Correct number of unlicensed North American NES games

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

8 hours ago, darkchylde28 said:

I don't know, if we're going to get into wordplay here, I think Cheetahmen II can absolutely be classified as "released," but perhaps not "distributed," or at least not widely so.  It was absolutely produced in large quantities and made it outside of its factory, with the intention of being sold to the public, but something derailed whichever route(s) the creators intended to take there.

The thing that derailed it was the fact that Active went bankrupt before they could sell the games.  Also, the lack of instruction manuals shows that it wasn't even really ready for release.  IIRC, it was Mike Etler (and/or his associates) that found them, pieced them together, and distributed them (I wasn't in the online community at the time, so I can't recall exactly... @Dr. Morbis may know...or know who might), but I do know the only reason it was ever included was because Etler (the sole source of the game) included it on the original list of NES games.  This is also why the Aladdin games are counted (at the time he was the sole source, though other supplies were found at later dates) despite never really having been "released" (though there's evidence that they were indeed sold in extremely small numbers before Camerica folded).  Anyway, Cheetahmen II was in no way produced in "large" quantities, as I don't even think there were 1000 units in the find, and there likely wasn't another "find" to be had at any point. 

[Dr. Morbis | 2,091]

4 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

The thing that derailed it was the fact that Active went bankrupt before they could sell the games.  Also, the lack of instruction manuals shows that it wasn't even really ready for release.  IIRC, it was Mike Etler (and/or his associates) that found them, pieced them together, and distributed them (I wasn't in the online community at the time, so I can't recall exactly... @Dr. Morbis may know...or know who might), but I do know the only reason it was ever included was because Etler (the sole source of the game) included it on the original list of NES games.  This is also why the Aladdin games are counted (at the time he was the sole source, though other supplies were found at later dates) despite never really having been "released" (though there's evidence that they were indeed sold in extremely small numbers before Camerica folded).  Anyway, Cheetahmen II was in no way produced in "large" quantities, as I don't even think there were 1000 units in the find, and there likely wasn't another "find" to be had at any point. 

Cheetahmen II is definitely a gray area, and definitely deserves an asterix on any release list.  But the amount of years between Cheetahmen II's manufacture and Garage Cart's "release" (notwithstanding one being a registered company hiring a plant to professionally manufacture their cartridge versus a guy literally "making" games in his garage by himself) makes it entirely too easy to form two distinct eras for unlicensed games.

I personally count the US unlicensed games up to Cheetahmen II as canon and the games from Garage Cart onward as "homebrew" or "after market" games.  It seems like a rather logical conclusion anyone can draw without much fuss, and it makes me wonder how there can really be much of an argument to the contrary...

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Cheetahmen II is definitely a gray area, and definitely deserves an asterix on any release list.  But the amount of years between Cheetahmen II's manufacture and Garage Cart's "release" (notwithstanding one being a registered company hiring a plant to professionally manufacture their cartridge versus a guy literally "making" games in his garage by himself) makes it entirely too easy to form two distinct eras for unlicensed games.

I personally count the US unlicensed games up to Cheetahmen II as canon and the games from Garage Cart onward as "homebrew" or "after market" games.  It seems like a rather logical conclusion anyone can draw without much fuss, and it makes me wonder how there can really be much of an argument to the contrary...

Yeah, Cheetahmen II is definitely as grey as it gets   I would class it as an unreleased game that subsequently saw the light of day.  Something akin to the later releases of Airball, Happy Camper, etc, and not as a full-fledged release.  Homebrews like GC are a different breed, since they're 100% unlicensed, and 100% released, but not "in the day" releases.  Those of us who like a hard line definitely differentiate the two types of releases so we can have a goal that isn't constantly shifting.  But yeah, Cheetamen II is hard as hell to define, as it wasn't officially released (at least not in the way intended), yet it obviously wasn't home made either. 

[Tulpa | 3,517]

1 hour ago, the_wizard_666 said:

IIRC, it was Mike Etler (and/or his associates) that found them, pieced them together, and distributed them (I wasn't in the online community at the time, so I can't recall exactly... @Dr. Morbis may know...or know who might),

I remember a post by Etler himself on the old site.

