do try and make sure that what I'm buying is legit, I'm trying to learn whenever I have the time. But for new people, it's going to be hard to pick up these things from day one. And I was one... kinda still tbh...

Edited February 8, 2023 by Level99

[jonebone | 1,307]

I've seen questionable or fake games in every one of the 3 company holders.  I've seen what I perceive be be undergraded or overgraded games in every one of the 3 company holders.

I've had a game that I thought was authentic rejected by one company to be authenticated by another.  

End of the day grading is subjective but when done right, it does increase the value of the item and provides some sort of 3rd party "expert" opinion even if it may not be 100% accurate.  If you cannot accept the risks then graded games are not for you.  

For people who complain about graded games be thankful you don't collect graded toys.  Those are much higher risk as they can yellow over time (and a yellowed toy commands less value, yet the slab would not have the yellowed designation), bubbles can crack over time, o-rings can wear out and limbs can become detached, etc.

As far as graded games go, the risk is very minimal with at degradation at least. 

Edited February 8, 2023 by jonebone

[tidaldreams | 654]

8 hours ago, jonebone said:

I've seen questionable or fake games in every one of the 3 company holders.  I've seen what I perceive be be undergraded or overgraded games in every one of the 3 company holders.

I've had a game that I thought was authentic rejected by one company to be authenticated by another.  

End of the day grading is subjective but when done right, it does increase the value of the item and provides some sort of 3rd party "expert" opinion even if it may not be 100% accurate.  If you cannot accept the risks then graded games are not for you.  

For people who complain about graded games be thankful you don't collect graded toys.  Those are much higher risk as they can yellow over time (and a yellowed toy commands less value, yet the slab would not have the yellowed designation), bubbles can crack over time, o-rings can wear out and limbs can become detached, etc.

As far as graded games go, the risk is very minimal with at degradation at least. 

yep, if wata rejects your game just send it to cgc

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

14 hours ago, Level99 said:

Interesting, I guess because they have been doing it the longest so they have a long record of these "mistakes" (hopefully) occurring?

When they started VGA in February, 2008, which was during CGA's Tom Darby era, their source material came from the internet. But since that point, I cannot say. Based on what CAS charges for grading, as they offer a "no grading" discount, VGA will not admit their mistakes. Most likely because their own policies come first, grading fees are very little, and the combination of the two would require them to admit that they'll cut corners if it helps them meet their quotas.