Is it better to let a guilty man walk free or better to punish one who is innocent?

[Californication | 1,490]

6 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

If the state cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a person is guilty, then that person should not be convicted.

The problem is not with rich people mounting a better defense that provides a better argument of reasonable doubt.

The problem is with poor people not being able to mount an adequate defense, or being steered/bullied into taking a plea agreement, where a conviction should have been avoidable.

I agree with you on the under represented point, that's a clear problem with solutions available. 

I disagree with you on the other point. I am not a lawyer, so I can't tell you how to fix it, but something isn't right on the top half. Whether we need mandatory minimums for white collar crimes, or some other way of selecting jury's idk. But guilty people are paying their way out of jail so the system is not working.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Californication

[phart010 | 1,708]

9 minutes ago, Californication said:

Those are not the only optional alternatives our court system is not sacrosanct. Our courts are broken at the bottom to people who can't get representation, they are broken to the top with guilty people with money can walk away with a slap on the wrist or a not guilty verdict, and they are broken at the supreme court.

Even if we acknowledge it’s flaws, what’s the alternative? I think in practice there may be faults in implementation at times, but on paper the system is pretty solid. 

[Tulpa | 3,537]

7 minutes ago, Californication said:

. But guilty people are paying their way out of jail so the system is not working.

If you look into those cases, there's always SOMETHING that the prosecution screwed up or was otherwise deficient in.

Again, it's not that the rich are buying their way out (because they can't if the prosecution has a solid case.) It's that the poor don't have the resources to achieve the same reasonable doubt in their defense.

[Californication | 1,490]

4 minutes ago, phart010 said:

Even if we acknowledge it’s flaws, what’s the alternative? I think in practice there may be faults in implementation at times, but on paper the system is pretty solid. 

I don't know what the alternative is, but it is hard for me to believe that people can't come up with a better one.

It doesn't seem solid to me since we have the highest incarceration rate in the world.

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

11 minutes ago, Californication said:

I agree with you on the under represented point, that's a clear problem with solutions available. 

I disagree with you on the other point. I am not a lawyer, so I can't tell you how to fix it, but something isn't right on the top half. Whether we need mandatory minimums for white collar crimes, or some other way of selecting jury's idk. But guilty people are paying their way out of jail so the system is not working.

White collar crimes are often very difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

That is just the nature of the beast.

This isn't "guilty people paying their way out of jail" -- this is just the nature of the types of crimes you seem to associate with rich people, and the fact that they are simply difficult to prove, because quite often you must prove intent.

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

1 minute ago, Californication said:

I don't know what the alternative is, but it is hard for me to believe that people can't come up with a better one.

It doesn't seem solid to me since we have the highest incarceration rate in the world.

Then quit spinning your wheels worrying about rich people getting away with white collar crime and worry about the real problem which is unequal (negative) treatment of certain groups within the justice system.

As you note - we have the highest incarceration rate in the world -- we should NOT be seeking to make it easier to incarcerate people.  Rather we should look for ways to incarcerate fewer people in the first place.

[Tulpa | 3,537]

2 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

White collar crimes are often very difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

Exactly. The Varsity Blues case took almost a year before they started charging people, and that was a pretty damn straightforward case when you get down to it.

Can't imagine how complicated stuff like the Trump Organization case is going to end up being when it all shakes out.

[phart010 | 1,708]

7 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

Exactly. The Varsity Blues case took almost a year before they started charging people, and that was a pretty damn straightforward case when you get down to it.

Can't imagine how complicated stuff like the Trump Organization case is going to end up being when it all shakes out.

Thank you for adding Trump into this discussion  
 

This way to the rabbit hole 🕳

[Tulpa | 3,537]

2 minutes ago, phart010 said:

Thank you for adding Trump into this discussion  
 

This way to the rabbit hole 🕳

Hey, he wasn't charged. The organization with his name on it was.

He's presumed innocent in this until proven otherwise.

[DoctorEncore | 3,691]

3 hours ago, TDIRunner said:

It is infinitely better to let a guilty person go free than to take the freedom away from an innocent person.  

 

Agreed. There is some nuance to specific situations, but the general principle holds true.

This is why the death penalty should be abolished. If even one innocent person is executed, then we have failed as a society. America is literally the only westernized country which still murders its own citizens on a regular basis. We love guns, violence, and death, but fear sex and nudity. Just look at this map of countries that still have the death penalty. Great company.

[Strange | 1,701]

Haven’t read the thread yet. The prison system in America is an atrocity.

[fcgamer | 4,754]

I know for a fact that Taiwan has the death penalty, and that some people were executed a few years back - with that said, I'm quite curious if Taiwan is being represented as its own country, or if it is being grouped in with China, for the Amnesty international map.

Edit: Just checked on the Amnesty International website report, Taiwan's listed as it's own country. It's quite curious how we can't get proper quantities of vaccines, and had the nation's reputation smeared by the WHO during the start of the Covid-19 pandemic, yet when it comes to executions, suddenly Taiwan is it's own independent and sovereign country.

Edited July 3, 2021 by fcgamer

[Estil | 1,265]

Wasn't there someone famous who said it's better for 99 guilty to go free than for one innocent to be punished?  Considering how often we hear about people being freed from prison when it was later found out they were innocent, that's all the more reason I can't get behind the death penalty.  Because even with all the due process safeguards supposedly in place, we STILL end up with people on death row (or God forbid, already excecuted) who turned out to be innocent.  Not to mention lethal injection, which was expected to be no different than putting down an old dog was well, not always exactly that.

So I believe the death penalty should be abolished not exactly out of moral/ethical reasons, but rather the old atage that if it can't be done right it shouldn't be done at all.

[Tulpa | 3,537]

4 hours ago, Estil said:

Not to mention lethal injection, which was expected to be no different than putting down an old dog was well, not always exactly that.

It's actually worse. Euthanasia for animals is an overdose of anesthetic, and tends to be painless.

Lethal injection uses three drugs; an anesthetic in high dose, a muscle relaxant to stop breathing, and a drug to stop the heart. Administer one in the wrong dosage (which happens more often than you'd think) and the death does not go smoothly.

[Tenjikuronin | 1,753]

15 hours ago, fcgamer said:

 

Edit: Just checked on the Amnesty International website report, Taiwan's listed as it's own country. It's quite curious how we can't get proper quantities of vaccines, and had the nation's reputation smeared by the WHO during the start of the Covid-19 pandemic, yet when it comes to executions, suddenly Taiwan is it's own independent and sovereign country.

 

I'm not surprised they would do this, Amnesty International has a known history of bias

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Amnesty_International

 

[Estil | 1,265]

6 hours ago, Tulpa said:

It's actually worse. Euthanasia for animals is an overdose of anesthetic, and tends to be painless.

Lethal injection uses three drugs; an anesthetic in high dose, a muscle relaxant to stop breathing, and a drug to stop the heart. Administer one in the wrong dosage (which happens more often than you'd think) and the death does not go smoothly.

Yeah that's what I meant.  I didn't remember the exact way it went.