He said that he was clued in by someone who either brought him a copy or who mentioned it (forget which), so he went to check it out. He found whoever owned the warehouse find was selling them to anyone who was in the know. A couple of flea market vendors were buying small quantities (so a few dozen did make it out aside from Etler's stash), but Elter decided to buy larger chunks. I also remember him saying that he didn't put them together, so either they came that way or whoever got them out of the warehouse put them together to sell them off.

He didn't take them all at once, but said it was like three separate purchases. He also didn't know the exact number, but pegged it somewhere between 1200 and 1800. Split the difference and you get the 1500 quote I've seen through various sources.

 

As for the lack of manual, I have a theory. Cheetahmen II reuses Action 52 carts with a single (typoed) sticker, and some didn't even get the sticker. All of that screams rush job to me. It's amazing they managed a box for it. I'm assuming they had boxes made, were going to do carts and manuals, but were losing money fast. So they slapped the boards into whatever leftover A52 shells were on hand, but the doors on Active Enterprises shuttered before they could do anything else.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Tulpa

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

1 hour ago, the_wizard_666 said:

The thing that derailed it was the fact that Active went bankrupt before they could sell the games.  Also, the lack of instruction manuals shows that it wasn't even really ready for release.  IIRC, it was Mike Etler (and/or his associates) that found them, pieced them together, and distributed them (I wasn't in the online community at the time, so I can't recall exactly... @Dr. Morbis may know...or know who might), but I do know the only reason it was ever included was because Etler (the sole source of the game) included it on the original list of NES games.  This is also why the Aladdin games are counted (at the time he was the sole source, though other supplies were found at later dates) despite never really having been "released" (though there's evidence that they were indeed sold in extremely small numbers before Camerica folded).  Anyway, Cheetahmen II was in no way produced in "large" quantities, as I don't even think there were 1000 units in the find, and there likely wasn't another "find" to be had at any point. 

Actually, Etler wasn't the sole source.  He was the first "major" source, as IIRC, he discovered a palette of the games and was selling them sealed through his store (or over the phone, shipped to wherever for a fee) for ~$50 each.  I found out about these, and the Aladdin bundles he had about two weeks too late, as I had to wait until my next payday to afford them after I found out about them, then discovered that they managed to sell out the last few units before I got paid again.  Then, a couple to few years later (it's been close to two decades, so forgive me), someone managed to find a literal trailer load (or equivalent) of them, similar to what happened with the Caltron 6-in-1 a few years ago, and they were all over again, albeit at generally a higher price ($100-150, again IIRC), with these selling out before I managed to get my ducks and responsibilities in enough of a row to be able to afford one.  Similarly, the rest of the hoard of produced Aladdin stuff was found shortly afterward, and I did manage to snag a couple of sets (one to open and play, and one "just in case"), although that stuff was either produced in vastly larger quantities than Cheetahmen II, or people had just soured enough on barely distributed unlicensed stuff at that point that it didn't sell nearly as well, as you can still find full sealed bundles for roughly what I paid for mine ~15-20 years ago.

I think Cheetahmen II counts, even if distribution was terrible, as the numbers were there, clearly a few got out at the beginning to clue Etler in, he moved a palette to get the community's appetites whet, and then they devoured all the rest as soon as the "motherlode" of the rest of the stock was uncovered and made available for sale (similar to what happened to the literal tractor trailer full of Caltron carts ~5-10 years ago).  It's not elegant, but if Racermate Challenge II is going to count with as few copies of that which exist and what incredibly limited distribution it had, I think Cheetahmen II begrudgingly earns a place as well.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

35 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

I remember a post by Etler himself on the old site.

He said that he was clued in by someone who either brought him a copy or who mentioned it (forget which), so he went to check it out. He found whoever owned the warehouse find was selling them to anyone who was in the know. A couple of flea market vendors were buying small quantities (so a few dozen did make it out aside from Etler's stash), but Elter decided to buy larger chunks. I also remember him saying that he didn't put them together, so either they came that way or whoever got them out of the warehouse put them together to sell them off.

He didn't take them all at once, but said it was like three separate purchases. He also didn't know the exact number, but pegged it somewhere between 1200 and 1800. Split the difference and you get the 1500 quote I've seen through various sources.

 

As for the lack of manual, I have a theory. Cheetahmen II reuses Action 52 carts with a single (typoed) sticker, and some didn't even get the sticker. All of that screams rush job to me. It's amazing they managed a box for it. I'm assuming they had boxes made, were going to do carts and manuals, but were losing money fast. So they slapped the boards into whatever leftover A52 shells were on hand, but the doors on Active Enterprises shuttered before they could do anything else.

Yeah, I knew I was a bit hazy on the details, which is why I left the door open for that.  1500 definitely isn't a huge release though, and all the minor details you mention lead to the "intended to be released but wasn't" theory.  Basically, Active went under, and since the warehouse was owed money, rather than destroying the inventory they salvaged what they could out of the stock that was left behind.  All of that leads itself to being a really fun footnote for collectors, and a cool oddity on the shelf, but definitely not something that should be classed as an official release.  If skids of Police Academy were found in the back of a warehouse and sold, that wouldn't make it an official release, even if the production was done back in the day, as the publisher didn't actually send the copies out themselves.  By the same token, I totally understand why Cheetahmen II was added to the list, as collectors from that era are generally all-or-nothing collectors.  That's why nobody has (or likely will ever have) a complete Atari 2600 collection...because a "full" collection includes everything, and those guys are fine with that.  That's why we don't count AGCI Wally Bear or Sharedata Chiller, despite the fact that they exist - because for those of us who want distributed retail releases rather than everything, the existence of one or two (or even 1500) copies of something doesn't prove it was distributed to the masses.  Unreleased is unreleased.  It's also why there's no question about Myriad 6-in-1 being a released game vs Cheetahmen II, despite Cheetahmen II having significantly more available copies in existence.  Myriad actually sold the game, whereas Active did NOT sell theirs.

2 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Actually, Etler wasn't the sole source.  He was the first "major" source, as IIRC, he discovered a palette of the games and was selling them sealed through his store (or over the phone, shipped to wherever for a fee) for ~$50 each.  I found out about these, and the Aladdin bundles he had about two weeks too late, as I had to wait until my next payday to afford them after I found out about them, then discovered that they managed to sell out the last few units before I got paid again.  Then, a couple to few years later (it's been close to two decades, so forgive me), someone managed to find a literal trailer load (or equivalent) of them, similar to what happened with the Caltron 6-in-1 a few years ago, and they were all over again, albeit at generally a higher price ($100-150, again IIRC), with these selling out before I managed to get my ducks and responsibilities in enough of a row to be able to afford one.  Similarly, the rest of the hoard of produced Aladdin stuff was found shortly afterward, and I did manage to snag a couple of sets (one to open and play, and one "just in case"), although that stuff was either produced in vastly larger quantities than Cheetahmen II, or people had just soured enough on barely distributed unlicensed stuff at that point that it didn't sell nearly as well, as you can still find full sealed bundles for roughly what I paid for mine ~15-20 years ago.

I think Cheetahmen II counts, even if distribution was terrible, as the numbers were there, clearly a few got out at the beginning to clue Etler in, he moved a palette to get the community's appetites whet, and then they devoured all the rest as soon as the "motherlode" of the rest of the stock was uncovered and made available for sale (similar to what happened to the literal tractor trailer full of Caltron carts ~5-10 years ago).  It's not elegant, but if Racermate Challenge II is going to count with as few copies of that which exist and what incredibly limited distribution it had, I think Cheetahmen II begrudgingly earns a place as well.

Most of this is already touched on, but Cheetahmen's distribution wasn't terrible, it was nonexistent.  Active Enterprises had no knowledge or involvement in the sale of their game.  The entirety of the find, whether or not it came solely through Etler, was made available by the warehouse where the game was stored, similar to a storage locker.  It's only out in the marketplace now because the warehouse didn't destroy them like what would normally happen.  Warehouses can get insurance payouts on dead stock, but only if it's destroyed.  Likely they decided they could make more by liquidation than by taking the insurance payout (or maybe there wasn't any insurance...quite possible in the case of a small company like Active).  Regardless, it's something that was never intended to see the light of day.  Racermate, on the other hand, had a limited distribution.  Hell, there's even evidence for an extremely small distribution of Aladdin stuff back in the day (mail order and such) before Camerica went under.  The thing about Cheetahmen II is that I'm pretty sure that outside of some internal documents with Active Enterprises, there is simply no information about the game's existence.  Usually you can find an advert or a mention in a magazine or something, but to my knowledge such things don't exist.  If Active was ready to distribute the game, you'd think they might've made mention of it, y'know, somewhere.  They marketed the shit out of Action 52 after all...

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

20 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Most of this is already touched on, but Cheetahmen's distribution wasn't terrible, it was nonexistent.  Active Enterprises had no knowledge or involvement in the sale of their game.  The entirety of the find, whether or not it came solely through Etler, was made available by the warehouse where the game was stored, similar to a storage locker.  It's only out in the marketplace now because the warehouse didn't destroy them like what would normally happen.  Warehouses can get insurance payouts on dead stock, but only if it's destroyed.  Likely they decided they could make more by liquidation than by taking the insurance payout (or maybe there wasn't any insurance...quite possible in the case of a small company like Active).  Regardless, it's something that was never intended to see the light of day.  Racermate, on the other hand, had a limited distribution.  Hell, there's even evidence for an extremely small distribution of Aladdin stuff back in the day (mail order and such) before Camerica went under.  The thing about Cheetahmen II is that I'm pretty sure that outside of some internal documents with Active Enterprises, there is simply no information about the game's existence.  Usually you can find an advert or a mention in a magazine or something, but to my knowledge such things don't exist.  If Active was ready to distribute the game, you'd think they might've made mention of it, y'know, somewhere.  They marketed the shit out of Action 52 after all...

Is there any actual documentation of this, though?  Even just via interviews from the creators?  I tried looking it up just now and keep coming up with people quoting "1500 units found in a Florida warehouse" but with zero source citations on such "facts," even on Wikipedia (quotes because nearly everything else save the origin of the cards and their number has documented sources).  At this point, without some documentation, sources, interviews with people there at the time, etc., I feel that we may just all be trading versions of "well, I heard..." from back in the day, similar to what happened with Flintstones 2 for forever.  I remember seeing at least one or two more sources beyond Etler, a couple/few years after he completely sold out (in ~1999, IIRC), who were selling massive amounts of sealed copies of the cart for 2-3x what Etler was, and via eBay, but at this point I only have my own recollection to go off of and sense of regret that, again, I wasn't able to put together the money to pick up at least on sealed copy before all those copies vanished (hence why I hopped on the Aladdin stuff the moment THAT hoard [re]surfaced).  If there was only one palette, and Etler bought it, where did the extra cartridges come from?  I recall Etler talking about how he was selling them a few a week for a few years, so I highly doubt that 1-2 individuals accumulated hundreds and hundreds (if not thousands, I really don't recall the number of units showing sold on the completed auctions I had bookmarked back then) only to flip them a few years after the original "release" ran dry.

Don't take this as me saying you're absolutely wrong and I'm absolutely right, just wanting actual documentation for all the claims, if anything actually exists.  I know I don't have any for what I remember seeing and running into back in the day, but a lot of what I've talked about matches up with the common narrative, even though it's not officially documented/verified anywhere.  I even tried digging through the "official" Cheetahmen website, and that didn't seem to comment on the original carts, their discovery, numbers, etc., whatsoever--odd for a site/group that should have the best, most immediate access to such details and figures (those which survived, either via actual documents or the recollection of the folks who were there at the time).

[Tulpa | 3,517]

My knowledge of it came from Etler's own post. He wasn't super active on NA, but he did post here and there.

Someone had posted some Cheetahman II info, and Etler corrected a few of the details; such as the nebulous number of carts and that he wasn't the only one selling them, he just sold the majority.

Unfortunately NA is gone now, but I like to think I have a decent memory.  I think it stood out to me because it was like "Whoa, straight from the dude himself."

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

24 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Is there any actual documentation of this, though?  Even just via interviews from the creators?  I tried looking it up just now and keep coming up with people quoting "1500 units found in a Florida warehouse" but with zero source citations on such "facts," even on Wikipedia (quotes because nearly everything else save the origin of the cards and their number has documented sources).  At this point, without some documentation, sources, interviews with people there at the time, etc., I feel that we may just all be trading versions of "well, I heard..." from back in the day, similar to what happened with Flintstones 2 for forever.  I remember seeing at least one or two more sources beyond Etler, a couple/few years after he completely sold out (in ~1999, IIRC), who were selling massive amounts of sealed copies of the cart for 2-3x what Etler was, and via eBay, but at this point I only have my own recollection to go off of and sense of regret that, again, I wasn't able to put together the money to pick up at least on sealed copy before all those copies vanished (hence why I hopped on the Aladdin stuff the moment THAT hoard [re]surfaced).  If there was only one palette, and Etler bought it, where did the extra cartridges come from?  I recall Etler talking about how he was selling them a few a week for a few years, so I highly doubt that 1-2 individuals accumulated hundreds and hundreds (if not thousands, I really don't recall the number of units showing sold on the completed auctions I had bookmarked back then) only to flip them a few years after the original "release" ran dry.

Don't take this as me saying you're absolutely wrong and I'm absolutely right, just wanting actual documentation for all the claims, if anything actually exists.  I know I don't have any for what I remember seeing and running into back in the day, but a lot of what I've talked about matches up with the common narrative, even though it's not officially documented/verified anywhere.  I even tried digging through the "official" Cheetahmen website, and that didn't seem to comment on the original carts, their discovery, numbers, etc., whatsoever--odd for a site/group that should have the best, most immediate access to such details and figures (those which survived, either via actual documents or the recollection of the folks who were there at the time).

1500 units would be multiple pallets, speaking as an experience warehouse dude.  I'm guessing roughly three pallets based on my experience (though that depends on how many units per case, cases per skid, etc...just doing a rough ballpark based on the size of a CIB and 20+ years of stacking pallets).  That said, the only real "documentation" I can recall was a post from NGD (iirc...he may have been quoting from someone else but I'm certain it was his post), after he interviewed one of the Active Enterprises guys, who was actually surprised to hear that Action 52 saw the light of day, nevermind Cheetahmen II.  There's plenty of documentation of Action 52's existence and release, but he was under the impression that they folded before delivery of the product.  Not saying that's proof Cheetahmen II wasn't released, but if he didn't know that Action 52 shipped, then the planned second cart likely was never intended to be shipped.  But sadly I don't have any saved data from that time...and if I remember right, this was back before NA's existence, and the site (NESForums) no longer exists to dig it up.  Sadly, that's pretty much all we have these days - the hearsay that's been going through the telephone game for so long that nobody really knows the truth anymore.  Regardless, there's enough anecdotal evidence in my mind to say it was never shipped, and the "release" was done by the warehouse that Active had storing their shit.

 

Just now, Tulpa said:

My knowledge of it came from Etler's own post. He wasn't super active on NA, but he did post here and there.

Someone had posted some Cheetahman II info, and Etler corrected a few of the details; such as the nebulous number of carts and that he wasn't the only one selling them, he just sold the majority.

Unfortunately NA is gone now, but I like to think I have a decent memory.  I think it stood out to me because it was like "Whoa, straight from the dude himself."

Yeah, Etler isn't really around the scene anymore, but I'm sure he still has friends that will point him to any major misinformation out there.  Like I said, I wasn't there at that time, as I didn't even own a computer (unless you count my PCjr) until around 2002 or 2003.  I must've missed that post on NA myself, as this is the first I've heard that anyone else had copies before him, but yeah, pretty sure he bought the bulk of the supply once he found out about it.  Frankly, the quantity available will likely never be known unless the warehouse still has their 25+ year old records.  Regardless, there are still more known copies of the unreleased Cheetahmen II than the confirmed release Myriad 6-in-1 (and quite possibly the Panesians as well).  That's the wonderful world of unlicensed games for ya eh

[Dr. Morbis | 2,091]

Original posting on rgvn, of the discovery of Cheetahmen II (excuse 25 year old formatting).  A couple hundred units had already been sold by the time Etler made an offer on what was left.  As a result, some copies did originally exist outside of Etler's distribution channels

 

From: Sean Roche (sroche@magicnet.net) Subject: Cheetaman Action Game! N This is the only article in this thread View: Original Format ewsgroups: rec.games.video.nintendo Date: 1997/01/20

1500 Cheetaman Action Game cartridges FOR SALE!

 

Retail at $24.95 ea FOR THE N.E.S.

 

Your price $1,500.00 for 1500 units.

 

Thats Right $1.00 ea if you buy them ALL!

 

Write or call today! boardwks@magicnet.net

 

407-834-1440.

 

30 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Regardless, there are still more known copies of the unreleased Cheetahmen II than the confirmed release Myriad 6-in-1 (and quite possibly the Panesians as well).  That's the wonderful world of unlicensed games for ya eh

There is no "confirmed release" of Myriad outside of a single thrift store box find twenty-plus years ago in Texas.  Myriad is in the exact same category as Cheetahmen II: either you count them both or you don't.  I personally count them because they were manufactured during the NES market era.  Likewise, if twenty-five-plus year old copies of Police Academy or Licensed to Kill games were suddenly discovered "ready to ship" by the pallet-load, I would count them too for the same reason, and for the same reason I count the Aladdins.  My distinction is pretty black and white: a made for retail game is either market era or after-market; that's pretty dang simple, isn't it? 

Edited April 26, 2022 by Dr. Morbis

[Daniel_Doyce | 475]

I bought a copy back in 1997 from the first Etler cache and found out about it from that USENET post. I still have my copy somewhere but haven't looked for it in all my boxes of crap for quite a while now...

[Dr. Morbis | 2,091]

15 hours ago, Daniel_Doyce said:

I bought a copy back in 1997 from the first Etler cache and found out about it from that USENET post. I still have my copy somewhere but haven't looked for it in all my boxes of crap for quite a while now...

I bought mine from Etler in 2000, and he didn't have many left at the time.  I had to pay $50, but I've heard he originally sold them for just $10 in 1997...

[fcgamer | 4,730]

20 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Original posting on rgvn, of the discovery of Cheetahmen II (excuse 25 year old formatting).  A couple hundred units had already been sold by the time Etler made an offer on what was left.  As a result, some copies did originally exist outside of Etler's distribution channels

 

From: Sean Roche (sroche@magicnet.net) Subject: Cheetaman Action Game! N This is the only article in this thread View: Original Format ewsgroups: rec.games.video.nintendo Date: 1997/01/20

1500 Cheetaman Action Game cartridges FOR SALE!

 

Retail at $24.95 ea FOR THE N.E.S.

 

Your price $1,500.00 for 1500 units.

 

Thats Right $1.00 ea if you buy them ALL!

 

Write or call today! boardwks@magicnet.net

 

407-834-1440.

 

There is no "confirmed release" of Myriad outside of a single thrift store box find twenty-plus years ago in Texas.  Myriad is in the exact same category as Cheetahmen II: either you count them both or you don't.  I personally count them because they were manufactured during the NES market era.  Likewise, if twenty-five-plus year old copies of Police Academy or Licensed to Kill games were suddenly discovered "ready to ship" by the pallet-load, I would count them too for the same reason, and for the same reason I count the Aladdins.  My distinction is pretty black and white: a made for retail game is either market era or after-market; that's pretty dang simple, isn't it? 

So where do you place Huge Insect?

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

32 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

So where do you place Huge Insect?

Huge Insect was released by Sachen, and like most of the Sachen 72 pin games, they were made to order and shipped to  whoever would order them.  That said, since all four printings were commissioned by people in the US and distributed by them, it's one of the only Sachen releases that can be definitively pinned as a specific US release.  That said, due to Sachen's publishing history, if someone in PAL-land had made an order, they likely would've made the exact same carts and shipped them the exact same way, as they did with every other release of theirs.  If anything, I think Sachen being region-free is the best option for them, as they didn't differentiate their games based on where the games were being sold.  As such, Huge Insect is a proper release as it was distributed by the actual publisher, and predates the homebrew era, however it can reasonably be counted as part of it's own set rather than any regional set, as there was no differentiation between regional releases by Sachen themselves.

Nice try shoehorning that dead horse back into the discussion though

[fcgamer | 4,730]

16 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Huge Insect was released by Sachen, and like most of the Sachen 72 pin games, they were made to order and shipped to  whoever would order them.  That said, since all four printings were commissioned by people in the US and distributed by them, it's one of the only Sachen releases that can be definitively pinned as a specific US release.  That said, due to Sachen's publishing history, if someone in PAL-land had made an order, they likely would've made the exact same carts and shipped them the exact same way, as they did with every other release of theirs.  If anything, I think Sachen being region-free is the best option for them, as they didn't differentiate their games based on where the games were being sold.  As such, Huge Insect is a proper release as it was distributed by the actual publisher, and predates the homebrew era, however it can reasonably be counted as part of it's own set rather than any regional set, as there was no differentiation between regional releases by Sachen themselves.

Nice try shoehorning that dead horse back into the discussion though

Actually done Sachen games had localised Italian boxes (NES), and st least one Game Boy cart had a German localised box...

The Huge Insect game was published by Sachen and distributed in America by Americans, if no other regions had got the game then it would be inappropriate to consider it a world wide release as the game wasn't released worldwide at all

[fcgamer | 4,730]

The reason I asked about Huge Insect, btw, had nothing to do with the other Sachens. I wasn't even thinking of that discussion when making my post, as arguably it is an American release, and that's not really disputable.

My question was more concerning how the game was unreleased, then released for the sake of collectors way after the NES was dead and gone in the States. And it wasn't even a pallet of unsold stock, rather was made specifically for these guys. Then again, it was done by the game's developer so...

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

26 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

The reason I asked about Huge Insect, btw, had nothing to do with the other Sachens. I wasn't even thinking of that discussion when making my post, as arguably it is an American release, and that's not really disputable.

My question was more concerning how the game was unreleased, then released for the sake of collectors way after the NES was dead and gone in the States. And it wasn't even a pallet of unsold stock, rather was made specifically for these guys. Then again, it was done by the game's developer so...

Yeah, I agree with it being a US release in this case, but it's a touchy subject that has been beat to death   But the reason I say it's a release is because Sachen themselves released it.  Sachen is a real company, and a known publisher/developer.  While the quantities are smaller than many homebrew runs, they also didn't make a finite run of them - if there was a fifth person who called and ordered 100 copies, there would've been a fifth print run and more than double the number of copies floating around than there already are.

A side note on Huge Insect though - it was released without a manual, which actually aids the consideration of Cheetahmen II as a release without a manual...that said, the fact that it wasn't Active distributing it kills that one in my view, but for those that don't care who released it, then it's not even the only release without a manual

[Dr. Morbis | 2,091]

3 hours ago, fcgamer said:

So where do you place Huge Insect?

The first run of Huge Insect was manufactured in 2001 - clearly within the "after market" era in my books.  As Wiz said, nice try, though...

If I had to draw the line in terms of date of manufacturing, I guess I'd go with 1995, as that's when the last unlicensed game (Sunday Funday) and last licensed game (Lion King) were first printed.  Yeah, I know that some PAL games had later print runs bleeding into 1996, but the last "new" NES titles of the era came out in 1995, so that's a pretty logical and concise end-point for me.  Heck, even Cheetamen II, being manufactured in 1993, predates those last few titles by a couple of years...

[fcgamer | 4,730]

1 minute ago, Dr. Morbis said:

The first run of Huge Insect was manufactured in 2001 - clearly within the "after market" era in my books.  As Wiz said, nice try, though...

If I had to draw the line in terms of date of manufacturing, I guess I'd go with 1995, as that's when the last unlicensed game (Sunday Funday) and last licensed game (Lion King) were first printed.  Yeah, I know that some PAL games had later print runs bleeding into 1996, but the last "new" NES titles of the era came out in 1995, so that's a pretty logical and concise end-point for me.  Heck, even Cheetamen II, being manufactured in 1993, predates those last few titles by a couple of years...

Huge Insect was made when though, 1991 or 1992?

Not much different from this one and Cheetahmen II, or even Police Academy.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

10 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Huge Insect was made when though, 1991 or 1992?

Not much different from this one and Cheetahmen II, or even Police Academy.

His argument is that the manufacturing of the game came in 2001.  Not the programming.  The definition fits.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,091]

16 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Huge Insect was made when though, 1991 or 1992?

Not much different from this one and Cheetahmen II, or even Police Academy.

The distinction that I've made pretty clear isn't about when the game/ROM was programmed, but when the actual physical product is made.  I'm well aware that Huge Insect was programmed in the early 1990's, but the physical copies in collector's hands today were all made in this century.  It's a pretty clear distinction to me.

If someone found/bought the rights to the Police Academy ROM and then whipped up some carts and released the game now in 2022, then it's an after-market game; however, if a pallet of sealed "ready for retail" Police Academy's were found that had been made in the NES era (like Cheetahmen II), then they would be legit NES era games in my books.  You may see things differently, and that's fine, but the distinction that I personally make to delineate what constitutes a NES era game versus an after-market release, is when the actual physcial game was made.

We've been arguing about this shit for 15 years, Dave, let's just agree that we see things differently and leave it at that.  I don't feel like getting into another longwinded NES argument with you right now...

Edited April 27, 2022 by Dr. Morbis

[fcgamer | 4,730]

1 hour ago, Dr. Morbis said:

The distinction that I've made pretty clear isn't about when the game/ROM was programmed, but when the actual physical product is made.  I'm well aware that Huge Insect was programmed in the early 1990's, but the physical copies in collector's hands today were all made in this century.  It's a pretty clear distinction to me.

If someone found/bought the rights to the Police Academy ROM and then whipped up some carts and released the game now in 2022, then it's an after-market game; however, if a pallet of sealed "ready for retail" Police Academy's were found that had been made in the NES era (like Cheetahmen II), then they would be legit NES era games in my books.  You may see things differently, and that's fine, but the distinction that I personally make to delineate what constitutes a NES era game versus an after-market release, is when the actual physcial game was made.

We've been arguing about this shit for 15 years, Dave, let's just agree that we see things differently and leave it at that.  I don't feel like getting into another longwinded NES argument with you right now...

Well iirc the Cheetahmen II games weren't sealed and boxes weren't folded originally, either, so that doesn't sound like ready for retail to me.

Regarding the Sachen situation, I think it clearly highlights why there is no definitive answer / formula that works all the time, everytime.

I'm not arguing here and I respect your response (thanks for answering my question, btw), rather I'm just wanting to offer another perspective as food for thought.

I feel the situation of manufacturing date at some point becomes a bit like splitting hairs, and this is why.

Sachen had been manufacturing carts from the start, and never stopped manufacturing carts (companies were still producing Famicom games regularly over here through the late 90s and early 2000s), it's a bit different than how the NES died.

That being the case, Sachen was making carts on the same machines they'd been making them during the early 90s. Furthermore, do we consider *all* of the NES Sachen carts aftermarket then? Must we open up carts and look at chip dates, to decide? Or do we just consider if it had an original box or not? That's not a good way for determination either though, as I have Sachen period stuff from the end, on Famicom, but it would still be considered period.

So it comes down to splitting hairs, sort of like distinguishing BIC vs Realtec famicom codemasters carts, etc. 

That said, while I agree with you that considering them period carts doesn't exactly fit, calling them aftermarket doesn't really work either, as then we'd have to call all Sachen games aftermarket.

[Alder | 243]

I never get sick of reading this debate, lol. I think the answer is subjective, but I would make a distinction between the physical product being produced VS assembled. Similar to the Wisdom Tree stuff, there was that time when Richard Garriott found a bunch of old copies of Akalabeth, pieced them together and sold them. Does that count as original? It depends who you ask, but for me it does. But even as the owner of the IP, if he were to suddenly start printing new copies, even with new old stock floppies and printer paper, it's a bit harder to justify it as original.